Trial Discussion Thread #14 - 14.03.28, Day 16

[MeeBee]

Happy to agree to disagree.

:ditto:

 

[minor4th]

Thank you for the link!!!

Quoting your link:
"Vermeulen: I guess if we say other reasons, it might ...

Nel: Let us speculate, you're asked to speculate - could it have been to scare someone? Is it possible?

Vermeulen: If we speculate, it's possible.. (chuckle). We also cannot prove that that mark was caused during the unfortunate incident.

Scare is the word that was used. But frankly that is even more horrific than threaten. Anyway I hope this issue is now settled!!!

Note the words "speculate" and Vermuelen's reluctance to speculate - and they are talking about a kick mark - and whether someone could kick a door to scare the person inside. No suggestion that a cricket bat was used to scare someone - and that's because even the state knows that the cricket bat sounds were after the gunshots.

 

[Viper]

Viper - I've scrutinized this photo of the toilet room window (the small window to the left), and I can't tell if it's open or closed. I remember Roux claiming it was closed, and Nel didn't object, so I'm thinking it was closed. What do you think?

http://juror13lw.wordpress.com/

Sorrel below is the image that I referenced. I am on my mobile phone so I can't enlarge it very much, but it looks open to me:

http://juror13lw.files.wordpress.co...indows-white-circle-indicates-open-window.png

 

[minor4th]

Not that I know much but I would have thought that the fact that Oscar passed a test knowing that if he shot through a locked door 4 times knowing that there was someone behind it (there must have been screams) could be perceived as him wanting to kill that person. Is that then not premeditate murder?

Sure he wanted to kill who he thought was an intruder come to harm him.

That is not premeditated murder

 

[minor4th]

I totally understand your point. I think it's a valid one, which was why I addressed it.

My point was and still is: there never was a smoking gun and there never will be a smoking gun with regard to the State's CIC, and I was simply reminding folks of that fact.

IMO, expecting a smoking gun, after Mr. Nel stated that the case and evidence is largely circumstantial, is not an expectation that can be solely attributed to whomever is supposedly "convinced" of OP's guilt. I think the same argument can be made for whomever is on the fence, as well as for anyone who presumes him to be innocent of the charges.

The State is not required to overcome the burden of unreasonable doubt or to prove their case beyond a shadow of a doubt.

I understand what you're saying - yeah, there was never going to be a smoking gun, so I should have put it differently. You're right about that.

 

[MeeBee]

I don't know why people keep putting up Batman's speculation as evidence that Oscar used the bat or kicked the door or anything to scare Reeva, when it was clearly something he had no idea either way of. A hypothetical was put to him and he agreed, because, of course, anything is possible.

 

[minor4th]

I don't know why people keep putting up Batman's speculation as evidence that Oscar used the bat or kicked the door or anything to scare Reeva, when it was clearly something he had no idea either way of. A hypothetical was put to him and he agreed, because, of course, anything is possible.

And the hypothetical and speculation was not even about the cricket bat - it was about the kick marks!

ETA: You see how clever Nel was with what he did there? He's got all these people believing it's the state's case that the cricket bat was used to scare Reeva before the gunshots ullhair:

 

[sorrell skye]

Sorrel below is the image that I referenced. I am on my mobile phone so I can't enlarge it very much, but it looks open to me:

http://juror13lw.files.wordpress.co...indows-white-circle-indicates-open-window.png

I agree it definitely does appear to be open in that photo, as I can clearly see the interior windowsill (on the bottom) without any part of the lower window obscuring it.

This lends credence to the ear-witnesses' testimony that they heard Reeva's terrified screams. Roux asserted that the toilet room window was closed, ergo the witnesses couldn't have heard her scream.

I think the toilet room window was open. TY for posting that pic!

 

[MeeBee]

And the hypothetical and speculation was not even about the cricket bat - it was about the kick marks!

ETA: You see how clever Nel was with what he did there? He's got all these people believing it's the state's case that the cricket bat was used to scare Reeva before the gunshots ullhair:

Well, apparently he's even better than Roux himself at obfuscation! The hypothetical could have just as well been put to him in the other direction and he'd still have to agree to it because he wasn't there.

 

[minor4th]

I agree it definitely does appear to be open in that photo, as I can clearly see the interior windowsill (on the bottom) without any part of the lower window obscuring it.

This lends credence to the ear-witnesses' testimony that they heard Reeva's terrified screams. Roux asserted that the toilet room window was closed, ergo the witnesses couldn't have heard her scream.

I think the toilet room window was open. TY for posting that pic!

I think it is accepted by both sides that the toilet window was closed.

 

[minor4th]

If anyone is up for a little mock trial of Oscar's upcoming cross examination by Nel, throw out questions you think Nel should ask Oscar that will reveal something beneficial to the state's case - and we'll see if we can come up with hypothetical answers that either that either expose Oscar's version as false or that explain it in a plausible manner.

 

[sorrell skye]

I think it is accepted by both sides that the toilet window was closed.

Has Nel stated that the toilet window was closed? Unless he has, IDK that I agree that both sides accept that. I'm interested to know, one way or the other.

That toilet window, from that angle, looks open to me. But we all know that angles can be deceptive - harking back to Roux and his ridiculous cross when he insisted that the cricket bat had been moved because of the different camera angles.

 

[MeeBee]

Has Nel stated that the toilet window was closed? Unless he has, IDK that I agree that both sides accept that. I'm interested to know, one way or the other.

That toilet window, from that angle, looks open to me.

You mean before the shooting? I think Nel needs it to be closed because the window sliding open is apparently what alerted Oscar. But maybe I'm misunderstanding and should just step outside lol.

 

[east2west]

Think i am ready to put down my theory as to what i believe happened please note this is my opinion only.

I believe they were arguing and i believe the route of the argument was jealousy, i don't think it's disputable from those messages we saw a few days back that either Oscar is a jealous and insecure person or at least was a jealous and insecure person during his relationship with Reeva.
I believe the cause of his jealousy this time was Reeva's meeting with her ex Warren Lahoud, i know there is a text in which Oscar appears to give her the o.k to meet him, what i read from this is at some point Reeva made it clear that he had to change his jealous way's, i think this was him really fighting those jealous urge's, but from personal experience with a jealous person, the monster always seems to rear it's ugly head.
You see those messages and you can imagine how Reeva having coffee with an ex must have chipped away at him and eventually the urge to question overpowered him.
I believe they argued about it and she wanted to leave, he got to that point she mentioned a few weeks before in the whatsapp message where he "scares her", she locked herself in the toilet, he went wild outside with the cricket bat on his stumps the whole time, and at some point here the first set of sounds(only noted by the stipps) were heard(possibly the wall tiles or metal panel) she's screams for help, he mocks her cries for help(as heard by Charl Johnson Burger "the man seemed to be embarrassed about shouting for help"), i don't personally believe that at the point where he first picked the gun up he intended to use it, i believe it was originally intended to be a scare tactic, but during the argument whilst she was locked in the toilet she said something that totally tipped him over the edge and before he knew it he'd fired 4 shots......

And so we finally arrive.

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk

 

[sorrell skye]

You mean before the shooting? I think Nel needs it to be closed because the window sliding open is apparently what alerted Oscar. But maybe I'm misunderstanding and should just step outside lol.

OP claimed he heard the bathroom window sliding open - not the toilet room window. To date, OP hasn't said anything about the toilet room window.

 

[MeeBee]

OP claimed he heard the bathroom window sliding open - not the toilet room window.

Ok, wait a minute, so there is a toilet room window!

lol, this is not relevant to now but to an earlier conversation. Someone led me to believe there was no window in the toilet room and I thought I must have been taking crazy pills.

But anyway I understand now, carry on. I'll be outside.

 

[Gavel Rash]

Bathroom scene....

Those jeans outside the bathroom window on the ground could have been left drying over the window sill by Reeva, as we also see her toiletry bag at edge of bath. Could she have had a shower earlier placed items in room, as we don't really now what she was wearing in the car on arrival at 6pm, just the same singlet shirt. So she had shower drapes pants over sill, maybe she rinsed them? Oscar in his rage and side angle swing knocks them from ledge and also causes the tiles to fall.

If we speculate the bat swings first, which swing would have come first? The one from side, the one from more in front? Was the bath plate the first sound? Or was it the tiles falling?

The Stipps never heard the argument voices as they are at rear and argument was in bedroom at the front of house so only the Merwe witness heard it.

I had for a small moment ought he may have locked her in but no she had locked door and key never fell out she had it in her hands. Because that was why he had to pull panels out so he could lean over and get it from floor...again we have no photo evidence shown of his torso or any scrapes on his belly indicating this. I would love to see some close ups of his six pack hey?

 

[sorrell skye]

If anyone is up for a little mock trial of Oscar's upcoming cross examination by Nel, throw out questions you think Nel should ask Oscar that will reveal something beneficial to the state's case - and we'll see if we can come up with hypothetical answers that either that either expose Oscar's version as false or that explain it in a plausible manner.

Since you're proposing this mock cross-examination - I nominate you to go first.

What questions would you ask OP if you were Nel?

 

[Gbtaketwo]

If anyone is up for a little mock trial of Oscar's upcoming cross examination by Nel, throw out questions you think Nel should ask Oscar that will reveal something beneficial to the state's case - and we'll see if we can come up with hypothetical answers that either that either expose Oscar's version as false or that explain it in a plausible manner.

I think there will be a very long list by the time everyone has finished . It would probably take me all night to type up .
Just a few for starters
Did he not mind when Reeva got into bed with the clothes she had been wearing after doing her yoga session . Not very romantic for a couple so in love on the eve of Valentines day
He states he heard a window sliding but not a door closing and the key being turned .
Why didn't he whisper to Reeva to take cover or evasive action before he left the room .
Why didn't he hit the panic button if he was panic stricken when he heard the noise that he believed to be a burglar
Why did it take him so long to pick up the fan from the balcony .

 

[MeeBee]

Bathroom scene....

Those jeans outside the bathroom window on the ground could have been left drying over the window sill by Reeva, as we also see her toiletry bag at edge of bath. Could she have had a shower earlier placed items in room, as we don't really now what she was wearing in the car on arrival at 6pm, just the same singlet shirt. So she had shower drapes pants over sill, maybe she rinsed them? Oscar in his rage and side angle swing knocks them from ledge and also causes the tiles to fall.

If we speculate the bat swings first, which swing would have come first? The one from side, the one from more in front? Was the bath plate the first sound? Or was it the tiles falling?

The Stipps never heard the argument voices as they are at rear and argument was in bedroom at the front of house so only the Merwe witness heard it.

I had for a small moment ought he may have locked her in but no she had locked door and key never fell out she had it in her hands. Because that was why he had to pull panels out so he could lean over and get it from floor...again we have no photo evidence shown of his torso or any scrapes on his belly indicating this. I would love to see some close ups of his six pack hey?

I think the panels were busted wide enough for him to just fit through.