Trial Discussion Thread #26 - 14.04.15, Day 23

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Yes, have the same hunch. On direct exam OP said when he got home that day (RS already there), the doors were locked and the dogs were "running around the house." Sounded like he was definitely not happy about that. Unfortunately the judge interrupted and asked him to speak louder -- at that point Roux moved away from that topic (understandably). I know it's a small point, but I do think he was angry from the get-go when he got home. Then if RS challenged him at all, he might have been like -- who do you think you are? You use my home (i.e., does her wash there)...... escalating to get out of my house.... All speculation on my part of course.

JMO

I also caught hint of a general bad mood. For example, he kept saying he was tired, he was tired. He just wanted to go to sleep. (Of course, he could have just been saying that to get the Judge to believe he actually went to sleep).

So IDK. Does anyone know if he had a workout/training earlier in the day?
 
Reeva had already been at his house, when he was not there, to do laundry and some work. OP was not there when she arrived the first time. Text messages show this.


Thanks I do remember reading something about her doing laundry at home now.
 
OP, Truth and Lying

At the start of Nel's cross I believe it was (or 2nd day), Nel was asking if OP will tell the truth.
Oscar replied,"I will try to tell tjhe truth Milady."

Based on what he said the day before iirc, about his life being on the line wo he has to figure out where Nel is going before he will answer.

All this including the connotation of 'trying' is tantamount to Oscar sayng he will lie when he feels he has to.
Thus in Oscar-Speak, he was telling the tuth when he indicated that he will only try to tell the truth--in other words, he truthfully told the Court, that he will lie when he feels he must.

And he did not disappoint.
 
Anyone from South Africa, is there an 0 that can be dialed in an emergency instead of the 911? Or something similar that is just one number?
 
May I help you: Mr. Stipp said, a figure with light upper part crossed the window from the right side to the left.

Correct and if OP was wearing that light grey "wife beater"(that's what they're commonly called in my part of the world) undershirt that was beside his bed, that would fit the description. Especially since Mangena had measured OP and he is 1.55 not 1.1 metres on his stumps. 2.5cm=1 inch so 45cm=18 inches, correct?

http://www.enca.com/south-africa/oscar-trial-was-pistorius-telling-truth
Mangena also asked for Pistorius’s measurements -- 155cm tall on his stumps and his shoulder at 123cm and elbow at 96cm. His height with his prosthetic legs on was 1.84m and his shoulder height was 156cm. His arm length, held out straight with the hand in a grip position, was 66cm.
 
Except for the testimony to consider--a witness hearing one. A witness who has nothing at stake in the outcome of the trial.

Several witnesses testified to hearing different things. How do you decide which witness' testimony is given the most credence? Certainly not by choosing the one's testimony that best fits your conclusion. That is simply confirmation bias, not sorting objectively through the evidence.

IMO the witnesses that heard different things basically nullify each other.
 
Well, yes - I would agree if it was just a card which she might have kept in her handbag until it was time for her to leave. But there was also a package containing the gift. What would she have done with it in the meantime? Seems feasible that she would have given it to him, or put it down somewhere, with the admonition not to open it till tomorrow. Anyway it's not really important.

I don't think it did the defence any favours to close with it like they did. In fact I think it would have been more effective for the prosecution to have closed with it!

I started reading this thread at 10pm and it is now 2.19am and I'm only half way through so decided to read from the end and go backwards so please make allowances as not read the previous few posts on this subject. When the incident happened last year I seem to remember the News on TV showing a present wrapped in pink paper left in the living area by Reeva to be opened on the Day by OP. Is my memory playing up and I'm mistaken?

Going to turn the lights out as need to try to get some sleep!
 
Here's another thing that points to Reeva NOT having her phone with her in the toilet room, the phone was locked. Now if someone fired the first shot at me and it hit my hip and I have my phone with me that phone will be unlocked and 911 would have been dialed.

Remember, there was a pause between the first shot and the final three.

MOO

Assuming you had time.

She didn't.
 
OP, Truth and Lying

At the start of Nel's cross I believe it was (or 2nd day), Nel was asking if OP will tell the truth.
Oscar replied,"I will try to tell tjhe truth Milady."

Based on what he said the day before iirc, about his life being on the line wo he has to figure out where Nel is going before he will answer.

All this including the connotation of 'trying' is tantamount to Oscar sayng he will lie when he feels he has to.
Thus in Oscar-Speak, he was telling the tuth when he indicated that he will only try to tell the truth--in other words, he truthfully told the Court, that he will lie when he feels he must.

And he did not disappoint.

BBM

And apparently OP felt that he must lie about anything that he is charged with, such as,

the sunroof gun firing incident
the Tasha's incident
the bullets that were in "his safe's" possession

Why would we expect him to be honest about the biggest charge he is facing? The one that has the longest sentence, killing Reeva.

MOO
 
We should check her testimony again. I thought it was Mr. Johnson who identified Oscar crying. Not saying I'm right. These witnesses all merge into one after a while.

It would go a long way if a witness could identify them specifically as the ones having the fight. And, we need two witnesses. But I'm not sure we have that.

It was Mrs van der Merwe quoting her husband, who has not so far testified in person. Perhaps he will.
 
I wondered that too. How could he have known it wasn't working on that night? He wasn't there! Do we know the exact date he tested it?

I think he gave date in testimony.
But again was not asked why the light was not working.

Obv. if it were to DT's advantage they would have got him to expand.
So maybe something trivial like a broken light bulb.
But we don't know, unless someone testifies to how/why light was not working.
 
I also caught hint of a general bad mood. For example, he kept saying he was tired, he was tired. He just wanted to go to sleep. (Of course, he could have just been saying that to get the Judge to believe he actually went to sleep).

So IDK. Does anyone know if he had a workout/training earlier in the day?

No, I don't think he did. He said he got up early to beat the traffic out of Pretoria for his 10 am meeting in Johannesburg. He said he wasn't training because of his injured shoulder.
 
I know this was probably debated to death already and I'm late to the game as usual, but RS writing "I Love You" in a Valentine's Day card is not a commentary on their relationship, it's a statement of her feelings at the time she signed the card.

That's it.

She very well could and likely did love OP. Not that he deserved her love, but that's her feeling at the time, on that day. It had nothing to do with his feelings. And it certainly is no guarantee of the quality or healthiness or viability of their dating relationship. And when she wrote him messages telling him she was "afraid of him," that too was her feeling at the time she wrote the messages. I'd say since he killed her, the "I Love You" card ultimately meant nothing to him, but that might be taking it a step further than it needs to go.
 
But she doesn't know for sure who she was hearing or what she was hearing, does she?

She can't identify it as Oscar and Reeva.

She testified that she heard loud voices arguing and about an hour later Reeva was gunned down. In a case of circumstantial evidence, one has to consider the evidence plus common sense to connect the dots.
 
The "I didn't go through Reeva's bag" statement.....

I find that typically when someone offers up that they did not do something before it is asked of them, before anyone suggests that they or someone else did something, that they in fact did do what they are saying they did not.

So why was it so important to OP to let everyone know that he did not go through Reeva's bag when he went upstairs to get it for the paramedics?
 
I have a problem with self-reporting. It is often, especially when delivered in personal defense, self-serving. OP serves himself by making a case for his being terribly in love with Reeva, her not as much into him, and their relationship being mutually loving.

Doing so counters the theory he would be so enraged at her as to harm her. His claim that he was more in love than she garners sympathy and once again, goes to his not wanting to intentionally harm a person he is so besotted with. AND, let us not forget, Oscar is not only a gun-grabber, but a blamer. He gets ticked off, overwhelmed and off goes the gun through thee sun-roof, at the dog. And then it's all someone else's fault and he didn't do it, or not willfully. The tenor of his testimony about his feelings for Reeva and their relationship inequity implies that she's to blame for his shooting her. He was just trying to protect her, so mistakenly killed her to do so. IF (and remember, Oscar is covering bases in advance) it's established to any probably degree he did mean to kill her or scare her or reflexively shot but without lethal intent it's he we should feel sorry for and she who had the upper hand in the relationship, loved this worthy person less...In the OJ case, the jury felt Nicole had beatings and her killing coming to her. In a variety of ways, the defense made this case. Thus, jury nullification.

But the interesting thing is how transparent Oscar's strategy is in casting himself as the martyred one in a star-crossed love affair. That he doesn't see how others might perceive his testimony goes to a streak of the sociopathic in his character. Before the uproar--I did say streak. And I do not man to indict all sociopaths, in any case, as homicidal. Most are good salespeople, politicians, money embezzlers... A hallmark of the character disorder is blatant lying with seemingly no care for the fall-out ("I'll think about that tomorrow") coupled with an inability to read other people's emotional responses. Though this can undermine their credibility, it can also, paradoxically, lead others to be so incredulous that they will say "why would he/she commit to a glaring falsehood, when the truth could be determined later, or say something so appalling? He/she must be telling the truth as he/she knows it. He/she, in the second case, must not MEAN what she/he said. It's a slip.

I have a problem with those who believe wholesale what Oscar reports. Many (not all) who end up with criminal charges are, if not "born liars," sociopathic ones who acquire the habit to avoid the consequences of their anti-social behaviors.

Nel is trying to show this about Oscar. And since it's a cunning, baffling, and powerful trait he does well to do so.

EXCELLENT POST!!!!!

ITA.

Thank you for wording this so well.

This is not to go against anyone on here, but sometimes I feel like there is a bit of "underdog" aspect to why some people want to believe him. Since most on here think he's guilty, as well as most in the general population, it's natural for some to want to root for him.

I think if this was a jury trial, there might be one or two who semi-believed him or just didn't think it was proved beyond reasonable doubt. Or they might be sort of sheltered jurors who can't fathom someone lying so much. Especially with his sobbing sessions. Especially with Oscar's celebrity status, I feel jurors would think long and hard about their decision. But I think those one or two would be convinced by the majority, and the end verdict would be unanimous for Guilty.

JMO.
 
BBM

And apparently OP felt that he must lie about anything that he is charged with, such as,

the sunroof gun firing incident
the Tasha's incident
the bullets that were in "his safe's" possession

Why would we expect him to be honest about the biggest charge he is facing? The one that has the longest sentence, killing Reeva.

MOO
lawsuit from 2009 assault of former gf at his home proceeding
OP called winning rival "cheater" - Sept 2012
sunroof incident - Sept. 2012
confrontation with VdB - VdB takes out protective order -
confrontation with MB - fracas - OP says needed head stitches
restaurant incident - Jan. 2013
killed Reeva - Feb. 2013
 
Only one big problem with the "accident" defense.

The accused provided direct non-impeachable testimony that he was not shooting at an intruder.

So which shot was the accident? The first that hit her hip? Maybe the second that hit her arm?

And the fourth shot the exploded from the gun by itself that hit her brain? Was the fourth shot an accident?

Remember, OP testified he was NOT shooting at an intruder.

So we have a dead body, and a confessed killer who denies he was shooting in self-defense.

What exactly is his defense then?

Yes but Oscar was simply (implausibly) saying that he wasn't shooting at anyone. The judge can not possibly do the cerebral gymnastics to make Oscar's statement to mean that he was shooting at Reeva.

He is dissociating himself from the act of pulling the trigger not killing Reeva. Yes it is an irreconcilable position to hold. But that is what he is saying.
 
If you did not watch Roux try to help OP recover today, and I would bet many did not, here is what was said:

Roux to OP: When you were standing with your firearm pointed at the door, what emotions did you feel?

OP: I was terrified. I feared for my life. I was scared. I was thinking about what could happen to me and to Reeva. I was just extremely fearful overcome with a sense of vulnerability.

Roux to OP: When you heard the Noise that you interpreted to be the door opening. What was the feeling or the emotion that you experienced?

OP answers: It was complete terror and helplessness.

Roux asks him to repeat his answer because Roux couldn't hear (lie). OP just did not repeat the script properly.

OP then says: Not having anything to be able to do my lady, not being able to defend myself.

Pistorius did not sound convincing about his fear and need to defend himself. He didnt even cry when he described his feelings and emotions. This is a farce. Game over. Sorry.
 
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