Trial Discussion Thread #31

[Greater Than]

This 'coffee date' is what the argument was all about IMO..it was just the day before he killed her......OP is jealous.

He certainly does have anger management issues, doesn't he.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...t-slammed-broke-door-party.html#ixzz2xZq2HWeq

 

[Jake18]

I'd like to know what others believe is the most compelling evidence against Oscar? And has the defence/State made you rethink your position at all, even for a moment? If the defence/State could put forth any evidence at all, what might sway your mind? And lastly, what's the one piece of evidence not explained you want an answer to?
______________________
The State had me at the screams. Now, I have a huge issue with the forensic testimony. I have had a few moments of hesitation in cross with a couple of the crime scene guys - Vermeulen was one. I think the defence could only make me reconsider by providing a logical account for those screams (instead of a man screaming like a woman while yelling like a man while crying and not screaming at all) and why the defence timeline doesn't appear to match the blood spatter and pathology findings. I want something that makes sense to sink my teeth into. And the one item of evidence I want the real story of is the blood in the bedroom.

(Sorry for the length. I look forward to all your thoughts.)

Please pardon errors as posted via Tapatalk with a less than stellar user.

Good post : The state had me at the screams as well and the sheer implausibility of Reeva being mute that whole time.
Oscar saying he saw Reeva's "breathing" during cross as well - I personally think the stress of cross brought that out and it is the truth, it's unlikely to be something you'd forget. If he saw her breathing then he saw her seconds after the gun shots, not after running up and down corridors, screaming etc and shouting off balconies. IMO he either prised the damaged door apart or could already see her.

I'd like an explanation for the jeans, the internet connection on Oscars phone for 5 minutes at 0148 - it's never actually been stated whether that was manual or not and I agree, the rubbish bags and rope. Torn up rubbish bags would prob make a great tourniquet but I don't get the covering up the body thing at all. And it seems so disrespectful.

 

[jay-jay]

I wish there was somewhere where we could look at the photo's in the order which they were taken and numbered because it does get very confusing when you see pictures like this .was this taken when they were trying to piece the door back together ?
Others I have seen have shown several pieces torn out .

Yes, I was thinking exactly the same .. I think it's much more difficult for us on here trying to work things out than it would be if you were in court/the judge/one of her assessors, because they have access to all that information all in the correct order whereas we are trying to work things out without fully knowing exactly which ones come where in the sequence .. although they do get confirmed along the way, it only needs another photo posted from another external site to throw the spanner in the works again and then we end up having to try and work out where in the sequence that photo was taken. I'm getting too confused by it :scared: .. I think I might sit out on any of the photographic evidence from now on .. I'm more interested, anyway, in what kind of hard evidence the judge has (and which makes all the other evidence such as photos, etc, not that important) .. I'm pretty sure she has the smoking gun in her possession but it's not something we or the court have been made party to!

 

[Mr Fossil]

This one is even more insidious!
It indicates that my postings on this matter were read.

And I have made myself clear. .
I have said that Nel 'stipulating about the DT having the 5th phone for 16 days has been excised from all vidoes.

I said that youtubes of that day start with the witness testifying and not the judge walking in.
All that the video you posted has--more insidiously-- shows the judge walking in [which I am not interested in obviously per se] and skips Nel's stipulation about the 16 days making it look like he didn't do that!

So it's not there in what you posted. Period.

Since it's been excised from all videos.
Is there a way to get a transcript showing this?
And not that Sky one, I already checked it's not there.

I ask that people not to post a set of videos [or a single one] and claim something is there. if you actually have a single video of Nel talking on the 16 days missing of the 5th phone only, please post.

But this one should be compared to the youtube session 1. All this site has that is different is the judge walking in prob. from reading my posts here!!

I recall watching the live transmission on this day and the video link I posted reflects what I recall watching. Nothing has been cut in my opinion. What is your source for Nel's stipulation and it therefore having been cut?

 

[shane13]

I recall watching the live transmission on this day and the video link I posted reflects what I recall watching. Nothing has been cut in my opinion. What is your source for Nel's stipulation and it therefore having been cut?

I saw it, and the stipulation on the 16 days is known to have been stated first by Nel and then Roux.

That is when the world first found out how long DT had the 5th phone. Cat can't be put back in the bag.

 

[patCee]

Compelling for me: screams; 4 shots; faint light in toilet; OP not checking for presence of RS; Blood in bedroom; 5th cartridge in toilet bowl; OP's history of tantrums; previous reckless behaviour; delayed call for medical help; 5th phone; locked toilet door. illegal ammo.

Questions: Jeans o/s; what OP told Netcare; bat/shots sequence; could OP see RS when he shot her.

I can't think of anything the defence could show that would change view of PM.

 

[sleuth-d-]

I think there is a mug on the left hand bedside table in the 2 photos shown in Van Rensburg's testimony on Day 11 Part 1 (displayed at around 56:00 in http://www.wildabouttrial.com/one_off/oscar-pistorius-trial-archive/)

also:
empty gun holster on the left hand bedside table...
op version' he reached under the bed for the gun.
where under the bed was the gun? on the left hand side? has it ever been said where exactly his gun was 'under the bed'?

was the gun under the bed but not in a holster?

i feel the need to listen to see if op mentions the holster at any point...

 

[kaos]

I am sorry but if my brother had just shot his girlfriend dead in any scenario the last thing I would be worried about is his stupid watch. This kind of goes to the mind set of the family I guess?

The police report about the mssing watch may be pretty standard if the OP definitely knows there's a watch missing and might have been encouraged by Van M to report it as such but I'd be curious to know if he's since made a claim on insurance for it and what date as that to me would show how he was more worried about the watch than he was his dead girlfriend.

I'd also completely forgotten about Reeva's sandals being found on the left hand side of the bed. Which now means OP's prosthetics, vest and gun are all on the balcony side of the bed and yet we're to believe he spent the night on the left hand side?

Another thing I failed to notice until looking at some of the recent photos were the horizontal blinds on both the bathroom and toilet windows and I don't recall at any moment of OP's testimony that he heard the blinds moving - which they most definitely would have and they'd also be quite loud.

 

[sleuth-d-]

I found this pic of the left hand side of the bed, but I can't make out a cup on it.

https://mobile.twitter.com/AlexCrawfordSky/status/445497547516542976

note:
the pillow
does it look like a pillow that has been slept on for 5 hours?

imo. no.

 

[Trooper]

The missing watch.... for a security fetishist , self proclaimed.. why weren't those watches safely locked away in the safe, considering he'd heard the 'noise' in the bathroom at least twice before this murder? ..

I often toy with the idea that Oscar actually wanted a break-in sometime soon. A chance to fire at a human target.. watermelons don't scream. He certainly made it easy for anyone who was inclined to muck about getting inside that housing complex.

 

[sleuth-d-]

Yes, but I didn't see any photos. I'll check again. I suspect I know where I might have gone wrong, as numbers are involved.

left bedside table, coffee cup, holster.

 

[shane13]

Shane Thank you, I did see your post about the hernia, I just forgot it was from you earlier this evening.



Very compelling points, that phone was removed and tampered with in a sophisticated manner, imo.

BBM

Well and succinctly written. That is one of my points. 16 days would not be needed to get it to some local yokel hacker in Joburg, and then back to Nel and Co.
from the getgo I believe that it was intel or such. Now that could have required 16 days to fly it out and back, etc JMO

 

[Trooper]

I'd like to know what others believe is the most compelling evidence against Oscar? And has the defence/State made you rethink your position at all, even for a moment? If the defence/State could put forth any evidence at all, what might sway your mind? And lastly, what's the one piece of evidence not explained you want an answer to?
______________________
The State had me at the screams. Now, I have a huge issue with the forensic testimony. I have had a few moments of hesitation in cross with a couple of the crime scene guys - Vermeulen was one. I think the defence could only make me reconsider by providing a logical account for those screams (instead of a man screaming like a woman while yelling like a man while crying and not screaming at all) and why the defence timeline doesn't appear to match the blood spatter and pathology findings. I want something that makes sense to sink my teeth into. And the one item of evidence I want the real story of is the blood in the bedroom.

(Sorry for the length. I look forward to all your thoughts.)

Please pardon errors as posted via Tapatalk with a less than stellar user.

for me, it was the hours after the reporting of the crime.. 4 shots. That's it. As things have unfolded, it became as concrete for me. His bail hearing was an introduction to a crime that was going to be played out among heavy hitters with no holds barred and so it is turning out to be so.

From Mrs VanderMewre's testimony of the argument, that went on intermittently for about an hour before the shooting, it appeared it was going to be just another ordinary murder, man loses temper with woman, fires gun and kills her, then is frightened of consequences.. and nothing has changed in that respect.. because that is precisely what it is. A very ordinary murder, one done every 8 hours in SA and not much less in the USA. Its not a complicated story, either..

The only thing unusual about it, but not very unusual, just a tiny bit is the short time they knew each other.. but in that short time, there was big trouble, a fundamental difference in perspective that had inbuilt into it an escalating differential in expectations..


There really is nothing that could change it, for me. I suppose if a man and woman close to the house gave testimony that it was them arguing and eventually screaming in synchronicity with OPs firing his gun, maybe..maybe..

 

[BritsKate]

also:
empty gun holster on the left hand bedside table...
op version' he reached under the bed for the gun.
where under the bed was the gun? on the left hand side? has it ever been said where exactly his gun was 'under the bed'?

was the gun under the bed but not in a holster?

i feel the need to listen to see if op mentions the holster at any point...

It seems the gun was on the left-hand side? (I've seen both under and by) In his recollection of the bedtime routine...he says he put it by the bed, climbed into the left hand side, after Reeva told him to brush his teeth (still weird). Note: One media report puts it under the left-hand side specifically; others say under the bed; and I honestly don't have it in me to rewatch Oscar's testimony. And we still only have his word for it.

He specifically recalled removing the gun from the holster before he whispered/soft spoke to Reeva to get down. He has two holsters...one was found on the table, left hand side. The other in a bedside cabinet on the right hand side. Flip flops/thongs and overnight bag on left. Prosthetic legs, vest and Oscar's ipad on right. Here's some links that may help further:

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlin...rius-timeline-of-how-he-shot-reeva-steenkamp/
http://www.dailymaverick.co.za/article/2014-04-08-pistorius-trial.-week-five-day-two/#.U1ewGPldWMM
http://www.citypress.co.za/news/flip-flops-next-oscars-side-bed/
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/08/oscar-pistorius-trial-tuesday-8-april-live

 

[sleuth-d-]

1. The minute the details emerged on the 14th Feb, re: closed door, 4 shots etc - I was sold. (I will admit my prejudice towards the accused in this matter, as I was in no way surprised when it was his name mentioned as being the 'accused') The witnesses (Burger, Johnson, Stipp and Stipp) sealed the deal - primarily because they are independent witnesses, professionals with nothing to gain - but MUCH to lose by testifying (privacy, the attacks from the hysterical Pro Oscar Pistorians etc). The fact that there WERE slight differences in their testimonies was soothing, as this makes it less than likely that there was collusion.(Contrary to what Barry would allege).

2. The DT would have to pull out video footage from the 13/14 Feb 2013, in real time (and verified as TRUE footage by 1000000000000 experts from around the globe), from a hidden security camera - clearly showing us the entire incident from start to finish. This might sway me somewhat :scared:
However, Oscar would still be guilty of the FCA related charges.


3. Vermeulen was the least effective of the state witnesses. However, I do believe much of his testimony was both 'lost and mixed up' in translation. Wollie Wolmarans (for the DT); ballistician, is going to come across much the same I predict. Without a translator, his evidence will be gibberish. WITH a translator, still gibberish. Pity M'lady speaks no Afrikaans at all. Vermeulen suffered (with a few others) and Wolmarans and the DT are next.


4. Evidence I want explained for my own peace of mind: Damage to the bedroom door and Oscar's prosthetic legs. The jeans outside the bathroom window. Oscar's actions after the fact, including the presence of black plastic bags and ropes. The 5th phone as per Shane13.
Why Oscar's torso had no blood on it. Hylton Both kept insisting he had a shirt on, now it's all 'bare naked with not a smudge of blood'.
Bugs me. Did he wash his torso with permission? Or was he wearing a bloody shirt as per Botha.

point 4 above. brilliant list.
i would add why the dogs were never heard?? which is most likely irrelevant but has always bugged me.

 

[Trooper]

point 4 above. brilliant list.
i would add why the dogs were never heard?? which is most likely irrelevant but has always bugged me.

why would the dogs bark??? there was no intruder!!

 

[Cape Town Crim.]

point 4 above. brilliant list.
i would add why the dogs were never heard?? which is most likely irrelevant but has always bugged me.

Another good point. The dogs.

One could keep this list going forever; so many things to be questioned. And this on it's own is proof that something is rotten in the state of Oscar.

**I did a little mobile phone light test a few nights back. I stood in our main bedroom and walked down the passage (rather long) away towards our 3rd bedroom right at the bottom. My husband had his back turned towards the passage, and he saw shadows dancing on the walls in front of him and on the sides of him like it was a 1999 festival of llight.

No ways he wouldn't have seen that. He has no legs below the knee, he isn't blind is he?

 

[lithgow1]

why would the dogs bark??? there was no intruder!!

Thanks as I'd forgotten that! In the surreal business of trying to fit OP's version into something resembling real life I need to be reminded from time to time that it's all built on the foundation of the 'intruder' lie.

 

[Cape Town Crim.]

why would the dogs bark??? there was no intruder!!

The dogs didn't bark because there was no intruder - that is the issue and more evidence of his BS story in general. For his story to be true, the dogs would have HAD to have barked IMHO; in friendly excitement even; or playful growling - at least once. Even friendly dogs react vocally when someone pitches up?
Even if it's a 'whine'.

The only intruder there was, was Oscar; the most lethal intruder of all.

They know the truth, those animals.

 

[Viper]

point 4 above. brilliant list.
i would add why the dogs were never heard?? which is most likely irrelevant but has always bugged me.

BIB. I imagine that the arguing started, or continued, downstairs in the kitchen or game room. And OP would naturally let the dogs outside for natures call or just to let them get away from the two people arguing. I don't believe they would bark at whatever their master was saying if they were outside; but I do believe that they would bark if they saw the argument become physical.

ETA: I also suspect that the dogs were scared to death just hearing two people arguing, especially their master, it must have completely freaked them out!