NH NH - Elizabeth Marriott, 19, Durham, 9 Oct 2012 - # 8 *S. Mazzaglia guilty*

[04009margaret]

None of the forensics that testified said they did tests on the kleenex. Would have been good to know whose it was.

Now I'm confused, wasn't the blood stained tissue from the case they were discussing at the time, not the LM case?

 

[AnnieMagnolia]

Very important testimony right here

Witness descriptions are very consistent with ligature strangulation homicide and not consistent with smothering. Bags tied to head and neck after the fact change nothing.

Why didn't he ask about the bags being tied prior to death????? Again, state is going on testimony of four people who benefit from the truth not coming to light. Tying bags on a dead person makes no sense and of course would not change anything. Tying plastic bags to someone who is alive.....that is what I would have liked to have heard.

Perhaps Barth will ask these questions. As KM has already admitted to tying them it would be a logical place for him to start his cross.

 

[geevee]

I appreciate your response here but disagree with your findings. They are using the words and stories of known liars to determine method of death. While just questioning this ME, the state is describing "lay persons" descriptions and asking for a cause. None of the four people who were in that apartment have come clean with what actually happened.

I cannot believe one word KM says, I do not believe all the tall tales SM has told to anyone and everyone. All of their testimony is tainted to protect themselves and cannot be relied on, imo.

Did you see how fast Paul changed his story under cross from SM using the boxcutter to remove the bags to him ripping them off with his hands? This indicates to me that he is lying. These were Hanniford grocery bags and to have them tied exactly in the same place as the mark on her neck is unlikely unless they caused the marks.

BBM

True, but just because they caused marks on her neck does not implicate them as the cause of Lizzi's death. I should think that if the bags had been the cause, there would be marks on her body of being held down/struggling, she isn't going to lie there and allow bags to be tied over her head and simply succumb to death, don't you think?

 

[Luv Justice]

I believe she was strangled with rope and the bags were put on later.

I agree. If true what Paul said Seth could have been getting rid of rope in dumpster behind convient store and even harness if used.

 

[geevee]

Now I'm confused, wasn't the blood stained tissue from the case they were discussing at the time, not the LM case?

No, I didn't hear anything about tissues in the M.E. example discussions, I mentioned them earlier when the M.E. stated that one of the suffocation victims had bleeding around the nose and mouth. I don't recall anyone yet testifying about the tissues that were recovered with the underwear and gloves.

 

[04009margaret]

No, I didn't hear anything about tissues in the M.E. example discussions, I mentioned them earlier when the M.E. stated that one of the suffocation victims had bleeding around the nose and mouth. I don't recall anyone yet testifying about the tissues that were recovered with the underwear and gloves.

I now realize from your first post about the tissues & DNA testing you weren't talking about the tissues being from that case LOL My dah moment before I go to sleep, it's 2:32 am here

 

[borndem]

The testimony about a rope being involved hasn't been proven, imo. The marks around Lizzi's neck, according to both Roberta and Paul were directly under the bags that were tied tightly on her neck.

There was no sign of ropes in the apartment or on the body according to the same two witnesses. Did police find the ropes anywhere? Maybe I missed this part of the testimony.

I can't recall their being found, either, Annie -- maybe we both missed it...

Did they dump them? We'll never know. If they were used on her, IMO they would have dumped those precious ropes.

 

[AnnieMagnolia]

I can barely use a plastic grocery bag to pick up dog poop without it ripping on my fingernail. Wouldn't it be a lot easier to do with a rope than with a plastic grocery bag?

My grocery bags always have little holes in them so I have to double up for cat litter removal. So, if they were trying to smother her with a grocery bag and it wasn't working because there were small holes, they might pull another one on top and tie them tightly around her neck.

Could they have used a date rape drug to accomplish this? No immediate neighbors heard anything from that apartment so I would think yes. I can hear everything my abutting neighbors are doing, unfortunately.

 

[Luv Justice]

Thank you Queen. I just think the parents of Lizzi are the ones suffering the most in this and for the State to subject the mom to verify no seizures? Couldn't a life long friend or a family physician, anyone else testify @ no seizures? I just don't like putting mom in this position.

Way more effective emotional impact to jury for mom to testify and she must have wanted to or she could have declined. She did this for her beautiful daughter who was taken too soon by these souless, narcisstic,evil people.
I agree with youthat the parents have been the ones suffering the most.God bless them for being there every day.

 

[zoey]

Why didn't he ask about the bags being tied prior to death????? Again, state is going on testimony of four people who benefit from the truth not coming to light. Tying bags on a dead person makes no sense and of course would not change anything. Tying plastic bags to someone who is alive.....that is what I would have liked to have heard.

Perhaps Barth will ask these questions. As KM has already admitted to tying them it would be a logical place for him to start his cross.

perhaps---what they saw were some involuntary movements after death and thought she was still alive---? I'm with the group that they used a rope--liars and all

 

[AnnieMagnolia]

BBM

True, but just because they caused marks on her neck does not implicate them as the cause of Lizzi's death. I should think that if the bags had been the cause, there would be marks on her body of being held down/struggling, she isn't going to lie there and allow bags to be tied over her head and simply succumb to death, don't you think?

Being strangled with anything would cause someone to struggle, fight, claw trying to save themselves. There is a possibility of drugging her, or stuffing her mouth with something prior to killing her to keep her quiet. I find it hard to believe that no immediate neighbors heard anything on a Tuesday night at 10pm.

I don't see the need to tie bags so tightly around a dead person's head. What is the point. If she is dead and you don't want to look at her, just pull the bag over the head, no need to tie it at all.

 

[borndem]

I do not see how it is even possible that the bags tied around her neck strangled her to death. That really makes no sense.

A bit graphic below:

Agreed, minor. It could be that she was already near death -- and sometimes when there is brain damage, the body will continue to produce saliva, but the throat is unable to swallow well or completely. Or it could have been breath sounds coming from the dying Lizzi. Either can make an awful noise (testimony by an M.E. in a previous trial where strangulation was involved, and discussed with a good pal who is an M.E.) -- not loud, but constant and gaggy-sounding (please forgive), so maybe they wanted her dead, and used the bags to hide her discolored face and the noise.

At least we have learned that smothering would not have produced the discolored face.

 

[Coldpizza]

New thread peeps, this one will be closing in 5 minutes.

NH - Elizabeth Marriott, 19, UNH Durham student, 9 Oct 2012, Mazzaglia chgd w/murder - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community


Lunch is served btw :smile:

 

[zoey]

I now realize from your first post about the tissues & DNA testing you weren't talking about the tissues being from that case LOL My dah moment before I go to sleep, it's 2:32 am here

I can barely stay up till ten---I'm impressed!

 

[borndem]

I believe she was strangled with rope and the bags were put on later.

So do I -- I can't see those two not bringing out the ropes. Not with this golden opportunity. No way. MOO.

 

[angiefly2]

My grocery bags always have little holes in them so I have to double up for cat litter removal. So, if they were trying to smother her with a grocery bag and it wasn't working because there were small holes, they might pull another one on top and tie them tightly around her neck.

Could they have used a date rape drug to accomplish this? No immediate neighbors heard anything from that apartment so I would think yes. I can hear everything my abutting neighbors are doing, unfortunately.

A neighbor did testify that they heard a woman scream.

 

[AnnieMagnolia]

I can't recall their being found, either, Annie -- maybe we both missed it...

Did they dump them? We'll never know. If they were used on her, IMO they would have dumped those precious ropes.

Since the ropes indicate a sexual act gone too far, manslaughter perhaps, I don't see the point of getting rid of the ropes. They would help that story that she was partaking in a dangerous sex act and it went too far.

Getting rid of the plastic bags would make more sense. Those don't look like anything but murder.

I think we have heard from these four about Plan A and Plan B. I think Plan C was to cover your own butt and tell whatever the hell you want to. If everyone has a different tale, how can anyone be convicted?

 

[borndem]

Agree. Anybody see the hanging/strangulation scene in 'Girl with a Dragon Tattoo'? The guy is being hung but the bag around his head affords him some air and he continues to struggle.

IMO rope was used to strangle Lizzi, incapacitate her and the bags were to make sure she was dead.

^^^^ Agree 100%, CUCKOO.

 

[AnnieMagnolia]

A neighbor did testify that they heard a woman scream.

That woman was in another building altogether. I am talking about the people who's apartment walls are physically connected to their apartment.

 

[Skigirl]

I appreciate your response here but disagree with your findings. They are using the words and stories of known liars to determine method of death. While just questioning this ME, the state is describing "lay persons" descriptions and asking for a cause. None of the four people who were in that apartment have come clean with what actually happened.

I cannot believe one word KM says, I do not believe all the tall tales SM has told to anyone and everyone. All of their testimony is tainted to protect themselves and cannot be relied on, imo.

Did you see how fast Paul changed his story under cross from SM using the boxcutter to remove the bags to him ripping them off with his hands? This indicates to me that he is lying. These were Hanniford grocery bags and to have them tied exactly in the same place as the mark on her neck is unlikely unless they caused the marks.

We have forensic testimony that is more consistent with a rope than with a plastic bag as cause of death, a simple thought experiment would suggest that it would be harder to kill someone by placing a plastic bag over his/her head than wrapping a rope around the neck, and in my opinion, it doesn't seem very plausible to me that either method of death would be more likely to be accidental (we aren't talking about a hand over the mouth and a pinched for supposed breath play, but strangulation, complete with ligature mark). We also have both witnesses saying there was a rope involved (unless I'm misrecalling what SM has said about the death).

If someone already has a deep indentation around the neck (all eyewitnesses that have spoken agree on that), and you put something over the head and tie it around the neck, the thing that is tied around the neck second would naturally settle into the furrow that had already been created.

I can imagine any number of reasons why the bags were put there (didn't want to see the face, wanted to make sure the job was done, didn't want RG to be able to identify the victim and didn't count on her having her handy-dandy box-cutter in pocket or wanting to see the face), but as the initial weapon, can't see it.