Holly Bobo found deceased, discussion thread *Arrests* #6

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Sorry, but all due respect to your faith in the DA, Tugela is right on target. BASED ON WHAT WE HAVE SEEN (which is what "appears to be"), this DA has a case that could be based on perhaps-coerced testimony and virtually nothing more. If that's the case, then it's easy to understand all the big DP intimations by the DA, as one approach when you lack substance is to try to amp up the intimidating talk and see if it nets a much-needed confession or three.

From where we sit, with the combination of "big talk by the DA" and "utter lack of evidence that we know about," anyone can draw whatever assumptions they want. It's a blank slate, basically, and what you conclude is simply because that's what you want to see, not because we have anything to support it.

Tugela sees the utter lack of evidence (that we know of) and the pattern of DA big-talk behavior and thinks it indicates a DA who's trying to use intimidation to coerce testimony and confessions due to a lack of anything solid. And that may be exactly right. You see the same combo decide that there must be a boatload of unknown evidence. And you may be right instead.

Frankly, at this point, it's only assumptions and our bias about this DA. He has no track record - he's just a guy who got elected and has talked a big game. Time will tell whether he has the goods, or whether he's all hat and no cattle.

I tend to lean toward the side of the DA being honest in his public statements. At the end of the day he is a politician and is pursuing a career. Talking about a case like he has lots of evidence and then having nothing to back it up would be pretty stupid in the long run. Why would he do it? Why pick a losing fight?

Regarding the "utter lack of evidence that we know about", can't we say that this is the case with every case without "sunshine" laws? It would certainly seem to be the norm for the uninvolved bystander (like basically everyone on Websleuths) to know the very minimum of the evidence prior to the actual trial. Why should this be any different?

One question- can we confirm that SA and JA have waived their right to a speedy trial? If so, how does that fit in with the "DA Stowe is all talk, no evidence" scenario? If you didn't do the crime and thus are positive the law doesn't have any real evidence against you, in what scenario would you waive the right to a speedy trial?
 
I have to believe that the defense teams have had enough time at this point to go through at least the crucial points of evidence against their clients. If there is not substantial evidence I think they would already be screaming from the highest hilltop. If nothing else be asking for a reasonable bond for Zach Adams. Not that they would get it but they are not even asking. As for withdrawing charges of tampering against Dylan and the P half-brothers I believe those were brought at least prematurely. To make those stick prosecutors would have to disclose evidence they have against ZA and JA, which they are not willing to do yet. When the evidence is revealed it will undoubtedly be sickening. Why should the family have to hear it in court time after time?

JMO's
 
I tend to lean toward the side of the DA being honest in his public statements. At the end of the day he is a politician and is pursuing a career. Talking about a case like he has lots of evidence and then having nothing to back it up would be pretty stupid in the long run. Why would he do it? Why pick a losing fight?

Regarding the "utter lack of evidence that we know about", can't we say that this is the case with every case without "sunshine" laws? It would certainly seem to be the norm for the uninvolved bystander (like basically everyone on Websleuths) to know the very minimum of the evidence prior to the actual trial. Why should this be any different?

One question- can we confirm that SA and JA have waived their right to a speedy trial? If so, how does that fit in with the "DA Stowe is all talk, no evidence" scenario? If you didn't do the crime and thus are positive the law doesn't have any real evidence against you, in what scenario would you waive the right to a speedy trial?

The DA may be telling it straight. Or he may not. We really don't have a track record to know either way.

As for whether he would tone it down for political reasons if he had weak evidence, I doubt it. All that matters is that he gets a conviction, politically. Plus, if he has weak evidence, one way to bolster it is to get confessions, and that comes from making big boasts rather than appearing weak.

About the utter lack of evidence that we know about, I tried to make it clear that I was commenting on "appearance." It's accurate to say that "appearance" says they have nothing more than perhaps-coerced confessions. But, as I pointed out, the fact that we simply don't know what we don't know means that when we get to trial, it could be compelling evidence or it could be less, and anyone's opinion on what we'll see at trial is simply unsupported assumption.

Re a speedy trial, I haven't heard either way. But yes, in most circumstances, if the case is super-weak the defendant wants to get his "not guilty" asap and be left alone. That's not a hard and fast rule, however, as sometimes it's hard to accurately read into such a decision because there can be a lot of factors at play. (For example, if there's a veritable "mountain" of collected evidence, but it's all pretty much crap, the defense might not be in a hurry because they need to make sure they don't miss something troublesome in the huge pile.) And if there is a mixed bag of evidence, some good and some very exculpatory, then it can motivate more time being desirable. We can't forget that, for the most part, the defense only gets one bite at this apple just like the prosecution does.

Also, re SA, last I heard, there is no trial for him. No charges so far afaik. Just lots of talk.
 
As for withdrawing charges of tampering against Dylan and the P half-brothers I believe those were brought at least prematurely. To make those stick prosecutors would have to disclose evidence they have against ZA and JA, which they are not willing to do yet.

I don't buy that, for two reasons. (1) It's not as if they are able to avoid showing their hand here. Disclosure laws mean they have already given everything they have to the defense, including whatever they might have been using in the Pearcy case. (2) When it comes to the main trials, the existence of a video, if already proven in court, would be a huge piece of evidence. That imo was their angle for the Pearcy charges in the first place, and their inability to make a case cuts a huge hole, which makes me believe they never had a real Pearcy case to start with.
 
IMO you nailed it. There is one part of this whole process that rings a false note to me, over and over, which is the fact that the DA keeps playing to the crowd, but it's all bravado. Lots of talk about how strong the case is, how they might even seek the DP, how they have tons of evidence, lots and lots of talk.

Here he announces what they are considering, and there is no legal or procedural reason for him to have done so. In my experience, if you're holding 4 aces (either playing poker, or in court), you don't brag about what you might do with your hand. You just go through the process and play it out.

Repeatedly, his actions tell me he's trying to play to an audience, which raises lots of questions in my mind. My take is that he's either trying to gain points with the community for the next election, or create a reaction with the defendants.

Every DA that I have seen speak out tells the citizens and the victim's family when they are considering a death penalty.

It is known to the citizens before they decided whether to do it or not. He/she doesn't just spring it on the community. He is doing the exact thing he should be doing by having a team of death qualified experts to examine the case. That is the way most DAs do it.

So he is no different than any other DA who is deciding a case and whether it should be a death penalty case or not.

As far as what 'we know' the same thing would be said about most of the cases discussed here since rarely (unless it is in Florida) do we get to see any evidence or documents before a trial is held.

Just because we don't know what the evidence pertains certainly does not make the case weak nor the DA inept either.

There is no need for us to know prior to trial and that is why we don't know any of the evidence in this case nor do we know in most others either. Assuming the case is weak when we haven't even seen the evidence is ridiculous imo.

So imo, Tugela, is incorrect. It is foolish to assume they have no evidence based on the fact that this DA and law enforcement agency happens to be like most like them who do not divulge any of the evidence before trial.

If that was truly an indicator then just about every case discussed here before the trial would end up NG per the naysayers who don't know what the evidence is and we sure know that doesn't happen often even though the same things were opined in many of those cases as well.

And yes, I do take the words of the DA who is going to try this case. Do I think he is dumb? Nope. Do I think he is an honest man? Yep. Do I believe him when he tells his citizens that the evidence is voluminous? Yep. Do I think he wants to commit political suicide by bringing a weak case that will be his most high profile one of his career? Absolutely not.

I don't have to assume what the DA has stated. Those are verified words and I am sure he stands behind his words. Thinking the case is weak based solely on 'what we don't know' is a weak assumption.

He will not go at your pace. He is a man of his own design and when the time is right he will do it then. He knows he has a certain amount of time to decided if he is going to seek death or not. It shows he is calm and methodical as he should be. I really don't care how long it takes him and I don't have to know the evidence he says he has either.

I have patiently waited for many trials to commence so at that time the evidence could be entered properly on the witness stand in a court of law as it should be. I also will not be shocked when it is mind blowing to realize just how much evidence they have against these two although I am sure some will be. There always seems to be a few that really think a DA will bring a case based on absolutely no evidence other just the words of criminals.

IMO
 
As far as what 'we know' the same thing would be said about most of the cases discussed here since rarely (unless it is in Florida) do we get to see any evidence or documents before a trial is held.

Just because we don't know what the evidence pertains certainly does not make the case weak nor the DA inept either.

There is no need for us to know prior to trial and that is why we don't know any of the evidence in this case nor do we know in most others either. Assuming the case is weak when we haven't even seen the evidence is ridiculous imo.

So imo, Tugela, is incorrect.

Tugela is indeed correct, because Tugela was commenting on what things "appear" to be, and the appearance is that there is no evidence beyond some supposed eyewitness stuff that hasn't been publically vetted either. Period.

What is real, rather than appearance? We don't know. Yet.

One can argue until they're blue in the face that they BELIEVE the DA must have some good evidence, but they have to base that on pure assumption, because we haven't seen any of it at all (if it even exists). No one in the general public has. And the person with the polar opposite view, who wants to believe there is no such evidence, has just as much validity to their opinion - - either view comes from whatever one chooses to assume, at this point, and doesn't derive from any actual facts in this case.

<mod snip>.
 
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fran
:seeya:
 
I will repeat my own take on this, because people here keep putting words in my mouth that I have NEVER said - not once - and then ask respectfully that those who are doing so, please pay attention to what I am saying and please stop trying to put words in my mouth that I am not saying.

I am not saying - and have not said - that LE lacks good evidence. Never said it. Not once.

I am simply saying that, while some may choose to ASSUME the evidence that LE has is good, any such belief is derived from pure assumptions layered on assumptions at this point. The same is true for those who ASSUME that there must be nothing since that's all we've been offered. We lack any public knowledge of anything, frankly, other than some supposed eyewitness stuff that hasn't been vetted in public either, but you don't know what you don't know. Some may assume they have what they need, some may assume they don't, but when you have nothing factual either way, any conclusion of where this "must be" going has gotta come from personal bias to get there.

There is one thing we do know. We do know that the actions and facts we the public have so far give the APPEARANCE that the DA has diddly and is making it up as he goes. The appearances are what we see, and we see nothing compelling so far.

So, lacking anything more than the nothing we have, means it's writing our own scripts with our own invented endings on this novel, for now.

As for what we might use to prove the lack of evidence indicates one conclusion or the other, again it takes assumption layered on assumption to go anywhere with this nothing that we have to work with. Some may base their bias and assumptions on the DA, but objectively we must admit there's no way to know that he's great or lousy, as he's brand new on the job and doesn't have a track record. (If you like his speeches, or if you don't, again that doesn't indicate competence or lack of same - some talk the talk without the walk, others can deliver on bravado - we just don't know about this guy.) Some may base their bias and assumptions on other cases elsewhere, but objectively we must admit that's not this case. Some may simply think that LE wouldn't try to convict anyone who isn't guilty, but objectively there's no evidence in that at all. Some may see charges being made and being dropped, and "arrests are imminent" being said with nothing following, as indications that the case is a loser, but that also requires an assumption that what has transpired with the secondary figures is representative of the big picture.

If some opine where this is "sure" to go, in either direction, I'll continue to observe that we have nothing to really support that. It's all assumption on top of assumption. I'm not saying they are wrong, only that they are simply opining using their own assumptions to get there. Eventually we'll have a trial, and there will be a case with good evidence, or there won't, but for now no one KNOWS nuthin'.
 
Shayne Austin has surfaced.....

Evans, Austin's attorney, sent the following statement to News 2 about his client's situation:

"Mr. Austin's misplaced inclusion into this case has been devastating. To be on the receiving end of a witch hunt is a tremendous load for anyone to endure. It's a shame that the State has been so reckless when making allegations against my client regarding his supposed involvement in this case, especially when the allegations are without merit. Mr. Austin had nothing to do with the tragic circumstances that befell Holly Bobo. He has remained cooperative with law enforcement throughout the investigation, and the State has presented no proof to support the allegations against him. Instead, they make unfounded accusations and threats of arrest. It is my client's sincere hope that both the false accusations and threats of arrest will stop. Resources need to be focused on facts, not speculation, so that those responsible can be held accountable. Justice for Holly Bobo cannot be attained at the expense of innocent men."


He is scheduled for a hearing on the criminal suit on Dec. 2 at 10 a.m. in front of Judge Creed McGinley.

http://www.wkrn.com/story/27319157/lawsuit-aims-to-restore-immunity-for-man-in-holly-bobo-case
 
The above was just reported on our 6 pm news out of Nashville.
The rest was just a repeat of more of the same.
 
Can someone quickly refresh me on what the december court dates are??

The news report I just posted about Shayne Austin says that ZA, JA, and DA will all be in court Dec. 17th.
 
The failure to present means JP has NOT been indicted, they're not even trying to indict, and there really is no case against him at this point. The fact they are still regarding him with suspicion is fairly meaningless blather, although perhaps unfair and somewhat slanderous to taint him without giving him his day in court to expose their utter lack of proof, but unfortunately they are free to do so until they either put him on trial or the statute of limitations expires.

The fact that they haven't actually dismissed the investigation, keeping JP in "suspect" status, does assure one thing: they have ruined any chance they might have of getting info from JP on the Holly case, if he has any or comes across any. As long as they're trying to find something against him, he's not ever gonna talk.

All this exposes what's been going on with the Pearcy case. The DA never had any real evidence BARD. Obviously, he hasn't somehow lost what he had, nor has it suddenly lost its value in court, so that indicates he never had anything compelling to begin with AND THEY KNEW IT, despite all the big talk to the media. Once it got to "put up or shut up" time, the DA whimpered away while muttering excuses.

This is yet another demonstration that, at least when it comes to the peripheral characters, these arrests and LE proclamations so far have appeared to be more about PR and intimidation than about having real evidence that can convict BARD.

I hope they have something more substantial than big-but-hollow talk when it's time for the murder and kidnapping crimes. Holly deserves justice, not LE playing games and hoping to get by without evidence.


I am really disappointed in the way this case has been handled from the beginning and until now.

They may ultimately be successful in prosecuting this case however the way they have gone about this is very scary.

It seems not long ago, they dragged 5 or more people into jail and implied all of them had some sort of involvement in Holly's murder. Then slowly but surely things begin changing. Some have charges dropped and they are released. Some have charges changed. Some that they were trying to make deals with end up being much more involved. Other deals they try to back out of themselves. What a mess.

And now we are down to just a few that seem they may be directly involved.

I really hope they prosecute the right people in this case and not destroy other people's lives if they really did not have any involvement. Some of the people they originally hauled in may not be the best charcter people but they should not be publicly accusing people of involvement in this case if they really had nothing to do with it.

The confusion and disarray in this case is just incredible.
In the end, I just hope the right people get prosecuted and any that had no involvement need to be left alone.
 
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tia
fran
:seeya:

I guess this is intended as a hand slap for the new guy, me. Problem is, if you delete the post, I can't even look back and determine where I failed to meet the TOS. If possible, can you message me my post and point out what led to the conclusion that the poster rather than the post was being disagreed with? tia
 
Sorry, but all due respect to your faith in the DA, Tugela is right on target. BASED ON WHAT WE HAVE SEEN (which is what "appears to be"), this DA has a case that could be based on perhaps-coerced testimony and virtually nothing more. If that's the case, then it's easy to understand all the big DP intimations by the DA, as one approach when you lack substance is to try to amp up the intimidating talk and see if it nets a much-needed confession or three.

From where we sit, with the combination of "big talk by the DA" and "utter lack of evidence that we know about," anyone can draw whatever assumptions they want. It's a blank slate, basically, and what you conclude is simply because that's what you want to see, not because we have anything to support it.

Tugela sees the utter lack of evidence (that we know of) and the pattern of DA big-talk behavior and thinks it indicates a DA who's trying to use intimidation to coerce testimony and confessions due to a lack of anything solid. And that may be exactly right. You see the same combo decide that there must be a boatload of unknown evidence. And you may be right instead.

Frankly, at this point, it's only assumptions and our bias about this DA. He has no track record - he's just a guy who got elected and has talked a big game. Time will tell whether he has the goods, or whether he's all hat and no cattle.

IMO you nailed it. There is one part of this whole process that rings a false note to me, over and over, which is the fact that the DA keeps playing to the crowd, but it's all bravado. Lots of talk about how strong the case is, how they might even seek the DP, how they have tons of evidence, lots and lots of talk.

Here he announces what they are considering, and there is no legal or procedural reason for him to have done so. In my experience, if you're holding 4 aces (either playing poker, or in court), you don't brag about what you might do with your hand. You just go through the process and play it out.

Repeatedly, his actions tell me he's trying to play to an audience, which raises lots of questions in my mind. My take is that he's either trying to gain points with the community for the next election, or create a reaction with the defendants.

I'm going to try this again- I respectfully disagree with your statement "the fact that the DA is playing to the crowd, but it's all bravado". IMO it is more likely that the DA is not "playing to the crowd and full of bravado" but, in fact, has voluminous evidence that the public is not yet privy to. In my opinion this would be more in line with typical DA behavior. While not impossible, it seems much less likely that a DA would risk his career to pump up a case that isn't there. Seems to me, in my opinion only, that the risk associated with publicly saying a weak case is strong hoping this leads to confessions and additional witnesses coming forward and then losing said case is much greater than simply keeping your mouth shut, let the weak case run it's course and then simply blame the prior DA. If the case isn't strong, why say it is? If it's bravado, to what end? Does the potential reward for the bravado really justify the potential fallout?

Not attacking you SteveS or anyone else that disagrees. Simply disagreeing with the conclusions others are coming to with the same slim set of facts I'm looking at.
 
I'm going to try this again- I respectfully disagree with your statement "the fact that the DA is playing to the crowd, but it's all bravado". IMO it is more likely that the DA is not "playing to the crowd and full of bravado" but, in fact, has voluminous evidence that the public is not yet privy, too. In my opinion this would be more in line with typical DA behavior. While not impossible, it seems much less likely that a DA would risk his career to pump up a case that isn't there. Seems to me, in my opinion only, that the risk associated with publicly saying a weak case is strong hoping this leads to confessions and additional witnesses coming forward and then losing said case is much greater than simply keeping your mouth shut, let the weak case run it's course and then simply blame the prior DA. If the case isn't strong, why say it is? If it's bravado, to what end? Does the potential reward for the bravado really justify the potential fallout?

Not attacking you SteveS or anyone else that disagrees. Simply disagreeing with the conclusions others are coming to with the same slim set of facts I'm looking at.

:seeya: Slab
I enjoy the back and fourth here.... I think the DA might be trying to get the guilty to agree to a deal of some kind, like accept life without parole instead of facing the death penalty...
He (DA) appears to be sensitive to wishes of the family, and some of what he's been saying might be done to reassure them he cares and is going forward...
I cannot imagine how they feel, and we've seen cases where families prefers a deal such rather than go thru a trial, and subsequent (likely) appeals.

I see in the Megan Sharpton case, Donnie Jones has accepted LWOP..... so sad the toll it took upon her mom, Kelly... rip.
http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/2013/nov/13/grieving-mom-finds-the-pain-too-much/
 
From WKRN:

Lawsuit aims to restore immunity for man in Holly Bobo case

The man once protected by the TBI in exchange for information in the disappearance of Holly Bobo is planning to be in court next month to fight to keep his immunity.

Shayne Austin was initially given the immunity sometime in April but it was revoked after the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation said he was not truthful.



More at Link: http://www.wkrn.com/story/27319157/lawsuit-aims-to-restore-immunity-for-man-in-holly-bobo-case
 
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