Found Deceased WA - Cheryl DeBoer, 54, Mountlake Terrace, 8 February 2016 #5

[ANZAC]

Hi, ANZAC.


This reads as an opinion stated as fact. Do you by chance have a link which states LE's conclusions?

I'm not presenting it as a "conclusion" though which would be a final determination, and I never used that word, you did. I said: it has "become clear to LE".

When a suspicious death investigation begins, they must be open to homicide, suicide and accidental. They appear to have narrowed it down (i.e. it has become clear to LE) that there is no (zero!) evidence to support homicidal violence, and I assume they've also ruled out accidental.

Under Washington RCW's, LE don't decide the manner of death, they need to present the evidence to the ME who will make a determination. This is why they have not yet made a definitive statement, because they don't make the decision/ruling.

http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle...ed-of-drowning-had-plastic-bag-over-her-head/

“At this point in the investigation, there is nothing to suggest DeBoer’s death was the result of an act of homicidal violence,” Police Chief Greg Wilson said in the statement."

https://www.facebook.com/DavidRoseQ1...75428069147003

"My colleague, Brandi Kruse, talked with Mountlake Terrace Police Chief Greg Wilson this morning to get some clarification on the lack of evidence to suggest a homicide in Cheryl DeBoer's case. He says there were no defensive wounds. Her car was locked and secured. Her clothes were intact and not disheveled. No tips have come in that offer any insight into her death that would suggest it was a homicide. No physical evidence or lack of evidence that would support “robbery, assault, or abduction.” There is no evidence she was restrained. “You have to put emotions aside. That’s difficult for the community. It’s difficult for the family," said Chief Wilson who added “As with any case like this, we’re going to take a methodical approach in our investigation." Several crime labs are assisting in analyzing evidence including the plastic bag, her car, computer and phone records. The Chief says it would be premature to rule on manner of death before those labs are done analyzing that evidence."

 

[margarita25]

(I apologize for jumping in late with my recent posts, and I hope to catch up on all the threads and posts here. I've been lurking intermittently since the beginning...I know it can be irritating when someone just starts jumping in and asking the same old questions. I guess Stryker's presence here has made an impact on me...the last time I was in a thread with a family member was really hard, makes it harder, honestly imo. I'm making a note here to try to stay emotionally detached iykwim.)

Can somebody pretty pretty please bump steelman's map again (I think it was steelman and another poster that made one. Thanks very much.

Eta: I'll check the beginning of the the thread, forgot about that.
Eta: Not seeing one...

 

[Eclipsed]

The police said they were investigating this as a homicide (but remained open to other options) right from the discovery of the body and initial autopsy, correct?

So what has changed? They knew about the bag, they knew about the lack of defensive wounds, all of the things stated. Why didn't they push it as suicide or accident from the start instead of implying they had evidence that was "helpful" and implying they believed it was homicide?

From the Medical Examiner on the Snohomish County Website, "Manner of Death
Manner of Death is the way to categorize death as required by the Washington State Department of Health. The classifications are Natural, Accident, Suicide, Homicide, Undetermined, and Pending. Only medical examiners and coroners may certify non- natural deaths."

 

[ANZAC]

Here are a list of questions I'd suggest the family ask the detectives:

1) has the wallet or phone been found?
2) how did the ME determine the cuts were self inflicted?
3) was any item found that would account for the cuts?

Under WA law, the autopsy is confidential. However immediate family can request a copy through the ME's office. I'd suggest they do that to find out if there was water in the lungs, and if it was determined to be there anti or post mortem. RCW 68.50.105: Autopsies, postmortems—Reports and ...

 

[darring21]

I'm not presenting it as a "conclusion" though which would be a final determination, and I never used that word, you did. I said: it has "become clear to LE".

When a suspicious death investigation begins, they must be open to homicide, suicide and accidental. They appear to have narrowed it down (i.e. it has become clear to LE) that there is no (zero!) evidence to support homicidal violence, and I assume they've also ruled out accidental.

Under Washington RCW's, LE don't decide the manner of death, they need to present the evidence to the ME who will make a determination. This is why they have not yet made a definitive statement, because they don't make the decision/ruling.

http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle...ed-of-drowning-had-plastic-bag-over-her-head/

“At this point in the investigation, there is nothing to suggest DeBoer’s death was the result of an act of homicidal violence,” Police Chief Greg Wilson said in the statement."

https://www.facebook.com/DavidRoseQ1...75428069147003

"My colleague, Brandi Kruse, talked with Mountlake Terrace Police Chief Greg Wilson this morning to get some clarification on the lack of evidence to suggest a homicide in Cheryl DeBoer's case. He says there were no defensive wounds. Her car was locked and secured. Her clothes were intact and not disheveled. No tips have come in that offer any insight into her death that would suggest it was a homicide. No physical evidence or lack of evidence that would support “robbery, assault, or abduction.” There is no evidence she was restrained. “You have to put emotions aside. That’s difficult for the community. It’s difficult for the family," said Chief Wilson who added “As with any case like this, we’re going to take a methodical approach in our investigation." Several crime labs are assisting in analyzing evidence including the plastic bag, her car, computer and phone records. The Chief says it would be premature to rule on manner of death before those labs are done analyzing that evidence."

With the evidence presented so far, couldn't someone else phrase it as there is no evidence to support suicide? We don't have her phone, there is no video of her walking, no one saw her by the culvert, she had no history of mental illness, and there were no drugs or alcohol in her system. Perhaps they do have some evidence but they haven't said anything about it.

Cheryl is dead from asphyxiation which could be from suicide or murder.

So, I'm back to a lack of evidence is proof of nothing.

 

[ANZAC]

From the Medical Examiner on the Snohomish County Website, "Manner of Death
Manner of Death is the way to categorize death as required by the Washington State Department of Health. The classifications are Natural, Accident, Suicide, Homicide, Undetermined, and Pending. Only medical examiners and coroners may certify non- natural deaths."

"Investigating it as a homicide" doesn't mean they think it is a homicide. It means they are going to be careful about collecting evidence, for example, getting a warrant for the house rather than relying on the spouse's permission, etc. And it means they are keeping an open mind and will investigate leads that head in that direction. This is 100% SOP for any suspicious death.

 

[ANZAC]

With the evidence presented so far, couldn't someone else phrase it as there is no evidence to support suicide? We don't have her phone, there is no video of her walking, no one saw her by the culvert, she had no history of mental illness, and there were no drugs or alcohol in her system. Perhaps they do have some evidence but they haven't said anything about it.

Cheryl is dead from asphyxiation which could be from suicide or murder.

So, I'm back to a lack of evidence is proof of nothing.

There is never 100% certainty in these cases. Unless some of the additional evidence they have developed reveals the involvement of another person in her death, by definition it is suicide. I don't think anyone would contend it was accidental, given the circumstances.

 

[margarita25]

Has anyone else around there or otherwise died the same way? I know you guys had mentioned some other instances (of mps / attempted abductions, etc)in the area. Is there a working list of that? Tia.

 

[TweebieDirt]

All along I have thought that there were not sidewalks around the culvert intersection. But I was relying on memory and I was wrong. If Cheryl had walked from her car via 236th eastbound, then south on Cedar Way, she would have had sidewalk the whole way

True, but if she had walked the 236th and Cedar/44th route, there are surveillance cameras along that way. I would like to know if this has been explored.

 

[perfectingpink]

(I apologize for jumping in late with my recent posts, and I hope to catch up on all the threads and posts here. I've been lurking intermittently since the beginning...I know it can be irritating when someone just starts jumping in and asking the same old questions. I guess Stryker's presence here has made an impact on me...the last time I was in a thread with a family member I almost died of grief, it makes it harder, honestly imo. I'm making a note here to try to stay emotionally detached iykwim.)

Can somebody pretty pretty please bump steelman's map again (I think it was steelman and another poster that made one. Thanks very much.

Eta: I'll check the beginning of the the thread, forgot about that.
Eta: Not seeing one...

I was so excited when I was able to find it in my history!

https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=zAAmDUXJe_aE.knlZzA2tpxDE

 

[darring21]

There is never 100% certainty in these cases. Unless some of the additional evidence they have developed reveals the involvement of another person in her death, by definition it is suicide. I don't think anyone would contend it was accidental, given the circumstances.

I find that hard to believe. So, if someone comes in and kills me by shooting me in the stomach, wipes the gun down and leaves it. Nobody sees him and there is no evidence of another person's involvement, my death would be ruled a suicide?

I'm not asking for 100% certainty. I'm asking for any evidence supporting suicide and lack of evidence supporting homicide is not evidence that supports suicide.

 

[margarita25]

I was so excited when I was able to find it in my history!

https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=zAAmDUXJe_aE.knlZzA2tpxDE

Thank you so much, PP. You Rock!

Screenshot from Steelman's map so we can view it in the thread and reference it, thanks again Steelman!

 

[AzPistonsGirl]

With the evidence presented so far, couldn't someone else phrase it as there is no evidence to support suicide? We don't have her phone, there is no video of her walking, no one saw her by the culvert, she had no history of mental illness, and there were no drugs or alcohol in her system.

SBM and BBM: Toxicology reports are not back yet, correct?

ETA: Please understand I am not suggesting ANYTHING here, just want to make sure we don't misreport anything here and folks run with it as fact.

 

[MaryLamb]

If the blood is found to be deer or elk, mixed with Cheryl's blood, it could have come from a thawed steak or roast from their own freezer, since she and her husband hunted. Which suggests someone put it there, since it's unlikely an injured deer or elk was in the car. But who? This is so weird. I feel so badly for Cheryl, whatever happened.

 

[AzPistonsGirl]

I find that hard to believe. So, if someone comes in and kills me by shooting me in the stomach, wipes the gun down and leaves it. Nobody sees him and there is no evidence of another person's involvement, my death would be ruled a suicide?

I'm not asking for 100% certainty. I'm asking for any evidence supporting suicide and lack of evidence supporting homicide is not evidence that supports suicide.

AFAIK There would be an an evaluation of the TOTALITY of the evidence, not a finding of suicide based just on the weapon in your scenario here. They'd have to look at a lot of other things going on in your life, etc. They would not just rule it automatically as a suicide based on a weapon being by your side IMO.

 

[Yvettea]

Her cause of death could be accomplished by a murderer and Cheryl placed there later. (I won't elaborate because I don't want to give anyone ideas.) It could be done without defensive wounds. But if there was a perpetrator it seems they've left no evidence and that is what LE must have to rule this a homocide. If there is evidence that Cheryl walked to the culvert I hope we will hear.

 

[ANZAC]

I find that hard to believe. So, if someone comes in and kills me by shooting me in the stomach, wipes the gun down and leaves it. Nobody sees him and there is no evidence of another person's involvement, my death would be ruled a suicide?

It depends on where the gun was found, and what other evidence was accumulated. If there isn't enough evidence to support suicide, the ME will rule it undetermined.

My observation is that the text message, the self inflicted wounds, the walk away from the car, the bag/culvert fit a pattern that matches a lot of suicides. Are they enough by themselves, and with no evidence of another person being in contact with her, to make a determination? That's really up the ME. I've seen suicide rulings with about as little "direct" evidence of suicide, no homicide evidence, and the only "suicidal motivation" that they were "upset". At some point the ME just has to make a call; many get left as undetermined.

 

[Treelights]

Was there any animal blood and or Cheryl's blood found on the outside of the car? Like the door handle or bumper?

 

[Stripehaven]

Her cause of death could be accomplished by a murderer and Cheryl placed there later. (I won't elaborate because I don't want to give anyone ideas.) It could be done without defensive wounds. But if there was a perpetrator it seems they've left no evidence and that is what LE must have to rule this a homocide. If there is evidence that Cheryl walked to the culvert I hope we will hear.

But what about the water in her lungs? I am going to assume here that LE did the standard testing of the water to be sure it was consistent with the water in the culvert.

 

[Mollyandme]

I find that hard to believe. So, if someone comes in and kills me by shooting me in the stomach, wipes the gun down and leaves it. Nobody sees him and there is no evidence of another person's involvement, my death would be ruled a suicide?

I'm not asking for 100% certainty. I'm asking for any evidence supporting suicide and lack of evidence supporting homicide is not evidence that supports suicide.

In your example, your hands would be tested for gun powder residue and if they found none that would be highly suspicious. If the gun was wiped down and your fingerprints weren't on it that would also point away from suicide.

My husband is in LE and told me that all suicides he has responded to are initially supposed to be conducted as a homicide investigation beginning with the death scene or crime scene. If it's not treated that way, there is valuable evidence that could be overlooked and then gone if further investigation, or evidence point to homicide. He said that once all other manners of death can be ruled out the medical examiner can then evaluate all of the facts, evidence, etc and can then make a determination of suicide if they feel it is accurate for that specific case. They could also leave it as undetermined. This is just what my husband told me so I'm not sure if it was helpful!