IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #59

[Bird of Paradise]

snipped by me for space

BBM--one thing I don't recall us wondering about is when the family member arrived and started looking for the girls, who did THEY encounter on the bridge? Anyone in sight? Hasn't been mentioned by LE to my knowledge.

I've been thinking that one of a few things happened, or maybe a combination of 2 or more of them. In no particular order, and not connected to each other for the most part.
<snip>

7. He parked somewhere else, and after the murders he made his way back toward his car and then followed the trail to the bridge pretending to have just arrived.

MOO

 

[DeDee]

March 15th
“If we’re looking for third party data, if we’re looking for information from a company, or a business, that the business acquires in the course of its business, that might relate to an investigation, we send a subpoena,” said Ives. “If you’re looking for evidence that relates directly to proof of a crime and it’s in a realm of privacy, in a person’s home, in a person’s phone, in a person’s computer, on their person, some other situations, then you have to get a search warrant for that type of information, and we’ve gotten some search warrants but often those search warrants didn’t directly relate to the investigation of the killing of the two girls. They’re related to other matters in the course of this investigation. When so many people are being checked on, other things get found.

That was true in the arrest of a local man known to investigators last weekend who is being held without bond on a probation violation for an alcohol-related offense."
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/03/15/indiana-teens-killer-may-have-met-police-prosecutors-say.html

BBM

This quote, I finally found it again. I remember reading it, and reading it again.

Anyone else want to take a guess as to what it being said?

Maybe what is meant is that Search Warrants are obtained and the results don't always directly relate to the killings of the two girls?

Otherwise my second thought is that some of the Search Warrants relate indirectly (but not directly) to whoever the Search Warrant is issued to.

and we’ve gotten some search warrants but often those search warrants didn’t directly relate to the investigation of the killing of the two girls. They’re related to other matters in the course of this investigation

I can hope that the SWs not directly related to the Delphi deaths pertained to the unsolved arson investigation in Flora of the four children. That could perhaps indicate someone with White Supremacy ideology.

 

[Evania]

IMO, from all we've been given, i think the killer was close during the search. Does this mean he was posing as a concerned community member and/or professional? I'm not sure, but maybe???

It's been known to happen. If he's a local, it's entirely possible.


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[Evania]

Always have in mind (at least I): BG "participated" and therefore maybe wasn't the only perp. Any suspicious man who is a RSO or who got recently arrested because of DUI/drugs/alcohol/violence/SA/mast. in public/arson/DV etc. etc. AND who DOESN'T look like middle aged white BG could have been his accomplice. LE would know whom of the countless men to exclude but we WSers don't know, unfortunately.

That's a really good point, Germany...They did use the word "participated." I thought that was interesting then, and I think it's interesting now.

IMO, I think this case is very complicated in the sense that even if he was (or wasn't) the only person physically present, there could be more people that knew or had a part in it indirectly. Didn't LE say something to the effect of this having a few twists to it? (sorry, don't remember actual words)


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[Evania]

I've been thinking that one of a few things happened, or maybe a combination of 2 or more of them. In no particular order, and not connected to each other for the most part.
1. He parked on the south end of the cemetery, and stayed within the wooded area to get to the bridge.
2. He parked on the south end of the cemetery, stayed within the edge of the wooded area to get to the trail, and followed the trail to the bridge.
3. He heard when the girls' ride arrived and started calling for them, slipped back through the trees to his car, and drove away.
4. He had already started back to his car (or even reached it) by the time the ride got there, and calmly drove away before the person/people started calling for them
5. He changed his clothes (took off the jacket and maybe the jeans if he had another pair on under them), left on the trail, passing CE until out of sight and then cut through the woods back to the cemetery.
6. After leaving, he went somewhere to wait for news that the girls were missing. Once he's informed of it, he went back to help search for them (and anything he may have accidentally dropped.
7. He parked somewhere else, and after the murders he made his way back toward his car and then followed the trail to the bridge pretending to have just arrived.
8. LG must have turned the ringer off on her phone or he would most likely have grabbed it and broken it when people started trying to call her.
Guess that's enough, I'm getting less clear with each one I write.

MOO

Your # 7 is interesting.

Wasn't it roughly 30 minutes after they were last verified to be alive according to Snapchat that a witness reported seeing a man in black on the bridge? Under his jacket, it looked like BG was wearing a black shirt. All he had to do was get rid of his layers of clothing and change his pants and then do exactly what you suggested.

Within that span of time, the witness said that she walked the length of the bridge and didn't notice anything unusual. I wonder if the murders had been already done by that point...Just my thoughts. Interesting indeed.


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[tuffgongc9]

If LE was 100% certain more than one individual was involved, would they hide that from the public? They already have many details of the crime that they have not released. We don't even know exact causes of death. Somewhere down the line if they are trying to substantiate a true witness or conspirator in the crime I would think they still have many details that could corroborate this.

We are over 3 months after this happened. Telling the public another person was involved that was not BG could generate more tips. Anyone who was not accounted for in that time or was acting strangely could be scrutinized. Maybe people who changed their looks, acted out of character, sold their car, moved, on and on. I'm sure that many people were completely looked over by the public simply because they don't look or sound like the evidence provided.

This is just my thinking, but if LE knew there was more than one person involved and are no closer to solving this crime then I would hope that they would appeal for more help.

 

[LaneGirl]

If LE was 100% certain more than one individual was involved, would they hide that from the public? They already have many details of the crime that they have not released. We don't even know exact causes of death. Somewhere down the line if they are trying to substantiate a true witness or conspirator in the crime I would think they still have many details that could corroborate this.

We are over 3 months after this happened. Telling the public another person was involved that was not BG could generate more tips. Anyone who was not accounted for in that time or was acting strangely could be scrutinized. Maybe people who changed their looks, acted out of character, sold their car, moved, on and on. I'm sure that many people were completely looked over by the public simply because they don't look or sound like the evidence provided.

This is just my thinking, but if LE knew there was more than one person involved and are no closer to solving this crime then I would hope that they would appeal for more help.

I think they like to hold the cards close to their vest. For example they hope someone will slip up and mention something that wasn't released to the public. At least that is my thought.

 

[Jennifer17]

The speed of it baffles me a bit. Not the actual murders, but how quickly he grabbed them, marched them down the creek, murdered them, then got away before their lift arrived. I think that he had to be still making his getaway when the person who was picking them up was calling them.

 

[RIP Meagan + Johnny]

If LE was 100% certain more than one individual was involved, would they hide that from the public? They already have many details of the crime that they have not released. We don't even know exact causes of death. Somewhere down the line if they are trying to substantiate a true witness or conspirator in the crime I would think they still have many details that could corroborate this.

We are over 3 months after this happened. Telling the public another person was involved that was not BG could generate more tips. Anyone who was not accounted for in that time or was acting strangely could be scrutinized. Maybe people who changed their looks, acted out of character, sold their car, moved, on and on. I'm sure that many people were completely looked over by the public simply because they don't look or sound like the evidence provided.

This is just my thinking, but if LE knew there was more than one person involved and are no closer to solving this crime then I would hope that they would appeal for more help.

RBBM

JMO...
IIRC, didn't LE say within the past week or so that they are revisiting leads that had already been looked at because some things didn't add up anymore? This could be at least part of the reason they are reviewing them.
JMO.
fftobed:

 

[Evania]

The speed of it baffles me a bit. Not the actual murders, but how quickly he grabbed them, marched them down the creek, murdered them, then got away before their lift arrived. I think that he had to be still making his getaway when the person who was picking them up was calling them.

It has me baffled too!

I think he had to have crossed paths with someone. 1) It was around their pick up time. 2) People were there around the time of the murders. Sure, it wasn't hugely populated that day, but one person said that she was there and saw a man in black and a "couple". I assume by couple she meant a romantic couple vs. two men hanging out, although it's possible. I remember seeing her post on Anna William's FB, so I'm sure LE took her name and interviewed her. I wonder if they ever were able to track down and question the people she reported seeing and whether they themselves bumped into anyone. Who knows?

Here's my question: How could BG be absolutely sure, that no one was going to witness his attack on the girls all the way from Point A (the bridge) to Point B (the crime scene). This is partly why I think it was over and done with within 15-30 min tops. Yes, it seems like an incredible timetable, but I also believe he acted with incredible ferociousness within that 30 min timespan and he was either already gone or in the process of leaving by the time their ride got there. IMO


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[LaneGirl]

It has me baffled too!

I think he had to have crossed paths with someone. 1) It was around their pick up time. 2) People were there around the time of the murders. Sure, it wasn't hugely populated that day, but one person said that she was there and saw a man in black and a "couple". I assume by couple she meant a romantic couple vs. two men hanging out, although it's possible. I remember seeing her post on Anna William's FB, so I'm sure LE took her name and interviewed her. I wonder if they ever were able to track down and question the people she reported seeing and whether they themselves bumped into anyone. Who knows?

Here's my question: How could BG be absolutely sure, that no one was going to witness his attack on the girls all the way from Point A (the bridge) to Point B (the crime scene). This is partly why I think it was over and done with within 15-30 min tops. Yes, it seems like an incredible timetable, but I also believe he acted with incredible ferociousness within that 30 min timespan and he was either already gone or in the process of leaving by the time their ride got there. IMO


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I think he saw no one and that is why he felt comfortable. And once he took them down the hill perhaps he felt even more comfortable. idk

 

[Shiressleuth]

That is true. For that same reason generally searchers search in teams, so they witness each other's activities. It's entirely possible one person might have volunteered to go door to door advising landowners to seek permission from property owners along the road, while the search team (fire dept) was moving along the river bank. We don't know if the person who knocked on his door at 6:30pm was also involved in the actual search. When RL gave the information about being asked, it's important to remember that his answer was in response to a question asked of him about how he learned of the disappearance of the girls. It wasn't a discussion of what sort of search took place on his property, where, who or what so all we can do is speculate.

It was one searcher who found the girls IIRC so they can't have been in pairs or teams then imo.

 

[Shiressleuth]

i am confident about them getting them back but i am not so confident in LE sharing the results with us. i was actually very surprised that they even shared they had "some" results back but were waiting on more from the FBI's Virginia lab. they look at the benefit and risk of everything they release in a tight lipped case like this. i can't see the benefit of telling us the results before an arrest is made. i personally don't know what they could gain. however, i am right there with you. i wish we would hear something, even if it just that the fact that the forensic testing was completed.

March 15th
“If we’re looking for third party data, if we’re looking for information from a company, or a business, that the business acquires in the course of its business, that might relate to an investigation, we send a subpoena,” said Ives. “If you’re looking for evidence that relates directly to proof of a crime and it’s in a realm of privacy, in a person’s home, in a person’s phone, in a person’s computer, on their person, some other situations, then you have to get a search warrant for that type of information, and we’ve gotten some search warrants but often those search warrants didn’t directly relate to the investigation of the killing of the two girls. They’re related to other matters in the course of this investigation. When so many people are being checked on, other things get found.

That was true in the arrest of a local man known to investigators last weekend who is being held without bond on a probation violation for an alcohol-related offense."
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/03/15/indiana-teens-killer-may-have-met-police-prosecutors-say.html

BBM

This quote, I finally found it again. I remember reading it, and reading it again.

Anyone else want to take a guess as to what it being said?

Maybe what is meant is that Search Warrants are obtained and the results don't always directly relate to the killings of the two girls?

Otherwise my second thought is that some of the Search Warrants relate indirectly (but not directly) to whoever the Search Warrant is issued to.

Some search warrants may lead to subpoenas and vice versa. Some may not be related to investigation but to alibi verification. E.g. subpoena for employee work presence on day of murder could show absence and then lead to search warrant for computer records etc and then could find drugs or whatever.

 

[Shiressleuth]

I can hope that the SWs not directly related to the Delphi deaths pertained to the unsolved arson investigation in Flora of the four children. That could perhaps indicate someone with White Supremacy ideology.

But that was three months earlier unless they're connected.

 

[passepartout]

My simplest explanation -- and this is based on visiting the bridge and surrounding area:

BG is on the bridge in the background of a video on Libby's phone. They think nothing of his presence because the bridge is close to home/a place people go to hike/there are two of them.

When BG reaches them on the south end of the bridge, he says something along the lines of 'You girls can't be up here right now.'

The girls turn to go back to the north side of the bridge.

He blocks their way and says '[No.] Down the hill.' and directs them to the narrow track that leads down the hill to the access road/driveway. (This is the easiest and clearest place to go 'down the hill'. It cannot be done from the other/north side.)

BG would have been posing -- or merely implying -- that he was an authority figure, maybe connected with the bridge or the railroad or one of the properties down below. He doesn't look like a walker or hiker, but he does look like a laborer of some kind.

Not sure when the violence began or whether he had a gun or weapon. I'm just proposing the simplest strategy for catching the girls off guard and getting them to follow his commands.

 

[MistyWaters]

It was one searcher who found the girls IIRC so they can't have been in pairs or teams then imo.

In several media reports, it's mentioned "volunteers" found the bodies. That it was a lone searcher I think originally sprung from the rumour that it was the same person who asked permission to search the previous evening. It's an example how if something is repeated enough times, it (mistakingly) becomes fact. MOO

"The bodies were discovered by search volunteers Tuesday along a railroad bridge near Dear Creek in Delphi, about 70 miles northwest of Indianapolis, the Carroll County Sheriff's Office said in a statement."
http://www.cnn.com/2017/02/16/us/indiana-missing-girls-bodies-identified/

 

[MistyWaters]

RBBM

JMO...
IIRC, didn't LE say within the past week or so that they are revisiting leads that had already been looked at because some things didn't add up anymore? This could be at least part of the reason they are reviewing them.
JMO.
fftobed:

Nothing specifically mentioned about things not adding up, although that might be implied.

"Asked for an update on the investigation, Leazenby said more analysis of some of the evidence has come in, and detectives are revisiting some of the 18,000 leads they received in the weeks after the killings. Additionally, the detectives now have fewer than 1,000 leads left to sift through, he said."
http://www.indystar.com/story/news/local/2017/05/07/hundreds-reclaim-delphis-trail-peace/101297052/

 

[mtnlites]

All of this time I have been thinking that it might have been someone that knew school was going to be out and that's why he was there. However, the girls were on the bridge at 2pm and later. Here, school lets out at 2:30. He might not have even known that they didn't have school that day. He could have gotten there around 2 and figured he'd just hang around for a few hours, hoping that some school kids would come by when they let out. (Just a thought. My own theory is that this is random and the girls weren't targeted at all.)

 

[margarita25]

All of this time I have been thinking that it might have been someone that knew school was going to be out and that's why he was there. However, the girls were on the bridge at 2pm and later. Here, school lets out at 2:30. He might not have even known that they didn't have school that day. He could have gotten there around 2 and figured he'd just hang around for a few hours, hoping that some school kids would come by when they let out. (Just a thought. My own theory is that this is random and the girls weren't targeted at all.)

Wow! Great thought, mtnlites! This never crossed my mind!

Duh!

 

[Deleted member 102539]

If they knew him, others would know him...either their friends or family. And that does not seem to be the case.

What if AW and LG thought they perhaps might know BG and it would be "a big thing" to see him there, wearing unusual clothing and walking in an unusual area alone but the girls also thought nobody would believe them if they would tell it later. - The "big thing" turned out to be their fate but they didn't know at the time. - All my fantasy.