Great thread. Can someone tell me if infact any blood was found in her ears when the autopsy was preformed?
If her skull was split to the bridge of her nose there most probably would have been some bleeding through her nose. Reading Amess medical link it seems to me very possible. After reading UKs quote from the autopsy report about the mucous I went to the smoking gun website and read the whole autopsy report they have there and found that particular section.
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/jonbenet5.html Coroner Meyer said that it does not appear to be hemorrhagic. (I think that means blood from some kind of hemorrhage?) He doesnt say for definite at that point probably because he hasnt tested the substance yet and he is making an assumption based on what he is examining. Perhaps it is all in the wording, or lack of?
If you then take a look at the last page of the autopsy report http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/jonbenet9.html it says that the swabs from her right cheek were taken for evidence. I wonder what the results of the actual testing were on that substance. It is interesting to note too that the autopsy doesnt state swabs taken directly from the substance located above her top lip, just her right cheek. Why wasnt JB swabbed under her nose as well? How was he certain that it was all the same substance? In suspicious murder investigations it would make sense to me to swab everywhere on the face in case there were different fibers, fluids etc there. I suppose looking at it another way, you have to entertain the idea that the autopsy report most probably does have certain parts omitted.
Just another thought, does anyone know if there was any brown tan stuff found on her white blanket as well? I have just only recently gotten my books back that I lent to a friend and I cant remember off the top of my head. I saw in the autopsy report that there was some found on the sleeve of her shirt. I wonder what else that stuff may be on besides perhaps her pillow case. I would think for sure there would be some found on the tape that was used to cover her mouth. I dont know how to cut and paste from that page so I will type the relevant parts.
It is on page 2. http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/jonbenet2.html
There are no defects noted in the shirt but the upper anterior right sleeve contains a dried brown-tan stain measuring 2.5 x 1.5 inches, consistent with mucous from the nose or mouth.
There is that brown tan stuff again.
Interesting that he says that the external ear canals were free of blood but he doesnt mention if he found any other substance in there or in the inner ear. Wonder why if he could say free of blood about her ear canals why then he couldnt say that about her face? Unless he was uncertain or was waiting to do tests to be certain. Hang on a tic, maybe he did know, didnt they use a special light in the autopsy to detect blood and that? I think I remember something about detective Arndt (sp) being there for it or something. (Sorry dont have a link or anything for this right now) Is that how he knew about the ears but he just didnt or couldnt say that in the report about her face? Seems he is only specific on certain things in the autopsy report. It certainly makes me think that there were things left out of it for a reason.
Sorry if this post is a bit scattered, I keep leaving the computer going away thinking about it, and then adding new thoughts.
I just went on a hunt with google and found the link for the info on the autopsy with Det Arndt present. Dont know if anyone wants to read this but it says that they used a black florescent light. http://www.acandyrose.com/01301997warrant.htm
I don't know if JB's head wound happened, and THEN she was placed in the bed....or if she was IN the bed WHEN it happened. But, yes, I believe as you do...that it was the scene of the crime...and then she was moved to the basement. I don't believe that the whole thing took place in the basement. During one of Patsy's interview, the interviewer asked her something about the curtains in JB's room, I believe they were above her bed...anyway, Patsy said.."I don't see any blood on them, do you?" What? NOBODY mentioned the word blood to her. And then in the same interview she was asked if JB ever had nosebleeds at night...and was also asked about a stain on JB's pillow case. Yep...sounds like the scene of the crime to me, too.
According to the autopsy report, none was found in the external canals...but, thats just the area that the Medical Examiner could SEE. We don't know about the internal portion of the ears.
from the autopsy report:No scalp trauma is identified. The external auditory canals are patent and free of blood. The eyes are green and the pupils equally dilated. The sclerae are white. The nostrils are both patent and contain a small amount of tan mucous material.
I don't think she was,after thinking about it,b/c the injuries are on the right side of the body..and the way her bed was,she would be laying with her left side facing outwards,unless she had her head at the opposite end.other than that,she would have to have been in the other bed,or sitting or standing,is best my guess.what if she was sitting on the floor and someone grabbed her collar,twisting it and pulling her up at the same time? that may have left some of the marks on her neck?
edited to add: unless she was on her stomach on the bed.
Ames,
Thanks so much for the reply and your info. I so enjoy reading your post.:blowkiss:
That is entirely possible. I just don't see, how with an injury that severe...that she didn't bleed from her ears or nose, or both. In the one link that I provided, it does say that the fluid that comes from the ears, nose or mouth, after a severe head injury...does NOT have to be blood...just fluid. It could be clear..in other words. I wonder if this is what was found on JB cheek. I am sure that if she did bleed from either or both of those places...and I am quite sure she did....that Patsy would have cleaned her up....(except she forgot to remove the blood stained pillow case, in her panic). It is possible too, that she bled from either her ears or nose...and fluid drained from one, too.
So after discounting bleeding he speculates the source to be the nose or mouth.There are no defects noted in the shirt but the upper
anterior right sleeve contains a dried brown-tan stain measuring
2.5x1.5 inches, consistent with mucous from the nose or mouth.
I am still stuck on the Patsy threw her into the tub or sink scenario...after a bed soiling incident. So, what you are saying makes sense...if that was the case. THEN she could have been PLACED in the bed, afterward. I am sure that she was unconscious...Patsy could have placed her there, while she figured out what to do next....
AGAIN, I believe that it was a rage attack and not intentional.
I am still stuck on the Patsy threw her into the tub or sink scenario...after a bed soiling incident. So, what you are saying makes sense...if that was the case. THEN she could have been PLACED in the bed, afterward. I am sure that she was unconscious...Patsy could have placed her there, while she figured out what to do next....to make her more comfortable. AGAIN, I believe that it was a rage attack and not intentional.
I agree JB was on her bed at one time. There are cord fibers on her sheets...could Patsy have cut the cord in JB's bedroom.
Ames,
Its possible she did not bleed because she was dead?
Its possible that the blood on the pillow is not connected to her death?
Coroner Meyer states in his autopsy report that he discovered blood in one location and only one, and that was JonBenet's genitals.
He also states:
So after discounting bleeding he speculates the source to be the nose or mouth.
.
either that, or I wonder if there was a first staging there? then the basement was later decided upon? UK,is there any evidence to support that most likely that did occur?
I think the scream heard was PR screaming in the basement when she first saw JB staged and strangled with the rope around her neck..it must have been a shock.I think it stopped suddenly b/c JR placed his hand over her mouth,out of fear she would be heard...which she was.She indicated in the interview there was screaming going on,and I think hers started in the basement(if not b/f),since BR didn't hear anything.
I DON'T THINK PR DID THE BASEMENT STAGING.I think JR was the only one who knew how to tie that knot(from sailing),and do a garrote ..he read crime books,so he staged it using that knowledge.I think in regards to abuse,he HAD to stage it as a sex crime to cover for that.ALSO...would PR use her OWN equipment(paintbrush) for the staging? I don't think so..but JR didn't have a problem with it..it wasn't his and it didn't point to him. (think about that long and hard...I think that's the case...)
I think one of the reasons JB was placed in the WC was b/c JR used night vision goggles for some of the staging(since those were asked about in the interview),but,he needed to turn on a light to be sure everything looked right ..but was afraid of being seen with the basement light on by neighbors.SO he moved her there and used the light that was in there to see better,and ultimately decided to leave her there.JMO.
I don't discount either one of them in the initial attack on JB(head wound and manual strangling),since they were both in the house.I do discount BR,for several reasons.
BUT,as far as JB taking her last breath,and thus, who the final murderer was...I THINK IT WAS JR.I think they both covered this crime up and BOTH should have been sent to prison,if not more.IF PR was the one who did the initial attack,then JR should have tried to get JB medical help.Since he didn't then that alone is murder to me.I don't know in a legal sense what it is,since she would have died from the head wound anyway,but I think he did the final staging and strangling,which caused her to take her last breath,and he should have been charged with murder.
I think that's why he shook his head yes when asked by Tracey if he killed JB.He knew he did.
SO,in my quotes...I don't know for sure in what respect MF and CS are saying it was an intentional murder,but I think that's the reason.
I agree JB was on her bed at one time. There are cord fibers on her sheets...could Patsy have cut the cord in JB's bedroom.
either that, or I wonder if there was a first staging there? then the basement was later decided upon? UK,is there any evidence to support that most likely that did occur?
I think the scream heard was PR screaming in the basement when she first saw JB staged and strangled with the rope around her neck..it must have been a shock.I think it stopped suddenly b/c JR placed his hand over her mouth,out of fear she would be heard...which she was.She indicated in the interview there was screaming going on,and I think hers started in the basement(if not b/f),since BR didn't hear anything.
I DON'T THINK PR DID THE BASEMENT STAGING.I think JR was the only one who knew how to tie that knot(from sailing),and do a garrote ..he read crime books,so he staged it using that knowledge.I think in regards to abuse,he HAD to stage it as a sex crime to cover for that.ALSO...would PR use her OWN equipment(paintbrush) for the staging? I don't think so..but JR didn't have a problem with it..it wasn't his and it didn't point to him. (think about that long and hard...I think that's the case...)
I think one of the reasons JB was placed in the WC was b/c JR used night vision goggles for some of the staging(since those were asked about in the interview),but,he needed to turn on a light to be sure everything looked right ..but was afraid of being seen with the basement light on by neighbors.SO he moved her there and used the light that was in there to see better,and ultimately decided to leave her there.JMO.
The forensic evidence found at thre crime scene strongly implicates Patsy Ramsey in the basement staging: fibers from her jacket were found in the wrappings of the garrote, in the paint tote and on the duct tape. Both the knots and the garrote were clumsily done, and John Ramsey himself said in DOI that if he had staged the scene, he would have done a far better job. Imo this was one the few times where he told the truth ......I DON'T THINK PR DID THE BASEMENT STAGING.