ME - Lewiston, Mass Shooting, Multiple Scenes, 18 killed *shooter found dead* Oct 2023 #2

[Charlot123]

A bit more on SFC Robert Card: Army spox says that after his medical evaluation in July — done after unit leadership observed him ‘behaving erratically’ — the Army directed he “should not have a weapon, handle ammunition, and not participate in live fire activity.”

"The Army also declared the service member non-deployable due to concerns over his well-being," the spox LTC Castro said. "His company commander was notified of the restrictions. The USARC Surgeon Office and USARC medical management made multiple attempts to contact Card."

(Re: the bit about making him non-deployable, worth noting again that he did not have any combat deployments on his record.)

https://x.com/halbritz/status/1719107915422806439?s=20

But here is the question. The Army decides, essentially, that if armed, he is dangerous.

Who then takes away his guns and license? The doctor makes the recommendations. Who should be called to take away his 2nd Amendment? Is it the judge or the police?

Because army decides it on their end. Basically dangerous to serve. What is the channel to delegate the message to the community?

From everyone making "multiple attempts" I can't understand whether there is no such channel or if everyone was afraid of a man who was mentally ill and armed to his teeth.

 

[Ilex]

But here is the question. The Army decides, essentially, that if armed, he is dangerous.

Who then takes away his guns and license? The doctor makes the recommendations. Who should be called to take away his 2nd Amendment? Is it the judge or the police?

Because army decides it on their end. Basically dangerous to serve. What is the channel to delegate the message to the community?

From everyone making "multiple attempts" I can't understand whether there is no such channel or if everyone was afraid of a man who was mentally ill and armed to his teeth.

I'm looking forward to seeing an answer to that question. It doesn't seem that there was a lack of communication, but maybe there was. I believe RC was in NY for training when he made the initial threats. So there are state to state reporting issues it would seem. The family was also reporting him so I'm not sure why it wasn't followed up on. Was there not enough staff? Where were the calls being placed-was it to local LE or State LE? Doesn't sound like any LE actually put eyes on RC, why not? Seems like there's more to the story.

 

[Boxer]

I'm looking forward to seeing an answer to that question. It doesn't seem that there was a lack of communication, but maybe there was. I believe RC was in NY for training when he made the initial threats. So there are state to state reporting issues it would seem. The family was also reporting him so I'm not sure why it wasn't followed up on. Was there not enough staff? Where were the calls being placed-was it to local LE or State LE? Doesn't sound like any LE actually put eyes on RC, why not? Seems like there's more to the story.

True. But also Maine is reluctant to red flag

 

[Ladyotm]

At least someone did the right thing. I stepped away from this thread after he was finally found, but with the new reports I had to come back to see what y'all thought. It sounds like his family was trying to get some help for his issues, but they weren't being heard. So many dropped the ball here, and that needs to be seriously addressed.
JMO

I agree, the one person who did what needed to be done. I am so, so angry and heartbroken at what happened and how it could have been prevented. It really makes you wonder, are there present warnings, about others, that are being ignored? The lack of urgency and follow through warrants an investigation and job loss.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

Where I live, LE doesn't come and take people's weapons away unless they have been charged with a crime. If charges can be laid (we on Websleuths know that's not a quick or easy process), then the guns can go.

And I live in a state (California) where gun laws are strict. But taking away someone's property (of whatever kind) without due process seems to violate the US Constitution.

So that recourse didn't exist for this family, IMO.

Instead, they have to hire a domestic law attorney, a private psychiatrist or two, and go to court for a conservatorship. Most people have no clue how to do this - or that they can do it.

There is nothing LE can with an adult who has yet to commit a crime. And the process by which family members can get control over a person are not at all well known. And it is expensive in many cases.

IMO.

While I agree that the family is blameless in this under law, LE very well can take guns away from those who haven't committed a crime.

Maine's 'yellow flag' law could be a model for gun control, but legal experts say it has limitations

A Maine law has been described as a potential national model for keeping guns out of the hands of dangerous or suicidal individuals. But the state's so-called yellow flag law has only been used two dozen times in two years, and prosecutors say the law has both advantages and limitations.

www.mainepublic.org

And this is true in California as well.

What are ‘red flag’ laws and how can they prevent gun violence?

Psychiatrist Amy Barnhorst explains how red flag laws work and how ordinary people can utilize them if they are concerned someone is at risk of harming themselves and others with a gun.

health.ucdavis.edu

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

But here is the question. The Army decides, essentially, that if armed, he is dangerous.

Who then takes away his guns and license? The doctor makes the recommendations. Who should be called to take away his 2nd Amendment? Is it the judge or the police?

Because army decides it on their end. Basically dangerous to serve. What is the channel to delegate the message to the community?

From everyone making "multiple attempts" I can't understand whether there is no such channel or if everyone was afraid of a man who was mentally ill and armed to his teeth.

To answer your question, it's generally law enforcement.

 

[Charlot123]

I'm looking forward to seeing an answer to that question. It doesn't seem that there was a lack of communication, but maybe there was. I believe RC was in NY for training when he made the initial threats. So there are state to state reporting issues it would seem. The family was also reporting him so I'm not sure why it wasn't followed up on. Was there not enough staff? Where were the calls being placed-was it to local LE or State LE? Doesn't sound like any LE actually put eyes on RC, why not? Seems like there's more to the story.

I actually wonder what the laws are. I know people who were involuntarily committed - then it goes to state records and the states deals with gun permits, at least here. However, if a person is committed voluntary and suicidal, not homicidal, there is no path to deal with the guns. It becomes a recommendation to remove the guns from home, but apparently, a good friend can not just “hold” someone’s gun. So I see one black hole there. Where is a person voluntarily agreeing to remove guns from home supposed to bring them?

(It seems that something was in the records, as the company refused to sell him the silencer. But it applied to new purchases, what about old collection?)

I am far from blaming the local police given not-so-remote events. Taking guns away from an aficionado requires probably a SWAT team, not a local sheriff. Understaffed, perhaps?

Now, I am not so naive not to imagine that if the shooter wanted to, he could not find a loophole to buy or even steal a gun.

However, not sure that either there are no clear-cut instructions, or they might be hard to follow?

Example: if a child complains of abuse, any mandatory reporter reports it with the CPS and leaves there. We have lots of examples of CPS not doing its job, or someone not reporting, but at least there are instructions.

When it comes to guns and laws and people issuing homicidal threats, there should be a “chain of command” to report. But does it exist? Are the laws the same between the states? Was there a path to follow?

 

[Ilex]

True. But also Maine is reluctant to red flag

While I agree that the family is blameless in this under law, LE very well can take guns away from those who haven't committed a crime.

Maine's 'yellow flag' law could be a model for gun control, but legal experts say it has limitations

A Maine law has been described as a potential national model for keeping guns out of the hands of dangerous or suicidal individuals. But the state's so-called yellow flag law has only been used two dozen times in two years, and prosecutors say the law has both advantages and limitations.

www.mainepublic.org

And this is true in California as well.

What are ‘red flag’ laws and how can they prevent gun violence?

Psychiatrist Amy Barnhorst explains how red flag laws work and how ordinary people can utilize them if they are concerned someone is at risk of harming themselves and others with a gun.

health.ucdavis.edu

At the news conference it was stated that Maine's yellow law went into effect in 2019. Since July of 2020 it's actually been utilized over 80 times.

Amid numerous warning signs, why wasn't Maine's 'yellow flag' law used before mass shooting?

Last week's mass shooting in Lewiston is renewing scrutiny of a 3-year-old state law that aims to keep guns away from potentially dangerous people. But it's unclear whether police considered using Maine's so-called "yellow flag" law against the suspected gunman. And critics say Maine's law could...

www.mainepublic.org

The main difference between a yellow and red law is that a yellow law requires a medical professional, in addition to a judge, to sign off on removing and denying access to guns. Other than that, the laws are the same. Ask the I-Team: Is Maine's 'yellow flag' law similar to 'red flag' laws?


As for lax laws, first there are federal laws on guns of which there are a great many. Gun law in the United States - Wikipedia

Then Maine has their own laws regarding guns. Some of which are here on different pages. Title 25, §2001-A: Threatening display of or carrying concealed weapon

However in a case like this there were some hurdles. One was that it doesn't appear that LE ever actually met with RC in person. I'm sure we'll hear more about this, but after making threats and the family expressing concerns, LE never interviewed RC. Why was that? What happened? Secondly even if they had determined he needed help, I'm not sure there would have been services available for him. Maine has a history of "shipping out" their mental health issues to Massachusetts. A lot of the mental health facilities closed down, Maine is left with only two for the entire state. And the bed count has drastically decreased. BMHI used to house and treat over 2000 patients, that same facility is now down to 50 beds. EMMC used to have a mental health ward, that's now gone. Same with Maine Med and most of the hospitals in the area. I believe in Aroostook County there is still a 30 bed holding area in Fort Fairfield, but it's only a temporary solution. The majority of patients are shipped to Boston. That's expensive and insurance companies can balk. Point is, even if his family had brought him into a medical facility, he probably would have been released to his family. Just like LE relied on his family to make sure he didn't have access to weapons.

Good news is gun crime is very low in Maine, despite its "lax laws" status. In 2021, 178 people died by firearms in Maine. 158 of those deaths were suicide, 17 were homicide, and 2 were unintentional. Maine's 'yellow flag' law scrutinized as 'woefully weak' after mass shooting

So what's the crystal ball to predict a crime or how to prevent something like this ever happening again? I'm waiting to hear more about what happened in this circumstance. Maybe we'll find a way this criminal could have been stopped, but how to relates to others may be hard. This one is different in that he did this in a small town where he grew up. It makes sense that he knew these people, he had strong family connections, and seemed to have a good support system and he didn't have radical beliefs.

 

[Ilex]

I actually wonder what the laws are. I know people who were involuntarily committed - then it goes to state records and the states deals with gun permits, at least here. However, if a person is committed voluntary and suicidal, not homicidal, there is no path to deal with the guns. It becomes a recommendation to remove the guns from home, but apparently, a good friend can not just “hold” someone’s gun. So I see one black hole there. Where is a person voluntarily agreeing to remove guns from home supposed to bring them?

(It seems that something was in the records, as the company refused to sell him the silencer. But it applied to new purchases, what about old collection?)

I am far from blaming the local police given not-so-remote events. Taking guns away from an aficionado requires probably a SWAT team, not a local sheriff. Understaffed, perhaps?

Now, I am not so naive not to imagine that if the shooter wanted to, he could not find a loophole to buy or even steal a gun.

However, not sure that either there are no clear-cut instructions, or they might be hard to follow?

Example: if a child complains of abuse, any mandatory reporter reports it with the CPS and leaves there. We have lots of examples of CPS not doing its job, or someone not reporting, but at least there are instructions.

When it comes to guns and laws and people issuing homicidal threats, there should be a “chain of command” to report. But does it exist? Are the laws the same between the states? Was there a path to follow?

I agree. I don't know how the situation was handled. Fact is, anyone can go in and remove weapons. When my Grandfather had a stroke he became very depressed and we removed all weapons from the home for a while out of concern. Legally we were in the wrong, but morally and ethically we did what we felt was best. We also took his car keys.
I'm just shocked that there were complaints from reliable people since May and LE never actually interviewed RC. Was he out of the area for extended periods of time? Were things too busy? Are there staffing issues? What services are available for families when a loved one is having a breakdown?

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

At the news conference it was stated that Maine's yellow law went into effect in 2019. Since July of 2020 it's actually been utilized over 80 times.

Amid numerous warning signs, why wasn't Maine's 'yellow flag' law used before mass shooting?

Last week's mass shooting in Lewiston is renewing scrutiny of a 3-year-old state law that aims to keep guns away from potentially dangerous people. But it's unclear whether police considered using Maine's so-called "yellow flag" law against the suspected gunman. And critics say Maine's law could...

www.mainepublic.org

The main difference between a yellow and red law is that a yellow law requires a medical professional, in addition to a judge, to sign off on removing and denying access to guns. Other than that, the laws are the same. Ask the I-Team: Is Maine's 'yellow flag' law similar to 'red flag' laws?


As for lax laws, first there are federal laws on guns of which there are a great many. Gun law in the United States - Wikipedia

Then Maine has their own laws regarding guns. Some of which are here on different pages. Title 25, §2001-A: Threatening display of or carrying concealed weapon

However in a case like this there were some hurdles. One was that it doesn't appear that LE ever actually met with RC in person. I'm sure we'll hear more about this, but after making threats and the family expressing concerns, LE never interviewed RC. Why was that? What happened? Secondly even if they had determined he needed help, I'm not sure there would have been services available for him. Maine has a history of "shipping out" their mental health issues to Massachusetts. A lot of the mental health facilities closed down, Maine is left with only two for the entire state. And the bed count has drastically decreased. BMHI used to house and treat over 2000 patients, that same facility is now down to 50 beds. EMMC used to have a mental health ward, that's now gone. Same with Maine Med and most of the hospitals in the area. I believe in Aroostook County there is still a 30 bed holding area in Fort Fairfield, but it's only a temporary solution. The majority of patients are shipped to Boston. That's expensive and insurance companies can balk. Point is, even if his family had brought him into a medical facility, he probably would have been released to his family. Just like LE relied on his family to make sure he didn't have access to weapons.

Good news is gun crime is very low in Maine, despite its "lax laws" status. In 2021, 178 people died by firearms in Maine. 158 of those deaths were suicide, 17 were homicide, and 2 were unintentional. Maine's 'yellow flag' law scrutinized as 'woefully weak' after mass shooting

So what's the crystal ball to predict a crime or how to prevent something like this ever happening again? I'm waiting to hear more about what happened in this circumstance. Maybe we'll find a way this criminal could have been stopped, but how to relates to others may be hard. This one is different in that he did this in a small town where he grew up. It makes sense that he knew these people, he had strong family connections, and seemed to have a good support system and he didn't have radical beliefs.

I think you're making a cause-effect analysis that may not be accurate. Yes, there are likely lack of psych beds in Maine, just like the rest of the country. Yes, some states have agreements with other states for overflow. However, as far as I know, no state would let someone who met the criteria for involuntary commitment for dangerousness go home just because of lack of beds. That isn't what typically happens when there aren't enough beds. Either people board in the emergency room until a bed becomes available, receiving care while there, or they're taken to the state hospital until an acute care bed becomes available.

This isn't a matter of mental healthcare gone awry due to lack of beds, IMO. From what I've read, he didn't meet criteria for involuntary commitment, and during the short window when he did (immediately before the shooting), he didn't seek it and LE didn't take him to the ER for evaluation.

 

[Charlot123]

I agree. I don't know how the situation was handled. Fact is, anyone can go in and remove weapons. When my Grandfather had a stroke he became very depressed and we removed all weapons from the home for a while out of concern. Legally we were in the wrong, but morally and ethically we did what we felt was best. We also took his car keys.
I'm just shocked that there were complaints from reliable people since May and LE never actually interviewed RC. Was he out of the area for extended periods of time? Were things too busy? Are there staffing issues? What services are available for families when a loved one is having a breakdown?

I know a story of someone being acutely suicidal after an unusual piece of news. The person took a gun, went outside and called his friend.

The friend talked him out of the suicide and then drove to his house and took away all guns. I was shocked to find out later that what he did, by law was illegal. I am trying to understand how the law works, are there parts of weapons one should collect, or what?

Let us imagine, a person agrees to give away all the guns. It might happen, too, who knows? If a policeman takes the guns, there probably is a lot of paperwork involved. This is counter-productive, because all decisions at this time are impulsive. Are there any guns repositories where guns of people who are currently at least very depressed can be kept? How does it work to practically be efficient?

Can you imagine a person who, advised to give the gun, temporarily, to a friend or a relative, says, I have no one? I can. Where is he supposed to go?

 

[Charlot123]

I agree. I don't know how the situation was handled. Fact is, anyone can go in and remove weapons. When my Grandfather had a stroke he became very depressed and we removed all weapons from the home for a while out of concern. Legally we were in the wrong, but morally and ethically we did what we felt was best. We also took his car keys.
I'm just shocked that there were complaints from reliable people since May and LE never actually interviewed RC. Was he out of the area for extended periods of time? Were things too busy? Are there staffing issues? What services are available for families when a loved one is having a breakdown?

My first question would be, what’s the size of their police department and how many people do they serve, as well as the size of the territory? Are they fully staffed? Computerized? I’d start from there.

 

[MyBelle]

I agree. I don't know how the situation was handled. Fact is, anyone can go in and remove weapons. When my Grandfather had a stroke he became very depressed and we removed all weapons from the home for a while out of concern. Legally we were in the wrong, but morally and ethically we did what we felt was best. We also took his car keys.
I'm just shocked that there were complaints from reliable people since May and LE never actually interviewed RC. Was he out of the area for extended periods of time? Were things too busy? Are there staffing issues? What services are available for families when a loved one is having a breakdown?

BBM. I doubt LE would arrest you for the removal of weapons from a family member who is depressed and possibly suicidal. No judge in this nation would support such a prosecution. To me, it is no different than obtaining emergency orders of protection. In Illinois, another family member can obtain an EOP on behalf of a loved one they believe is a victim of domestic violence. I think the Illinois legislation should become a federal law so that it is available across state lines.

JMO
eta:

Illinois Attorney General - Illinois Domestic Violence Act - Orders of Protection

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

I know a story of someone being acutely suicidal after an unusual piece of news. The person took a gun, went outside and called his friend.

The friend talked him out of the suicide and then drove to his house and took away all guns. I was shocked to find out later that what he did, by law was illegal. I am trying to understand how the law works, are there parts of weapons one should collect, or what?

Let us imagine, a person agrees to give away all the guns. It might happen, too, who knows? If a policeman takes the guns, there probably is a lot of paperwork involved. This is counter-productive, because all decisions at this time are impulsive. Are there any guns repositories where guns of people who are currently at least very depressed can be kept? How does it work to practically be efficient?

Can you imagine a person who, advised to give the gun, temporarily, to a friend or a relative, says, I have no one? I can. Where is he supposed to go?

This decision should never be up to family or relatives, IMO. In some states, it's illegal, as you said. And in other states, what is the family supposed to do with it??? Guns, while legal, are regulated at least somewhat. It would be like confiscating the cocaine of someone who has a drug problem or the prescription for a controlled substance of someone you think might abuse them. Leave it to LE or medical professionals. They'll insure the weapons are taken care of if there's a threat.

And no, depression does not constitute stripping someone of their rights.

 

[waldojabba]

Lewiston gunman met ex at Schemengees, believed businesses were calling him a pedophile, affidavit says

Documents released Tuesday afternoon provide more details about the shooter, Robert Card, and the manhunt that followed last week's shootings.

www.centralmaine.com

“On the night of the shootings, Card’s brother told police that Card had been in a relationship with a person identified only as J.C. and that the two had met at Schemengees during a cornhole tournament. The brother “said that ever since the relationship ended, Robert started wearing hearing aids and had been saying crazy things,” the affidavit said.

The brother told police that Card’s girlfriend had two daughters who Card would take to Schemengees to eat “and that is where the pedophile thing in Robert’s head came from. Robert was there with J.’s two daughters on occasions and felt people were looking at him,” reads an affidavit by Maine State Police officer Blake Conrad.”

good update imo

 

[Charlot123]

This decision should never be up to family or relatives, IMO. In some states, it's illegal, as you said. And in other states, what is the family supposed to do with it??? Guns, while legal, are regulated at least somewhat. It would be like confiscating the cocaine of someone who has a drug problem or the prescription for a controlled substance of someone you think might abuse them. Leave it to LE or medical professionals. They'll insure the weapons are taken care of if there's a threat.

And no, depression does not constitute stripping someone of their rights.

Depression doesn’t, but temporarily removing the source of grave danger from a depressed person is as practical as taking away cocaine or a rope. The problem is, calling 911 is good but usually in a suicidal state, people might be so impulsive, it all can change in 1 minute. See, even such an easy thing is a problem because there are no recommendations or instructions.

I am thinking about the sheriff. Technically he is the law in ME. But if he is understaffed and the family says RC would open the door holding a gun, I can imagine how it feels. So maybe the option of the family taking guns away sounded well to him. It shouldn’t but I understand why it did.

I think the chance was lost when RC was in the hospital, but usually all documents are filled out on discharge.

I would like to know if we could get better recommendations on how this should have been handled from the standpoint of safety and learn something.

(And oh, while we are at it - the police needs to be refunded back. The idea backfires, and badly).

 

[Charlot123]

Wondered the same. For me, I can't imagine not wearing ear protection when cutting the grass, getting on a flight or attending a concert, to name a few. Going to a gun range, I wouldn't go there, but that's just me and all of this is my preference and moo.

I probably worded it badly. I had headphones on, and it was still noisy, and next time I brought my own, and it was still very noisy, and I stopped coming. I am very protective of my ears. Stopped going to a good hairdressing salon because they had live music, etc.

 

[imstilla.grandma]

READ THE AFFIDAVIT HERE

Affidavit: Maine gunman believed businesses were spreading rumors about him

A family member told authorities Card was "delusional since February of 2023 after a bad breakup."

www.wmtw.com

In a text sent in September to Army Reserve training supervisor Kelvin L. Mote, one of Robert Card’s fellow reservists warned the supervisor.Sagadahoc County Sheriff's office

You up i have something to report.

And yes he still has all of his weapons. I'm not there I'm at my own place.

I believe he's going to snap and do a mass shooting

Army reservist sent texts before Maine attack warning gunman would ‘do a mass shooting’ - The Boston Globe

A set of desperate texts and a letter from a US Army Reserve training supervisor to a Maine sheriff in September reveal the high level of concern the gunman's fellow reservists had about the severity of his mental illness.

www.bostonglobe.com

 

[MyBelle]

This decision should never be up to family or relatives, IMO. In some states, it's illegal, as you said. And in other states, what is the family supposed to do with it??? Guns, while legal, are regulated at least somewhat. It would be like confiscating the cocaine of someone who has a drug problem or the prescription for a controlled substance of someone you think might abuse them. Leave it to LE or medical professionals. They'll insure the weapons are taken care of if there's a threat.

And no, depression does not constitute stripping someone of their rights.

BBM. Link? I've never heard of any state that makes it a crime for a family or relatives to remove weapons from an emotionally fragile loved one they fear will harm themselves. In this case, the shooter's family was worried and told LE they would remove his access to weapons. That didn't happen, unfortunately.

In states with Extreme Risk laws, the decision isn't left up to the family or relatives, it is a decision made by a judge and it is temporary.
JMO

Extreme Risk Laws | Everytown

Extreme Risk laws allow loved ones or law enforcement to petition a court for an order to temporarily prevent someone in crisis from accessing guns.

www.everytown.org

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

BBM. Link? I've never heard of any state that makes it a crime for a family or relatives to remove weapons from an emotionally fragile loved one they fear will harm themselves.

Well, Maine is one of those states. I posted a link in a post just before the one you quoted, but here it is again.

Maine's 'yellow flag' law could be a model for gun control, but legal experts say it has limitations

A Maine law has been described as a potential national model for keeping guns out of the hands of dangerous or suicidal individuals. But the state's so-called yellow flag law has only been used two dozen times in two years, and prosecutors say the law has both advantages and limitations.

www.mainepublic.org

"Unlike the red flag laws that are in effect in roughly 20 states, Maine's yellow flag law does not allow family members to directly petition a judge to order someone to temporarily give up their guns and prohibit them from acquiring new firearms. Only police can issue a request."

Guns are a person's personal property. You can't take someone's property willy nilly. There are procedures in place and in the state of Maine, those procedures don't apply to family.

In this case, the shooter's family was worried and told LE they would remove his access to weapons. That didn't happen, unfortunately.

In states with Extreme Risk laws, the decision isn't left up to the family or relatives, it is a decision made by a judge and it is temporary.
JMO

Extreme Risk Laws | Everytown

Extreme Risk laws allow loved ones or law enforcement to petition a court for an order to temporarily prevent someone in crisis from accessing guns.

www.everytown.org

You're talking about an entirely different thing. I was saying that you can't just walk into your brother's home and take his guns (if he had any), no matter the reason for it. That's theft. If you feel he's at risk, you have to follow the procedure for it, if there is one. In the state of Maine, there is no procedure for relatives to lawfully take away guns from loved ones. There is a procedure for LE to do so.

I'm going to say MOO, but the link above, along with other MSM sources quoted in the thread spell out ME's yellow flag laws.