Flies and Maggots in the trunk - forensic entomology #1

[kgeaux]

George's statement to the police says he thinks there were insects of some sort in the trunk.

George opened the trunk, Simon chucked the bag, and LE collected it from the dumpster. Cindy never would have seen the contents.

The FBI forensic reports that were released specifically said that no pizza was found in the car.

I will continue to hope they were there because it will help convict her, but I think I will discount Cindy and George's accounting of them at the moment.

No pizza was found in the car, right? But do we know that NO PIZZA was found in the bag from the dumpster?

Or that any maggots were found IN the car?

 

[impatientredhead]

No pizza was found in the car, right? But do we know that NO PIZZA was found in the bag from the dumpster?

Or that any maggots were found IN the car?

That is what I am trying to find out! From a source other than George and Cindy. I would think they are including the bag as items found in the car but who knows.

 

[Pink Panther]

That is what I am trying to find out! From a source other than George and Cindy. I would think they are including the bag as items found in the car but who knows.

I don't think that they would include it as an item found in the car as it had been thrown over the fence and was retrieved in/nearby the dumpster. I think it would be itemized separately.

MOO

ETA - I am still holding out hope that there is additional important evidence found on, around, in that bag.

 

[Dolce171]

When someones heart stops pumping blood around their body, the tissues and cells are deprived of oxygen and rapidly begin to die.

But different cells die at different rates. So, for example, brain cells die within three to seven minutes, while skin cells can be taken from a dead body for up to 24 hours after death and still grow normally in a laboratory culture.

From this point on, nature is very efficient at breaking down human corpses. Decomposition is well under way by the time burial or cremation occurs. However, the exact rate of decomposition depends to some extent on environmental conditions.

Decomposition in the air is twice as fast as when the body is under water and four times as fast as underground. Corpses are preserved longer when buried deeper, as long as the ground isn't waterlogged.

The intestines are packed with millions of micro-organisms that don't die with the person. These organisms start to break down the dead cells of the intestines, while some, especially bacteria called clostridia and coliforms, start to invade other parts of the body.

At the same time the body undergoes its own intrinsic breakdown under the action of enzymes and other chemicals which have been released by the dead cells. The pancreas, for example, is usually packed with digestive enzymes, and so rapidly digests itself.

The decomposing tissues release green substances and gas, which make the skin green/blue and blistered, starting on the abdomen. The front of the body swells, the tongue may protrude, and fluid from the lungs oozes out of the mouth and nostrils.

This unpleasant sight is added to by a terrible smell as gases such as hydrogen sulphide (rotten egg smell), methane and traces of mercaptans are released. This stage is reached in temperate countries after about four to six days, much faster in the tropics and slower in cold or dry conditions.

A corpse left above ground is then rapidly broken down by insects and animals, including bluebottles and carrion fly maggots, followed by beetles, ants and wasps.

In the tropics, a corpse can become a moving mass of maggots within 24 hours.

If there are no animals to destroy the body, hair, nails and teeth become detached within a few weeks, and after a month or so the tissues become liquefied and the main body cavities burst open.

I truly believe that she was placed somewhere in a protective covering (possibly buried), then moved to a different location, during that transport the protective covering was breached and that would explain the smell of decomp in the car, although the trunk is closed it is not sealed from the front compartment and the smell would migrate from the trunk to the inside compartment.

The body if buried and then moved would most likely leave trace amounts of soil in the trunk also. I think she left the car at Amscot because the smell was so bad that she could not stand it.

Often a body will be relocated to a different area, you have to remember that she is a CSI fan and although the stories they tell are not 100% accurate, they are also not that far off about body disposal.

At which point do you tie in the 2.6 days, that is the big question.

Fantastic Post Georgia PI .... you made it very easy for me to understand!!!!

Thank you!!!!!

 

[kgeaux]

Henry Lee said on Nancy Grace last night that there were maggots IN the trunk, so he answered my question! Thank Goodness, cuz it was driving me bonkers. What I understood was that there were STILL maggots in the trunk of the car, since he did not examine any other evidence, just the car.

That's weird. What food source would be keeping the fly life cycle going?

 

[Pink Panther]

Henry Lee said on Nancy Grace last night that there were maggots IN the trunk, so he answered my question! Thank Goodness, cuz it was driving me bonkers. What I understood was that there were STILL maggots in the trunk of the car, since he did not examine any other evidence, just the car.

That's weird. What food source would be keeping the fly life cycle going?

Could they be dead maggots? He didn't say they were alive did he?

 

[kgeaux]

Could they be dead maggots? He didn't say they were alive did he?

You're right, he didn't. I guess I assumed that any living maggots would have been collected as evidence when the trunk was first processed, so anything in the trunk NOW would have hatched AFTER the initial processing. But you are right, he did not say living.

Now you've got me thinking. Would LE have left maggots in the trunk?

 

[Pink Panther]

You're right, he didn't. I guess I assumed that any living maggots would have been collected as evidence when the trunk was first processed, so anything in the trunk NOW would have hatched AFTER the initial processing. But you are right, he did not say living.

Now you've got me thinking. Would LE have left maggots in the trunk?

I've been thinking the same thing. Maybe they found one. One dead maggot. Also - maybe it's not such a big deal if they collected the maggots they needed.

 

[BondJamesBond]

Also, FWIW, IIRC (and any other acronym you care to throw in there ) the bag was thrown over the fence in the direction of the dumpster & not actually in the dumpster itself. Which made it easy for Mr. WhatshisnametheTowyard-helluvaguyifuaskme-guy to retrieve it when he saw the news and before LE arrived to get it.

IMHO, YMMV, etc. etc. infinitum, Amen.

 

[Pink Panther]

Also, FWIW, IIRC (and any other acronym you care to throw in there ) the bag was thrown over the fence in the direction of the dumpster & not actually in the dumpster itself. Which made it easy for Mr. WhatshisnametheTowyard-helluvaguyifuaskme-guy to retrieve it when he saw the news and before LE arrived to get it.

IMHO, YMMV, etc. etc. infinitum, Amen.

According to Simon's testimony, he went back early the next morning to retrieve the bag but LE had already retrieved it the night before. GA had told them about it.

 

[BondJamesBond]

According to Simon's testimony, he went back early the next morning to retrieve the bag but LE had already retrieved it the night before. GA had told them about it.

...stealing trash from towyards...your tax dollars at work. What's next?

 

[JWG]

Simon Burch says in his interview that when they opened the trunk there was "flies and stuff". He picked up the garbage bag and found it to be surprisingly light. He opened it up and George was right next to him, and there were a bunch of papers on top (paper towels perhaps?) He thought he saw a pizza box but then wasn't sure and thought he might simply have heard that on TV. He threw the bag over the fence and I guess missed the dumpster, because after the Anthony's left he went back, picked up the bag, and tossed it into the dumpster.

When he went back later to retrieve the bag (OCSO had actually already done so) he said that he thought he would recognize it because it was a white back and they use black bags, and because of all the flies. The tow yard does not generate a lot of really bad garbage, according to Mr. Burch.

In George's interview he mentions seeing the pizza box, Arm&Hammer laundry detergent, lint, and "insect able things" - presumably maggots.

 

[weasel]

<<Henry Lee said on Nancy Grace last night that there were maggots IN the trunk,>>

That guy and Dr. Baden both make me ill. I was watching NG last night too and when Lee started in on his "food in the trunk" explaination, I said to my husband, how long you think it'll be before they announce that he's employed by the defense? I had no idea he already was. It wasn't 5 minutes later, NG made the comment that Lee has in fact been hired by the defense. I used to have alot of respect for Lee and Baden, but ever since the OJ case, they have both proven that they're in it for the money, just like everybody else. Lee kept making comments that there was food containers and such in the trunk and how he couldn't be certain that was decomposition smell. Oh BS! He's a scientist. He knows FULL WELL what decomposition smells like. Just goes to prove anybody can be bought.

 

[elle1919]

I find it increasingly odd that NOW we hear from Henry Lee that there were maggots in the trunk of the car still! What sickens me though is He also said there were food containers and other things like that in there.(Ham and cheese). Every time I hear talk of what they found in the trunk of that car and it is leftover remnants of food I get this sick picture of Casey keeping Caylee in the car and bringing her food and all the leftover containers are what was left when Caylee finished. I feel like in the last month of Caylee's life her evenings were spent in Casey's car, subdued with the chloroform, and munching on whatever her mommy brought her. I have four children that are so dear to me I just can't wrap my mind around what this woman did to her child!

 

[JWG]

It think OCSO will need to look at the "garbage" that was left in the car and trunk - especially food containers with or without food. Then they will need to get another white Pontiac and put similar containers in it, and keep it outside in the sun for 31 days (or actually, enough days to match June / July accumulated degree days). After that time has elapsed they will need to take an air sample and have the body farm analyze it. If they do not then Dr. Lee will use his "findings" to cast doubt with a jury.

That aside, one would think if food containers were indeed the source of the smell that KC would have discarded them when the smell started. She did not, indicating she knew the source of the smell.

 

[concentric]

That aside, one would think if food containers were indeed the source of the smell that KC would have discarded them when the smell started. She did not, indicating she knew the source of the smell.

Excellent observation--dead squirrels weren't in the trunk either.

 

[kpalma715]

I have a question about this. Does anyone know if LE ever got samples of the maggots left behind in the car? They can easily test the maggots to see what it was feeding off ( dead body). This would be more evidence in the court room. I haven't seen this in any of the documents. Just wondering if CA cleaned up the maggots before LE got to the car.

 

[elle1919]

I have a question about this. Does anyone know if LE ever got samples of the maggots left behind in the car? They can easily test the maggots to see what it was feeding off ( dead body). This would be more evidence in the court room. I haven't seen this in any of the documents. Just wondering if CA cleaned up the maggots before LE got to the car.

I wondered the exact same thing....this is where the information gets sketchy...nowhere in the forensic reports does it mention testing on the maggots in the car. I know this can be done and has been done in other cases, so why no mention of it here and do you think it is left out of the initial reports on purpose for some reason by the prosecution?

 

[Recovering-Lurker]

I have a question about this. Does anyone know if LE ever got samples of the maggots left behind in the car? They can easily test the maggots to see what it was feeding off ( dead body). This would be more evidence in the court room. I haven't seen this in any of the documents. Just wondering if CA cleaned up the maggots before LE got to the car.

I really, really hope so. There was a rumor on another board that someone talked to the Oak Ridge National Lab, and they said they did have maggots from the car. I don't think they would tell some random person that, but you never know. I pray it's true!

 

[kpalma715]

I found this interesting:

http://patrishka.wordpress.com/2008/10/25/the-fbi-reports-released-caylee-anthony-is-dead/