2009.03.14 Geraldo - Dr. Baden, Slip or Not on Chloroform In Caylee's hair test?

[jamielynn]

NG's producer purchased a bottle on line for $45. She had to check a box saying she was legally "allowed" to handle/use/whatever the qualifier was.

Chloroform causes severe nausea and headaches I can't imagine a whiny healthy baby vs a sick calm baby would be worth the trade off. That's just me tho. Of course had she used it once she could always use it as a threat in the future.

I'm not completely on board with regular use of chloroform for all the reasons above (mine and yours). But I feel chloroform came into this crime somewhere.

I agree! IMO, KC used xanex untill the very last day.

 

[cheko1]

Casey had to be doing something with Caylee... she was out with friends etc / spending the night. Where the heck was Caylee? I know C & G watched her alot but they also worked / so where was Caylee?

 

[GoneWithTheWind]

My question is.....does chloroform show up in hair folicles? Would it show up if it was administered on a regular basis?? And can it be determined for how long it was given??

How did Casey learn to use chloroform? We know how she learned how to make it, but what triggered her using it on her baby? Has anyone got any ideas if it was used commonly by teens for sexual fun or to get high, or to take advantage of victims?

 

[GoneWithTheWind]

Just emailed Kathy B just in case the media did not catch it.

Who is Kathy B?

 

[GoneWithTheWind]

IMO, KC had to have been administering chloroform over a period of time - long enough to allow the chemical to show itself not only in the hair follicle, but the hair growth. The experts can even tell the approximate length of time the chemical was being given according to the amount of hair growth that shows chloroform AND in what concentrations at various stages. These tests have long been proven to be accurate.

I think the chloroform was making Caylee's hair fall out. She definitely had to semi-bald spots on the sides of her head which was very evident in the Father day video with her hair in a ponytail.

 

[sarah7855]

Who is Kathy B?

Last name Belich, WFTV reporter

http://www.wftv.com/station/1981969/detail.html

 

[sarah7855]

How did Casey learn to use chloroform? We know how she learned how to make it, but what triggered her using it on her baby? Has anyone got any ideas if it was used commonly by teens for sexual fun or to get high, or to take advantage of victims?

Here's a few chloroform related threads for you to read if you'd like:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70561&highlight=chloroform

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70313&highlight=Chloroform

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70241&highlight=Chloroform

But, basically, the general consensus is that it's not widely used for sexual fun or to get high.

 

[concentric]

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0903/17/ng.01.html

To Dr. David Posey, medical examiner, forensic pathologist, with Glen Oaks Pathology Medical

Group in L.A. Doctor, thank you for being with us. Doctor, Explain to me whether hair can

reveal the presence of chloroform poisoning?

DR. DAVID M. POSEY, MEDICAL EXAMINER, GLEN OAKS PATHOLOGY MEDICAL GROUP: I think if it`s

been used over and over, you can see it in encarnicity (ph). I think.

GRACE: Whoa, whoa. What? What did you just say?

POSEY: Well, encarnicity (ph). It takes time for the chloroform to get into the hair and the

hair has to grow out of the follicle. And so if we`re saying, in this case, for example,

there is just one incidence where the chloroform was used to knock her out, tape her mouth

and so forth, it may not get into hair. So we`ve got to look at the fat, the skin.

GRACE: Let me ask you this doctor. If chloroform got on the hair, if chloroform were put

over the face and got on the hair, would it show up on the hair?

POSEY: I don`t think I know that answer. It could possibly chemically combine with it. But

from my understanding, if it`s used multiple times like as an anesthetic, it can grow -- get

into the hair. And that`s what -- I think the issue here is if it was used more than once,

that may go to what was going on, how many times the intent so far.

GRACE: You know, Dr. Posey, that`s an excellent observation. Many people were deciphering

this to mean did the hair show chloroform use the day Caylee was murdered. But your point is

long-term use of chloroform, repeated usages of chloroform as some type of a sedative or

baby-sitter could actually show up.

Dr. Posey, that, you know, is a whole different look at this. And you believe that extended

use of chloroform would show up in the hair?

POSEY: That`s my understanding. I`ve talked to some toxicologists today. And they said it`s

used for chronicity and not for the acute. Acute would have to have a piece of skin, some

fat, liver tissue, something of that nature. You can extract it. You actually use a totally

different extraction method because chloroform itself is an agent used for extracting most

drugs.

But I think that`s something that I thought about and as I`ve thought about the chloroform

issue over the last few months since it`s been brought up, I`ve often wondered if that isn`t

where the prosecution is going to see if they can show that there`s chronicity of use of the

drug and that.

GRACE: What is chronicity? What is chronicity?

POSEY: Chronicity means being used over and over and over again, as you stated a few moments

ago, the idea of using that as your baby-sitter, you know, knock her out, and don`t have to

worry about her.

GRACE: Got it.


08-30-2008, 09:03 PM
concentric
Registered User Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,282

Quote:
Originally Posted by curiositycat
While I too think that the calls were probably Casey panicked about something another

thought crossed my mind today.
What if Casey just wanted to go out and was desperately looking for them to babysit Caylee.

Maybe out of frustration she "did away" with Caylee.

I have so many conflicting theories about what really happened to Caylee. I bet I'm not the only one.


I can totally imagine that out of her frustration at not having anyone to watch Caylee she
could have given her some medicine to put her asleep, left her sleeping in the car somewhere
and when she returned Caylee was unconscious and unrevivable--she could have successfully pulled this off before. Maybe she even tried some CPR, etc. to no avail. She made some calls to parents and boyfriend but couldn't reach them. So, she decides to handle things her own way.

 

[Asti]

We have a child here now the same age as Caylee when she died and her hair is sparse on the sides although she has long hair otherwise just like Caylee's so that may not mean anything. Could Dr. Baden have gotten his information from Dr. Lee? I mean people in the same profession discuss cases sometimes. Do they even call each other up to ask a question about something they are seeing under a slide, etc. Just a thought.

 

[Nore]

To Dr. David Posey, medical examiner, forensic pathologist, with Glen Oaks Pathology Medical

Group in L.A. Doctor, thank you for being with us. Doctor, Explain to me whether hair can

reveal the presence of chloroform poisoning?

DR. DAVID M. POSEY, MEDICAL EXAMINER, GLEN OAKS PATHOLOGY MEDICAL GROUP: I think if it`s

been used over and over, you can see it in encarnicity (ph). I think.

GRACE: Whoa, whoa. What? What did you just say?

POSEY: Well, encarnicity (ph). It takes time for the chloroform to get into the hair and the

hair has to grow out of the follicle. And so if we`re saying, in this case, for example,

there is just one incidence where the chloroform was used to knock her out, tape her mouth

and so forth, it may not get into hair. So we`ve got to look at the fat, the skin.

GRACE: Let me ask you this doctor. If chloroform got on the hair, if chloroform were put

over the face and got on the hair, would it show up on the hair?

POSEY: I don`t think I know that answer. It could possibly chemically combine with it. But

from my understanding, if it`s used multiple times like as an anesthetic, it can grow -- get

into the hair. And that`s what -- I think the issue here is if it was used more than once,

that may go to what was going on, how many times the intent so far.

GRACE: You know, Dr. Posey, that`s an excellent observation. Many people were deciphering

this to mean did the hair show chloroform use the day Caylee was murdered. But your point is

long-term use of chloroform, repeated usages of chloroform as some type of a sedative or

baby-sitter could actually show up.

Dr. Posey, that, you know, is a whole different look at this. And you believe that extended

use of chloroform would show up in the hair?

POSEY: That`s my understanding. I`ve talked to some toxicologists today. And they said it`s

used for chronicity and not for the acute. Acute would have to have a piece of skin, some

fat, liver tissue, something of that nature. You can extract it. You actually use a totally

different extraction method because chloroform itself is an agent used for extracting most

drugs.

But I think that`s something that I thought about and as I`ve thought about the chloroform

issue over the last few months since it`s been brought up, I`ve often wondered if that isn`t

where the prosecution is going to see if they can show that there`s chronicity of use of the

drug and that.

GRACE: What is chronicity? What is chronicity?

POSEY: Chronicity means being used over and over and over again, as you stated a few moments

ago, the idea of using that as your baby-sitter, you know, knock her out, and don`t have to

worry about her.

GRACE: Got it.


08-30-2008, 09:03 PM
concentric
Registered User Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,282

Quote:
Originally Posted by curiositycat
While I too think that the calls were probably Casey panicked about something another

thought crossed my mind today.
What if Casey just wanted to go out and was desperately looking for them to babysit Caylee.

Maybe out of frustration she "did away" with Caylee.

I have so many conflicting theories about what really happened to Caylee. I bet I'm not the only one.


I can totally imagine that out of her frustration at not having anyone to watch Caylee she
could have given her some medicine to put her asleep, left her sleeping in the car somewhere
and when she returned Caylee was unconscious and unrevivable--she could have successfully pulled this off before. Maybe she even tried some CPR, etc. to no avail. She made some calls to parents and boyfriend but couldn't reach them. So, she decides to handle things her own way.

-------------------------------------------
I probably shouldn't say this as I cant remember exactly where I read it.It was in an article on the Body Farm site.Chloroform will not keep a person out for a long time.In the old movies someone would stand by the "patient" and dropping it on cloth,drop by drop.I know from this site she used chloroform.I think she gave her something else also,something to keep her out,chloroform to get her started.Maybe too much of each killed her. At any rate she had to know too much could kill her ~ I dont think she really cared.
Your theory is a good one.

 

[BondJamesBond]

Summary of what NG & Posey speculated (in 486 words) by BJB (in 12 words).

IF Casey used chloroform repeatedly it might show up in the hair.

Well....duuuuuuuuuuuuuuh :doh:

Hey - that's a (486-12)= 474/486*100 = 97.5% reduction in reading mat'l

FWIW: Link to the "All About Chloroform #2" thread here. (37 pages for your reading pleasure).

 

[JDzWife]

On HLN, Dr. Baden says he "misspoke" when talking about chloroform and Caylee's hair.

 

[Nore]

We have a child here now the same age as Caylee when she died and her hair is sparse on the sides although she has long hair otherwise just like Caylee's so that may not mean anything. Could Dr. Baden have gotten his information from Dr. Lee? I mean people in the same profession discuss cases sometimes. Do they even call each other up to ask a question about something they are seeing under a slide, etc. Just a thought.

----------------
Curious,check out the body Farm.There is an article about Caylee.They state she had chloroform in her hair.I dont know how to get the urls'yet. I think the article was uhder Forensics,they mention the car also,

 

[LisaNY]

I think the chloroform was making Caylee's hair fall out. She definitely had to semi-bald spots on the sides of her head which was very evident in the Father day video with her hair in a ponytail.

Oh my, I hate to even think this, and it hurts to write it, but could it have been that she was taping her mouth shut in the past, along with drugging her and putting her in the trunk? Then when she woke up, she couldn't scream or cry to get out of the trunk. Perhaps that is why she put a sticker on the tape, to make it some sort of sick game. Just the thought of that is very frightening.

speculation & opinion only

 

[Recovering-Lurker]

----------------
Curious,check out the body Farm.There is an article about Caylee.They state she had chloroform in her hair.I dont know how to get the urls'yet. I think the article was uhder Forensics,they mention the car also,

There is? I've never heard this. I hope you can find a link for us soon. Thanks!

 

[concentric]

Summary of what NG & Posey speculated (in 486 words) by BJB (in 12 words).

IF Casey used chloroform repeatedly it might show up in the hair.

Well....duuuuuuuuuuuuuuh :doh:

Hey - that's a (486-12)= 474/486*100 = 97.5% reduction in reading mat'l

FWIW: Link to the "All About Chloroform #2" thread here. (37 pages for your reading pleasure).

Just a note, our posts were made before the "All About Chloroform #2" thread was on the board. Saying that we questioned earlier that it could have been a chronic usage.

 

[Tiki]

----------------
Curious,check out the body Farm.There is an article about Caylee.They state she had chloroform in her hair.I dont know how to get the urls'yet. I think the article was uhder Forensics,they mention the car also,

To get URL, just go back to the page you were on and right click on the http:// adress. On the pop up menu click on copy then click on the link symbol in the reply box - paste or type the link in the box that pops up.

Or you can copy by hitting Ctrl plus c
and paste by hittin CTRL plus vIf it doesn't work for you, just type the url in your post. I and others, I think, would like to read the article.

 

[shgrbkr]

Did the body farm get the hair for testing? I thought that one hair from the trunk went to Quantico?

 

[BondJamesBond]

Completely OT, but, thanks to Dr. Posey I've got an earworm for that Police song now [Syn]chronicity. :bang: Released in '83. Great album, er, CD.

 

[twomanywords]

Here is the link but I can't find the article!
http://web.utk.edu/~fac/