I don't think they thought the ink could be analyzed or that the "practice" note was visible on the pad. I think they thought it plausible that an intruder would use the things there in the house. And obviously, some find it plausible.
How difficult to forge PR's handwriting?
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I don't think they thought the ink could be analyzed or that the "practice" note was visible on the pad. I think they thought it plausible that an intruder would use the things there in the house. And obviously, some find it plausible.
LE
"Oh this note looks like it with a black colored sharpie. Oh look, on the same desk a foot away is a sharpie, black color. Let's test it. Let's ask the R's where this notepad came from"
Did they also think that handwriting analysis would NOT be linked to them?
well only the letter "q" and only with a sharpie-- well now that I think about it if you hand me a sharpie some simple letters b p c d f h i j l s t u w x y z m, n, v, o and numbers 1 8 0 could be drawn like PR AND the RN to fool even her mother but only with my right hand. (I don't draw hooded a's though) -- although I would need to see a sample of PR's handwriting to do this.
I never learned to write them like that.
I have often wondered if that were the case precisely!
He had his own problems to deal with.
I don't think Ames was speaking literally.
I have often wondered if they had a specific "fall-guy" in mind who would know these things.
I think they believed they had done a good enough job disguising it. (Sure as hell wouldn't be the first time someone thought they could outsmart the cops. Especially in a town like Boulder, where cops are held in contempt.)
Ames
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Then JR wouldn't have been able to proclaim..."I believe it's an inside job". I think that they were going go blame it on LHP at first, and then when she didn't stick, they went through their list of friends. So, to them...if LHP had of "left" the RN note...she would have "left" the pen and pad that it was used to write it on.
That's quite risky since LHP & "list of friends" could point the finger back at them, even manufacturing testimony implicating the R's to do so. An IDI would want this since it obviously defers suspicion on himself.
True, BUT how many of them could muster the kind of legal talent the Rs could?
Leaving aside the issue of perjury, with the kind of lawyers the Rs had, that would be like shooting at a battleship with a BB gun.
Moreover, I think the "inside job" stuff was a way to cover all bases, as it were.
So JR thought "we'll try to make it look like an inside job and suggest housekeeper and friends knowing we can beat them w/ high price legal talent"
Even OJ & his dream team did not think this. And OJ is no JR.
So PR wrote the RN both as a confession to murder and to try convince LE that it was an inside job. I guess that is covering all bases -- the home base that is.
No, I really don't think they did. PR wrote the note in haste, sloppily, and it has been speculated with her left hand.
The Rs lawyers saw to it that their own handwriting experts could muddy the waters.
I truly believe that night they formed their own "short list" (though it grew to encompass nearly everyone they ever knew) of who they could pin this on. I think LHP was at the top of that list. They viewed her as expendable, someone without the resources to really fight back. They may even have hoped she would NOT get convicted- so they could feel better about blaming an innocent person. To them, she was very beneath their social standing, no matter how Patsy confided in her. She was a cleaning lady. End of story.
JR's comment to Det. Arndt IMMEDIATELY after he "found" his daughter is suspicious just by it's timing. I mean, you discover the dead body (he knew, believe me) of your 6-year old daughter, garroted and wrapped in her own blanket in your own home. And the first thing you say is "this is an inside job"? That is the kind of thing that comes out while you are trying to help LE solve the crime.
No anguished cries, no hysteria. Right from the get-go put the suspicion on the person you felt it would best stick to. The housekey, the familiarity with the home AND JB. The need for money. (guess they never thought how senseless it was for LHP to ask for ransom and not provide a victim to actually...ransom.
When the case they were building against this hapless woman never really took off (no forensic evidence, and a woman quite willing to talk to LE- she was quickly ruled out by them after willingly providing prints, hair, saliva, etc) they turned the wheels of the bus towards other "insiders".
Interesting that in the beginning the Rs themselves were not really pushing a stranger intruder. They were going for someone who was familiar. Guess they had to, with JR's comment coming so quickly after the body was found.
He might have been genuinely 'innocent' but thinking 'inside job' after reading the RN and thinking the worse which would be understandable given some details like $118k and 'it's up to you John'
Hardly. I really don't think it was that thought-out. More like it just happened. But fundamentally, he probably figured she (and others) were an easy target: poor, not too well-educated, the lot.
Just remember which one of those came first. The Rs knew OJ could buy the justice he wanted. Why couldn't they?
You lost me.
No, no. The RN was meant to convince that it was not a fmaily member. The "inside job" was JR's doing, for whatever reason. You know, you're making this a LOT harder than it needs to be.
voynich, if I had a nickel for every time a criminal tripped themselves up thinking they had it all figured out, I'd be a rich man!
That's what I was TRYING to say, DeeDee. Sometimes there's a disconnect between my brain and my mouth (or in this case, fingers).
One poster said that the RN was as close to a "confession" as we are likely to get. Not sure how to find that post, now buried on hundreds of others.
Yes, OJ predates the R's. OJ, Susan Smith, Jeffrey MacDonald, Samuel Shapperd did attempt to mislead LE w/an insider job. I drew the opposite conclusion, that even if they could buy justice as OJ did, they may go to trial and even if they win will be under the umbrella of suspicion and a persona non grata. And if they go to court with an insider job theory but fail to provide viable insiders, well that will be worse than OJ.
PR "Only an insider could know my husband received a $118k bonus that Xmas. Only four people in the world knew this, me, my husband, payroll, and the murderer, and investigators cleared payroll"
I find it hard to see how the RN was written not to convince LE it was NOT a family member since it contained details ($118k) and a personal address (it's up to you now John) that would suggest it was a family member.
Well like general grievous I like to collect my nickels from sith lords I've just killed.
That was me. And I'm pretty sure I had a different meaning in mind then you're giving it right now. I'd explain, but it gets technical, and I doubt I'd get anywhere.
You're forgetting one thing, voynich: in all of those cases, the fabricated criminals were popular fears of the day. Let me go down the list before I show you where I'm headed with this:
OJ blamed hired killers working for South American drug barons, similar to those in "Scarface."
Smith blamed a black man who was little more than a racist caricature of a jive-talking "gangsta" in the South.
MacDonald tried to play on fears of the Manson family.
Now we have the RN, which combines Islamic terrorism with pedophile kidnappings. Think about that.
I think I'd STILL prefer that to "shower time" in prison. (Sorry if that's a bit graphic for you folks.)
Too bad she couldn't give an explanation that lucid.
You're certainly making it harder for me to explain it.
Some people just can't help themselves.
Well, that's the difference between us, Master Jedi: when I get through, there's nothing left.
Lately this thread has spawned and interesting number of subtopics:
1) Was PR drugged or psychotic?
2) How could JR allow her to write that, if he was aware of it at all.
3) The "fall-guy" issue.
4) Using million-$ lawyers and PIs against people who can't really defend themselves
5) Trying to play on popular fears in the RN (a personal favorite issue of mine).
6) Whether the writer's subconscious crept into the RN.
7) The issue of whether or not fear of prison played a part.
And, hopefully, we'll get to all of that. But for right now, I have one question purely out of personal curiosity:
Voynich, what are your current thoughts on the Cherokee analysis?
1) Was PR drugged or psychotic?
2) How could JR allow her to write that, if he was aware of it at all.
3) The "fall-guy" issue.
4) Using million-$ lawyers and PIs against people who can't really defend themselves
5) Trying to play on popular fears in the RN (a personal favorite issue of mine).
6) Whether the writer's subconscious crept into the RN.
7) The issue of whether or not fear of prison played a part.
And, hopefully, we'll get to all of that. But for right now, I have one question purely out of personal curiosity:
Voynich, what are your current thoughts on the Cherokee analysis?
2goldfish
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(snipped)
no, they are correct. they need the original. what happened to it? And, I suspect the sharpie has something to do with difficulty in analysing. Most people write with a pen or pencil and plenty of characteristics visible in writing with a pen for example would be absent with a sharpie. (might as well state I am not exactly a pro but years of amateur study and rarely wrong in all these years so the people I analyse have told me)
I am interested about where ames says there are hooked letters, examining both the RN online and the PR sample also online I feel they are the same author - but never enlarged it to closely look because so much other evidence IMO did not necessitate it - so I will have to take a look... this isnt exactly a common trait and I am not suprised to hear of it out of PR. (it is indicitive of a sharp tongue and a somewhat cruel person...I never thought she intended to kill JBR but I sure think rage wasnt out of her character )
Ames
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I have heard that it was difficult to analyze because the ink "bled", being a Sharpie pen. It would be the same as writing with a sharp pointed magic marker. Another thing that could make a difference...when it came to the actual RN and Patsy's sample RN...is the fact that the original sharpie was taken into evidence, so Patsy used another one. I know, from experience that the more a sharpie is used, the more the letters become "thicker", because the sharp point becomes flattened. So, if one sharpie had been used more than the other...that will make a difference in the appearance of the letters. As far as the thickness of them goes...now, its not going to make a difference when it comes to the way she wrote the characters. Like the hooded a for example, or the hooked letters.
Speaking of the hooked letters, you will DEFINATELY see that Patsy AND the RN author...put hooks at the end of their letters with tails, all you need to do is save it, and enlarge it. Like Y's for example. And another poster (Icetea?) pointed out that Patsy and the RN author also put a slash at the top of their d's...as in "if you talk to so much as a dog, she will be killed". There is a slash, at the top of both Patsy's d's and the RN author's, because...IMO...they are one in the same.
It was destroyed long ago during fingerprint testing. But as for needing the original, the only real loss by not using the original is measuring pressure. Voynich has said, and I can't really disagree, that using a sharpie would, by nature, obfuscate that beyond repair anyway.
You are quite right.
Why did it have to be destroyed? Were the fingerprints methods that destructive? I mean, its not like it was Carbon 14 dating (which is very destructive).
Shouldn't (in)voluntary handwriting samples from suspects also be written in used, wide-tipped sharpie on a notepad?