How difficult to forge PR's handwriting?

[BBB167893]

I am aware that standard arguments about using originals hinge on pressure applied. Since a marker was used I'm not sure whether these arguments apply.

I have often said that! (I guess great minds do think alike.)

I do wonder how many or what percent of individuals that could emulate the handwriting appearance present in the RN (I don't personally know). One interesting experiment, would be to take known convicted child molesters-pedophiles in jail, and possibly cat home burglars, and ask them to consciously try to imitate as closely as they can, look at some samples of PR's handwriting, but not the actual hand written RN itself, and a text of the RN, and then try to write it out as closely as they can, and then present this and PR exemplars to the "experts" to see what they think, and whether, under the circumstances, they still identify PR over these other attempts.

That sounds worth a try. But how would you go about it? I mean, it's not like the prisoners would be going anywhere. But they still have rights. If they refuse, that's the end of it. What then?

I'd like to think a professional and convicted forger would have better things to forge in his spare time, like wills, contracts, checks, than bogus RN notes.

I guess you'd have to ask someone at the DOJ.

What do these various experts say about one another's conclusions?

That's an interesting story in and of itself! Indeed, it goes to the heart of the politicking I've been mentioning.

My own opinion is that PR and RN do look alike. What I don't know is how well a pedophile/cat burglar could, working with some samples of PR's handwriting, also produce a similar effort.

And we may never know.

So, hypothetically speaking, let's say that 70% of convicted pedophiles can look at Patsy's Xmas greeting card and letters present among her personal effects in 1996, written in her handwriting, and working with a printed text of the RN, could make an RN that convinces the experts it's a much better match than PR's police submitted and dictated examples. How much confidence would you have then, as opposed to say 1%?

Voynich, I realize you're sincere about this. But so am I when I say that I think ol' Yogi has it down: "making predictions is hard, especially about the future."

 

[Tadpole12]

superimposed 's' s ... superimposed most of the 's' exemplars of the rn share at least two points of contact, atleast one starting point or ending point, lots of 's's .... didn't do all of them.

Hotyh, you'll find this very interesting, I do atleast. THE Ws, (lower case)

The 'w's when superimposed, are duplicates in size and form. and the 3 high end points of the symbol allign.

with one notable exception ....the the 'w' in the word "will" . page 1 of rn (When you get home you will put the money in a brown paper pag)

superimposed that 'w', the one in the word will, is exactly twice the spacing of the typical 'w' in the rn,
ie when superimposed the second u of the 'w' in the word "will" alligns perfectly with the first and third high end points of a 'typical' 'w' in the rn.

Upper case 'W's, when cut n' pasted, and superimposed upon the lower case 'w', look like an extension of the lower case 'w'. with the first u of the upper case 'W' being the same spacing as the lower case 'w', when alligned using the base points.

Cut n' paste, and superimpose the 'W' & 'w's, on p 1 of the rn, holdon.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/ransom1.html

 

[voynich]

I have often said that! (I guess great minds do think alike.)"

LOL, I'm thinking that you plan to kill me in my sleep -- Treachery is the way of the Sith. :furious:

Seriously, how about a contest for college students. Using PR's hand written greeting cards as a template, $10k for the first place winner college student that can write the RN as closely as they can to PR's handwriting, and the winner is selected by handwriting experts who compare their entry to PR's to the RN and declare the college student the best match.

Second place winner gets their choice of a blue, green or red lightsaber. :blowkiss:

 

[BBB167893]

LOL, I'm thinking that you plan to kill me in my sleep -- Treachery is the way of the Sith. :furious:

I figured that's where one of us would end up!

Seriously, how about a contest for college students. Using PR's hand written greeting cards as a template, $10k for the first place winner college student that can write the RN as closely as they can to PR's handwriting, and the winner is selected by handwriting experts who compare their entry to PR's to the RN and declare the college student the best match.

Second place winner gets their choice of a blue, green or red lightsaber. :blowkiss:

From a personal standpoint, my take on that is "why bother?" See, for me, it's close enough for jazz, as my dad would say (as if I haven't ALREADY made myself clear on that).

Still, from an intellectual standpoint, I'm intrigued.

 

[voynich]

RDI eat the Sith Lords for breakfast.

DeeDee,
Sith Lords are our speciality

 

[voynich]

I figured that's where one of us would end up!

"Sith Lords kill one another, it's all about power. ONe master, one apprentice until DEATH changes the equation" -- EU Quinlan Vos to Dooku

From a personal standpoint, my take on that is "why bother?" See, for me, it's close enough for jazz, as my dad would say (as if I haven't ALREADY made myself clear on that).

Still, from an intellectual standpoint, I'm intrigued.

Nah, you want the second place prize of a red lightsaber.

If any college student off the street with some artistic talent can create handwriting that looks like the RN handwriting, more so than PR's exemplars, that they fool the professional handwriting experts, how much confidence would you have in handwriting analysis?

I'm suggesting that some examples that should be studied alongside PR's are those that very consciously TRIES to imitate her handwriting. (Obviously no prime suspect one wants to do that and be thus linked)

 

[BBB167893]

"Sith Lords kill one another, it's all about power. ONe master, one apprentice until DEATH changes the equation" -- EU Quinlan Vos to Dooku

Just because there are two of you, do not presume you have the advantage.

Nah, you want the second place prize of a red lightsaber.

Icing on the cake!

If any college student off the street with some artistic talent can create handwriting that looks like the RN handwriting, more so than PR's exemplars, that they fool the professional handwriting experts, how much confidence would you have in handwriting analysis?

Not much, I can tell you. I have my doubts about it NOW, to be honest. But you're talking a MASSIVE "if." Enormous, to tell the truth.

I'm suggesting that some examples that should be studied alongside PR's are those that very consciously TRIES to imitate her handwriting. (Obviously no prime suspect one wants to do that and be thus linked)

I realize what you're saying. And between you, me and the Wampa, it's not without merit. But think about the dynamics involved. It's quite daunting, really.

 

[voynich]

Just because there are two of you, do not presume you have the advantage.

"You have the fighting style of a Sith, but this can be imitated. I sense fear in you and Sith Lords have no fear." Dooku to Asajj Ventress in the Clone Wars cartoon EU.

Not much, I can tell you. I have my doubts about it NOW, to be honest. But you're talking a MASSIVE "if." Enormous, to tell the truth.
I realize what you're saying. And between you, me and the Wampa, it's not without merit. But think about the dynamics involved. It's quite daunting, really.

I've been from one handwriting expert to another, I've seen a lot of strange things, but I've not seen one all powerful handwriting expert in control of everything. It's all a bunch of smoke and mirrors and nonsense.

 

[Tadpole12]

If you look very, VERY closely...enlarge the actual RN and Patsy's RN Sample...you will see very clearly, that any letter with a tail...like a Y for example...has a hook at the end of it. Both in the actual RN AND Patsy's sample RN. Almost like a checkmark...kind of. I can't duplicate it here, using a laptop keyboard.

Hi Ames,

yes like little notch at the tail.

as do the / which form the % marks on page 2 & page 3 of the rn, 99% 100%

99% http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/ransom2.html

100% http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/ransom3.html

 

[Tadpole12]

LOL, I'm thinking that you plan to kill me in my sleep -- Treachery is the way of the Sith. :furious:

Seriously, how about a contest for college students. Using PR's hand written greeting cards as a template, $10k for the first place winner college student that can write the RN as closely as they can to PR's handwriting, and the winner is selected by handwriting experts who compare their entry to PR's to the RN and declare the college student the best match.

Second place winner gets their choice of a blue, green or red lightsaber. :blowkiss:

Hi voynich.

Using PR's hand written greeting cards as a template - voynich

Exactly, that's what I've been doin' .... I've been playing around, a l'il cut and paste on the rn, myself.
Flippin and rotating those p's and d's and bs. (ds within the rn are oddly constructed, ds resemble and anl in form, and bs resemble a flipped p.


Dear

Mr. and Mrs. _____

Merry Christmas!
and
a Happy New Year!.
holliday season
to
from
Thank you,

Wishing you and your family.
All the best
in 1997
Hope

love
John
Patsey




account / amount (check out how the double ccs in account, resemble a lower case m in form, rather than the typical c in the rn.)

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/ransom1.html

 

[Tadpole12]

"Sith Lords kill one another, it's all about power. ONe master, one apprentice until DEATH changes the equation" -- EU Quinlan Vos to Dooku




Nah, you want the second place prize of a red lightsaber.

If any college student off the street with some artistic talent can create handwriting that looks like the RN handwriting, more so than PR's exemplars, that they fool the professional handwriting experts, how much confidence would you have in handwriting analysis?

I'm suggesting that some examples that should be studied alongside PR's are those that very consciously TRIES to imitate her handwriting. (Obviously no prime suspect one wants to do that and be thus linked)

hey, cut n' paste, circa 1996 would do.

Forget about doing it by hand, spacing would be an issue,

no detail or precision is needed, compared to what you would create in calligraphy, replication or an art piece.

just scan , file, increase scale, cut n' paste, center, fine print out on the lined paper and then trace the faint template with marker.

 

[voynich]

Hi,
I had in mind a template for a "forger" to get the look and feel for PR's handwriting from which to write the RN -- I'm sure handwriting experts used historical exemplars to compare her handwriting to RN using tools like computers scanners and superimposing images.

 

[Tadpole12]

Hi,
I had in mind a template for a "forger" to get the look and feel for PR's handwriting from which to write the RN

Hi voynich

Ya, for sure, written repetition would be the way to do it, if you had the knack.

-- I'm sure handwriting experts used historical exemplars to compare her handwriting to RN using tools like computers scanners and superimposing images.

prolly ... IDI wise, ya .... the rn's not a fine reproduction, reveals more about form and about the points of intersection and stops and starts.
When you superimpose each exemplars of the ransom note, there is an undeniable consistency of form.

I was just imagining how I would do it:cut n' paste wise or free hand.
Best would be a combo.

 

[voynich]

Hi voynich

Ya, for sure, written repetition would be the way to do it, if you had the knack.



prolly ... IDI wise, ya .... the rn's not a fine reproduction, reveals more about form and about the points of intersection and stops and starts.
When you superimpose each exemplars of the ransom note, there is an undeniable consistency of form.

I was just imagining how I would do it:cut n' paste wise or free hand.
Best would be a combo.

How do professional forgers do this?

 

[Ames]

Hi Ames,

yes like little notch at the tail.

as do the / which form the % marks on page 2 & page 3 of the rn, 99% 100%

99% http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/ransom2.html

100% http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/ransom3.html

Never noticed those before, thanks for posting this.

 

[Tadpole12]

Never noticed those before, thanks for posting this.

No prob.

Ya .... I loaded the Smoking Gun version of the rn
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/ransom1.html
into 'paint'

and I've been checking the axis points of various 'exemplars',
and the 'Y' 'y' s and % have similar slopes
(to find a reverse image).

most the heads of the lower case 'e' s are identicle, the overall variation exists in the remaining tail of the cusp.

and the lower case 'a's 'pretty much' align at three consistent points.

It's odd, but the rn does have a cn'p feeling, with respect to spacing, as certain couplets are spaced on a vetical axis (no slope), ie easy to 'cut n' drag' some couplets.

the 'st' , 'str' and 'st' + 'and' = 'stand' combinations are 'identical' in form,

the 'a' 'n' 'd' combination within the word stand has closer spacing when compared to the distance between the s and the t ('st') which begin the word

 

[TinaD]

I think the odd spacings can be explained quite easily if, as many people feel, John was dictating parts of the note to Patsy and she was stopping and starting rather than writing in a flow of her own thoughts.

I really don't think there was any "forger" trying to set Patsy up - the only one setting her up was JR.

 

[Tadpole12]

I think the odd spacings can be explained quite easily if, as many people feel, John was dictating parts of the note to Patsy and she was stopping and starting rather than writing in a flow of her own thoughts.

I really don't think there was any "forger" trying to set Patsy up - the only one setting her up was JR.

Hi Tina D.

Sure. Within the RDI scenario that's a more than reasonable explanation.

Deconstruction of the rn: The approach being to confirm the impossibilty of any other possible method of construction of the rn.

The note is comprised of content and it's visual form ... so why not attempt to deconstrust the visual.

The coming from a different field approach does no harm ...
and as holdon so aptly illustrates and exemplifies, heck why not just look at something from an uncommon perspective.

 

[Ames]

I think the odd spacings can be explained quite easily if, as many people feel, John was dictating parts of the note to Patsy and she was stopping and starting rather than writing in a flow of her own thoughts.

I really don't think there was any "forger" trying to set Patsy up - the only one setting her up was JR.

I agree with that, it makes total sense.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

I think the odd spacings can be explained quite easily if, as many people feel, John was dictating parts of the note to Patsy and she was stopping and starting rather than writing in a flow of her own thoughts.

Your observation doesn't help RDI because the same scenario can be applied to IDI: One intruder receiving dictation from another who didin't even have to be there.