2009.06.19 FBI Decomposition Report

[Devon]

Although the very high level of chloroform found certainly could be indicative of the substance having been purposely manufactured and used to subdue, render unconscious, or kill Caylee, I still think there may just have been a unique set of circumstances that caused this result.

The body was not only in an enclosed space, but was also further encased in plastic bags and subjected to the intensified heat within the trunk of a white car during a Florida summer. Chloroform apparently occurs very early in decomposition and is detected primarily in deprived oxygen conditions.

The comparison with 'typical' chloroform levels in adult decomp.studies does not indicate if the decomp.in those cases occurred under the same conditions or if the ADD periods were even the same, so IMO that comparison tells us nothing.

The other child's body used as a control was apparently wrapped only in a blanket, not encased in trash bags/a plastic lined laundry hamper, there is no mention of whether the trunk was opened/aired at any time or if the body was ever taken out/replaced during the 3 months before it was discovered. Is it possible that the levels of chloroform initially present in the trunk for the control body had dissipated/evaporated or otherwise altered in some other way during that 3 month period that affected the comparative test results?

There is also still the possibility that the high levels were caused by the action/reaction of products containing chloroform AND still the possibility that Caylee's body/clothes had contact with chlorinated water from a recently shocked (IIRC) pool before being wrapped and enclosed in the trunk.

 

[nativeSFL]

After the big temper tantrum/fight w/ CA, KC left there in a rage dragging poor Caylee along. Perhaps Caylee started crying about not being able to stay w/ Grandparents, that they were fighting, Caylee was scared & upset, KC was flipping out... KC gets furious w/ Caylee & frustrated that she is now "stuck" w/ Caylee when she's supposed to be seeing her man that night. She is trying to shush Caylee & she notices the duct tape in the car (didn't she borrow that from a friend or something?). She duct tapes Caylee's mouth area & puts her in the trunk. She drives to lover boy's & spends the night. Caylee passes away in the trunk. :frown: She leaves her there for a few days. I need to look at the timeline to be sure of all this though. She was driving around in lover boys Jeep for a while wasn't she? Then she had to do something with Caylees body. The smell wouldn't go away. She tried several different chemicals to get rid of it to no avail (causing the chloroform). Then she dumped the car at the Amscot. I do believe the original plan was to chloroform CA & GA then break their necks hence giving her the house. That's where the computer searches come in. The chloroform in the car was an unplanned effect of the chemicals & decomp. Again, just my theory & I need to actually look at a timeline.

 

[nativeSFL]

Anyone know if they were able to determine if the paper towels happened to be the same brand as the giant pack she purchased w/ Amy's dough?

 

[brownflower]

Although the very high level of chloroform found certainly could be indicative of the substance having been purposely manufactured and used to subdue, render unconscious, or kill Caylee, I still think there may just have been a unique set of circumstances that caused this result.

The body was not only in an enclosed space, but was also further encased in plastic bags and subjected to the intensified heat within the trunk of a white car during a Florida summer. Chloroform apparently occurs very early in decomposition and is detected primarily in deprived oxygen conditions.

The comparison with 'typical' chloroform levels in adult decomp.studies does not indicate if the decomp.in those cases occurred under the same conditions or if the ADD periods were even the same, so IMO that comparison tells us nothing.

The other child's body used as a control was apparently wrapped only in a blanket, not encased in trash bags/a plastic lined laundry hamper, there is no mention of whether the trunk was opened/aired at any time or if the body was ever taken out/replaced during the 3 months before it was discovered. Is it possible that the levels of chloroform initially present in the trunk for the control body had dissipated/evaporated or otherwise altered in some other way during that 3 month period that affected the comparative test results?

There is also still the possibility that the high levels were caused by the action/reaction of products containing chloroform AND still the possibility that Caylee's body/clothes had contact with chlorinated water from a recently shocked (IIRC) pool before being wrapped and enclosed in the trunk.

Thank you

 

[Jolynna]

Kobe is back...

Forensics expert Dr. Larry Kobilinski is advising Casey Anthony's defense team. He questioned much of what was included in the autopsy report.

"That is really not clear cut, I must say. It is not clear how the child died and if you don’t know how the child died, you really can't know it was a homicide," Kobilinski said.

Kobilinski noted that it only takes two weeks for a body to skeletonize in a Florida swamp, and he questioned the medical examiners conclusions about when the body was put in the woods.

"I think that there are experts that might disagree with that. There is a question about when the body was placed there," Kobilinski said.

http://www.clickorlando.com/news/19795725/detail.html

Kobe's own words put Caylee on Suburban within two weeks of her death.

Caylee was not yet a skeleton when she was placed at Suburban. Flesh was still holding sections of her together. The report said the experts know this because animals dragged Caylee's parts off in sections. Bones found away from the primary site were found with bones that would have come from the same section only IF there was still flesh to hold that part of Caylee's body together.

 

[brownflower]

After the big temper tantrum/fight w/ CA, KC left there in a rage dragging poor Caylee along. Perhaps Caylee started crying about not being able to stay w/ Grandparents, that they were fighting, Caylee was scared & upset, KC was flipping out... KC gets furious w/ Caylee & frustrated that she is now "stuck" w/ Caylee when she's supposed to be seeing her man that night. She is trying to shush Caylee & she notices the duct tape in the car (didn't she borrow that from a friend or something?). She duct tapes Caylee's mouth area & puts her in the trunk. She drives to lover boy's & spends the night. Caylee passes away in the trunk. :frown: She leaves her there for a few days. I need to look at the timeline to be sure of all this though. She was driving around in lover boys Jeep for a while wasn't she? Then she had to do something with Caylees body. The smell wouldn't go away. She tried several different chemicals to get rid of it to no avail (causing the chloroform). Then she dumped the car at the Amscot. I do believe the original plan was to chloroform CA & GA then break their necks hence giving her the house. That's where the computer searches come in. The chloroform in the car was an unplanned effect of the chemicals & decomp. Again, just my theory & I need to actually look at a timeline.

I like your theory. I just want to add that perhaps she was planning to kill Caylee too. The fight just made her do it sooner.

 

[NocturnalLady]

I hear you, NL. And up until today, I have been with you.

I have to this point been cautious about the chloroform levels in the trunk because no reports indicated what the levels were nor did they put them in perspective. Today's report did just that, and I agree that the levels were in fact outrageously high.

I've also been a proponent of the chloroform searches being more or less innocent and inspired by Ricardo's myspace picture upload. While I still believe the latter, I am not sure about the former. After all, the searches began with chloroform, and then went down a darker trail.

I am not set in stone about my theory of the chloroform - just think it is the most likely - the only way to make it fit. I just can't credit Casey with much forward planning. I feel like if she were experimenting with chloroform we would have some other evidence.

Don't you find it strange that there was so much chloroform with Caylee's sample and none at all (if I remember right) from the other sample child? It's almost like there's too much in Caylee's sample. Too much for it to be explained away by the drugging Caylee explanation. Especially if it was on a soaked rag/blanket. That level of chloroform would more likely be from the carpet itself getting soaked. The blanket or rag with the chloroform would have been removed when Caylee was dumped - a soaked carpet could not be removed.

The duct tape was over the mouth and nose according to the report. If that's true then the intention was to kill Caylee - not just drug her. How could Casey have killed Caylee with chloroform if both airways were blocked? What use would the chloroform be? I don't think for a second that Casey was drugging Caylee so that she could kill her painlessly. If the drugging was to keep her quiet - wouldn't duct tape over the mouth do that already?

Also I don't think Casey pre-meditated to kill Caylee on that day. She had probably fantasized about it plenty but not planned it out specifically. So when she decided to kill Caylee she would probably have had to look up the specific instructions for making chloroform again. I seriously doubt she could remember the details from the earlier searches. We don't have any evidence that she looked that up on the likely murder day. We also have no evidence of Casey making and then storing chloroform.

Just throwing some of my questions out there - if you don't ascribe to my theory then how do these things fit in? Just playing devil's advocate.

The chloroform has always been the one thing that has never fit right for me. Maybe in the future we will get more test results that will lead to that eureka! moment...

(Also - I really don't want to have to type the word chloroform again. I always have to think how to spell it - every time!)

 

[rbrnmw2]

:furious: the only thing I can say is EVIL INCARNATE

 

[NocturnalLady]

:seeya:

I agree.

I did read several posts yesterday debating whether Caylee's shorts were on or off - posted by members educated in animal behaviors as they apply to forensics. That is where my confusion lies. I'd love to have some degree of certainty that Caylee was fully clothed.

I feel that you & Bond may be able to help us sort this out in language us plain folk can understand. :wink:

I'll bring back links to the relevant posts in just a moment.

ETA: Thread must have been moved. I can't locate any of the posts now.

In short, there was speculation that the shorts were not on Caylee's body. I believe they were, but do not have the scientific abilities to support that.

My posts got deleted.

 

[brownflower]

Kobe is back...

Forensics expert Dr. Larry Kobilinski is advising Casey Anthony's defense team. He questioned much of what was included in the autopsy report.

"That is really not clear cut, I must say. It is not clear how the child died and if you don’t know how the child died, you really can't know it was a homicide," Kobilinski said.

Kobilinski noted that it only takes two weeks for a body to skeletonize in a Florida swamp, and he questioned the medical examiners conclusions about when the body was put in the woods.

"I think that there are experts that might disagree with that. There is a question about when the body was placed there," Kobilinski said.

http://www.clickorlando.com/news/19795725/detail.html

Forensic experts are not going to matter as to figuring out when Caylee's body was placed there. Casey's actions will determine that. She made the timeline.

The reports establish that a dead body was in Casey's car trunk. Casey dumped the car at Amscot. The day she dumped the car at Amscot the body was no longer in the car. So, some time between the last day that we have proof that Caylee was alive June 15 and the day that Casey dumped the car at Amscot. (I can't remember when). Is when the body was dumped.

End of discussion.

 

[ThoughtElf]

My posts got deleted.

Mine, too. And AE's.

I think we must have been O/T on the thread. Dang shame, because there was some great discussion there about the shorts.

Ah well, I will wait patiently for you to recreate the greatness that was your post. :crazy:

 

[scandi]

Exactly what I was thinking as I was reading this FBI report, as the report also stated that the levels of chloroform were too high for commercial cleaning products. I was thinking to myself "dude, she did actually homemake this stuff." WOW! Proves to me that poor Caylee was chloroformed and then strongly duct taped (obviously as the duct tape survived and held the maxilla together for 6 months, and made it through a hurricane and water submersion). I truly hope KC gets the death penalty.

Hi Debbie, I think that is because the duct tape was several layers thick.

In fact when we first learned about the duct tape we read it had taken the form, like a mold of the mouth area where it was still attached. Now I think the several layers of tape explains how that could happen.

 

[NocturnalLady]

Mine, too. And AE's.

I think we must have been O/T on the thread. Dang shame, because there was some great discussion there about the shorts.

Ah well, I will wait patiently for you to recreate the greatness that was your post. :crazy:

Oh no. I fear you may wait a long time if you are waiting for greatness. :blushing:

 

[tweety933]

adipocere only occurs in decomp. The fact that it was on paper towels mean that the paper towels came in contact with a dead body.
Period.

This would seal Casey's fate in my opinion!

 

[Marina2]

Yes it did say that.

Do we know if the quantity of material was ever determined to be just one shirt and just one pair of shorts? I think Casey could have just dumped all of Caylee's things that she had in the car at the time. So there could be shirt remains in the bag as well as scattered around if there was more than one shirt.

Well, I skimmed through again and found no mention of material of any kind on these bones only the r. scapula and the r. humerus (shoulder blade and arm) and these were found with the bags. I think it's the shirt.

I have to go to work now but I can't wait to get back and see what all of you have figured out.

 

[ClockWatcher]

Mine, too. And AE's.

I think we must have been O/T on the thread. Dang shame, because there was some great discussion there about the shorts.

Ah well, I will wait patiently for you to recreate the greatness that was your post. :crazy:

Guilty too, by association! :blowkiss:
(and from way early this morning on another thread; Veruca Salt: "Daddy, I want a Golden Goose!" bad egg, or the remake, "Daddy! I want a squirrel!" bad nut)

 

[ThoughtElf]

I'll start a new thread for us to stay on Topic.

Okay - new thread for the location & decomposition of Caylee's clothes & pull-up:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3889621&posted=1#post3889621

 

[x_files]

I'll venture a little OT with you...

I've wondered why the blanket with Caylee but nothing else...momma, nothing.

Could be she soaked a part of the WTP blanket with chloroform and gave it to Caylee while she was napping or before putting her down for a "nap". Once she ensured Caylee was out, she covered her mouth and nose with duct tape to do the actual killing. Took all of 4 or 5 minutes, at most. :cry: Then she put the body and blanket into the bags. The soaked portion of the blanket could have eaten away at the plastic bags it came in contact with, as well as the plastic liner of the laundry bag.

Actually makes sense to me, having her in the laundry bag from the beginning. As far as we know she did not back into the garage on the 16th, so she had to get the body into the trunk without fear of being noticed. Putting a laundry bag in the trunk would not look unusual. :shakehead:

This is my theory also. Either the blanket soaked with chloroform or a rag tht she used and removed.
I just do not know if she intended to kill her or was so delusional that she thought it would only knock her out while she partied with her boyfriend.
Was Casey ever tested for hard drugs? She acts like she was on meth. Would explain her bizarre behavior and possibly detoxing while in jail.

I hope the truth comes out soon and there is justice for Caylee finally.

 

[magic-cat]

adipocere only occurs in decomp. The fact that it was on paper towels mean that the paper towels came in contact with a dead body.
Period.

Not necessarily. They could have only come into contact with the decomposition that was a by product of the dead body and never actually touched the body at all.

I'm thinking maybe she poured chlorine (obviously from the pool supplies at the A home.) on the stain in the trunk AND then acetone (Kc or Ca could have had some of this in a bathroom cabinet as it is common for womern to have on hand for removing fingernail polish) or vise versa. She might have been just trying anyting to diminish the strong smell/ stain?

Or maybe someone ELSE did this before the calls to the police and before the car was taken into custody. SOMEONE certainly did clean the car-with what is any mans guess.:waitasec:

Hi PH, :wave:

I believe Caylee was clothed. In all, LE found lettering scattered throughout the crime scene that said "Big Trouble Comes In Small Packages". IMHO this lettering was originally on Caylee's shirt, and the material of the shirt had largely rotted away by the time the body was found.

Well, the collar of the shirt was found ripped and in tact-not rotted away whatsoever, and since the letters were the iron on variety they would have come off after a period of being left soaking in the water and the remainder of the shirt could have been torn and tattered by scavengers going after her bit by bit, and it finally came apart in pieces and floated away. I think the actual letters were found IN the bag-correct?

The quote I saw earlier said that the duct tape was not wrapped around her head. Which appears to be true, but it is a technicality at best. "she did not wrap the tape around the child's head, that is ridiculous, she layered several pieces over her mouth and nose and then placed a heart sticker on it"... that is quite the defense.

It may not have been wrapped around her entire head, but it was wrapped far enough around to have caught in her hair and to have held there after all that time. It was around far enough to do what it was intended to do.:furious:

If Caylee had been wearing the shirt, the shirt would have been dragged away with the torso/spinal column and found with the thoracic vertebrae not in the bag. I think the shirt was in the bag, not on the body. Same thing with the shorts. The dispersal reports show that the femurs and pelvis were dragged away while still attached to each other. If the shorts were on the body, they would have been found with the femurs and pelvis instead of in the bag. The flesh would have decomposed away long before the clothing would have rotted off.

Why KC disrobed Caylee is anyone's guess.

It is highly possible that the animals tore off the clothes as they were tearing off her body parts. It is not inconceivable to think that as they tore her little body apart, her pelvis and her legs that the shorts just slipped right off. Remember that the body blows up and then leaks out all the fluids and so a weight loss would occur during the late stages of decomp-she would no longer have been a nice, plump, cute, healthy little girl, she would have been something else entirely and it is not hard to imagine the clothing coming off easily considering these facts. I do not feel that Casey undressed Caylee. I fell that the animals and the elements did.:furious::furious::behindbar

 

[butwhatif?]

If Caylee had been wearing the shirt, the shirt would have been dragged away with the torso/spinal column and found with the thoracic vertebrae not in the bag. I think the shirt was in the bag, not on the body. Same thing with the shorts. The dispersal reports show that the femurs and pelvis were dragged away while still attached to each other. If the shorts were on the body, they would have been found with the femurs and pelvis instead of in the bag. The flesh would have decomposed away long before the clothing would have rotted off.

Why KC disrobed Caylee is anyone's guess.

If we go with the theory that the tape was placed there by KC to make it look like a kidnapping,then she could have removed caylee's clothes and staged it to look like a sex crime?

A simple explanation though is that caylee and KC were at home on the 16th, it was hot, and since caylee was potty training she was running around the house in just a pull-up when she met with an accident or was deliberately killed by her mom.
Just thinking out loud here.....