Premeditation

[JBean]

Not sure. Haven't seen all the evidence, yet.

LOL! That's what's what I have been trying to say. :blowkiss:

 

[Bittiness39]

Has Dr. G released an opinion on the cause of death? In the Huck case the ME testified to either downing or asphyxiation by tape as being the reasonable assumption for cause of death.
I understand that Dr. G has not put a cause of death in her findings using medical certainty, but I am asking if she rendered an opinion that we know of?

Nothing has changed. Homicide by undetermined means. That was her official finding. Though I do have a particular bee in my bonet...a big bee...huge that I can't float until I have confirmation. And it is a doozy. KC is going down in flames. And it would explain her obvious distress as she was video taped when unidentified remains of a toddler were found. Flames, ya'll.

 

[JBean]

ITA. I haven't seen anything that definitively says premeditation...YET. and I stress the word YET...miss Jelly Bean. Also you are an awesome mod.

Thanks LB35. I too am not convinced on the premed charge and that is the question.
She is charged with premeditated murder. Can the SA prove that and so she will be found guilty? or should the SA have charged her with something else? felony murder perhaps?

 

[JBean]

Nothing has changed. Homicide by undetermined means. That was her official finding. Though I do have a particular bee in my bonet...a big bee...huge that I can't float until I have confirmation. And it is a doozy. KC is going down in flames. And it would explain her obvious distress as she was video taped when unidentified remains of a toddler were found. Flames, ya'll.

Thanks, i didn;t know if she rendered an opinion but it was not part of her report as a medical certainty.
If the tape is so damning I wonder why she wouldn't assess that as the likely or reasonable cause of death?
Perhaps she renders an opinion not until trial? Does anyone know?

 

[Brini]

Brini
Thank you. I am so uneducated and wish I knew how to get my point across like you and so many others here on WS. I give up but will be reading what all of you great people have to say.

Well, we're happy to have you, whether you prefer to lurk, or to jump in.

But.. it would be fun, if you'd jump in, when you felt like it! Always happy to have some new voices.

WELCOME!

XXXXXXXXOOOOOOOO

 

[Wudge]

Snipped respectfully. I disagree with you on the demonization. Her own grandmother thinks she belongs in general population. Her uncle believes her guilty. Not one of her friends will agree to be a character witness. This would include people she has known since she was 5. I like and respect your opinions...but I would love to see you attack the defense with the same zeal you do the prosecution. Quid pro quo...ya know? :blushing:

I'll let Casey's defense team have at it before I critique them. They need to satisfy their clients defense wishes (SODDI?) but they also need to strongly attack premeditation. I've been on the lack of proof to support murder one from the earliest days of this case. The heart sticker, the lack of duct tape being wrapped around the skull, Caylee's hands not being bound and now multiple and very short strips of duct tape et al. Add in the fact that driving around with a body in the trunk of your car for days -- as the State alleges -- certainly works against a planned and deliberated murder, and presto, reasonable doubt in spades.

Then we have the meter reader and his absurd story; he's a death spiral waiting to go down in flames on the witness stand.

The material is there to put on a stellar Broadway performance and the defense crosses should be truly brutal -- I admit to enjoying scortched-earth, cross-examinations by a defense attorney, call it a weakness.

(chuckle)

 

[Brini]

Thanks, i didn;t know if she rendered an opinion but it was not part of her report as a medical certainty.
If the tape is so damning I wonder why she wouldn't assess that as the cause of death?
Perhaps she renders an opinion not until trial? Does anyone know?

She can't diagnose suffocation from just bones. So, she can't opine in a report, either way. That's why there is no specific COD.

But, I think some months ago we read that she wrote an informal separate paper re: what she thought happened. If so, it has not been released.

Don't know whether she will opine in court, or just stick to what she can prove.

Here's the question: How did she come up with "homicide" as the COD, when there was no bone pathology? She must have seen or deduced something that brought her to that conclusion. I hope it comes out in court!

However, the tape is damning, because of the Huck precident.

 

[JBean]

She can't diagnose suffocation from just bones. So, she can't opine in a report, either way.

But, I think some months ago we read that she wrote an informal separate paper re: what she thought happened. If so, it has not been released.

Don't know whether she will opine in court, or just stick to what she can prove.

Here's the question: How did she come up with "homicide" as the COD, when there was no bone pathology? She must have seen or deduced something that brought her to that conclusion.

don't forget homicide is not murder.( all murders are homicides but not all homicides are murder) She only had to deduce that Caylee died at the hands of another.
The informal report..that is what I am asking about,. thank you, I wondered if there had been one.
as I say in the Huck case that everyone likes to refer to, the ME testified to his opinion even though he could not say with medical certainty. he said the victim died of either drowning or tape asphyxiation. So, even though she was taped, it was not necessrily the cause of death in that instance.

 

[Jolynna]

Not sure. Haven't seen all the evidence, yet.

But, I'm thinking they can prove it. 1) Because of what we HAVE seen, plus, 2) Because the state felt confident of filing charges BEFORE the remains were found, and 3) Because the FBI doesn't like to stick around, if the case isn't close to a slam-dunk.

She was charged wth 1st degree murder before they found Caylee's body.

I'm more concerned about how the state is going to prove the cruel aggravating child abuse than I am how they are going to prove premeditation.

Searches on a computer were enough to establish premeditation for Justin Barber, also from Florida. He was sentenced to death.

Barber's 1st degree murder conviction was affirmed on appeal. But, the court ruled that the state did not prove the cruel circumstances of Barber's wife's death (that the wife died painfully). So he is serving life.

http://docs.google.com/gview?a=v&q=cache:urntz5yAsM8J:caselaw.findlaw.com/data2/floridastatecases/app/app5_1_2009/5D06-3529.pdf+%22Barber+v+state%22+Florida+appeal&hl=en&gl=us&sig=AFQjCNGaqExopC3-OZFXkxiY-Zf04024qA

 

[wonders]

LE thinks the date of death was 6/16.

Now that there is a new witness, the time would be placed between about 4 PM, and early evening. I don't remember exactly the time that KC and TonE went to rent videos. But, Caylee was not with them, and TonE did not see Caylee that night.

I don't see a charge of manslaughter filed. And, given the amount and quality of forensic and behavioral evidence after the baby's death, I don't see a jury going for it. Especially if KC still insists an unnamed SODDI. Certainly, KC won't plead manslaughter, or even accident. At least, she has been unwilling to do to this point. Again, her choice.

I don't know what evidence led the state to file murder charges BEFORE the body was found. My guess is that it's pretty significant. And, again, The FBI doesn't generally remain involved in cases that they are not likely to win.

My guess is that the entomologist's report will be very critical.

IMVHO, the state will have an easy time proving its case beyond a reasonable doubt.

I don't think that behaviors prior to the baby's death are important. The fact that the baby died unnaturally in KC's care is indisputable.

However, some people take the computer searches for chloroform, before the death, and for ways to kill as intent. I really don't-- I search a lot of weird stuff, myself.

Thanks, hon!

:woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo:

 

[Brini]

don't forget homicide is not murder. She only had to deduce that Caylee died at the hands of another.
The informal report..that is what I am asking about,. thank you, I wondered if there had been one.
as I say in the Huck case that everyone likes to refer to, the mE testified to his opion even though he could not say with medical certainty. he said the victim died of either drowning or tape asphyxiation. So, even though she was taped, it was not necessrily the cause of death in that instance.

Yep! And we don't know for sure that the tape was the COD, in this instance, either.

But, the jury is going to need an explanation for the tape. The defense had better give them one they can accept.

Since the coroner really had almost nothing to work with, I think it was the other forensic and the behavioral that led the state to file murder charges. So, there may be additional evidence that we haven't seen. And, what we have seen is damning-- I won't go into it for fear of staring an OT. ;-)

 

[MissJames]

Zackly. Thanks for coming back to topic.
So do we see enough evidence for premeditated murder? some say yes and some say no. That is what she is charged with, can they prove the premeditation?

If it becomes clear at trial that the tape was placed over Caylee's mouth and nose,then yes.Definitely premeditation as it takes moments to rip off the tape and apply it over the nose and mouth.There would be minutes before Caylee actually dies [I know from the coronors report when my son hung himself] and during that time she could have removed the tape if she didn't want Caylee to die.
We have to wait for the trial and see what Dr. G and the other experts say.
Since they were unable to test for current drugging and poisoning Dr. G could not rule that out as a cause of death IMO,so she left the COD open.It's possible Caylee was drugged or poisoned and then the tape placed,so which killed her first?It would be speculation.Either way,not an accident and someone is responsible.
Back to Wudge considering pool water....again,that is calling for speculation and you,yourself said speculating[I me be paraphrasing that word] Can not be considered evidence.
So we wait for everything the SA has and anything the defense cares to add,then we will be able to draw a reasonable conclusion.JMO

 

[Bittiness39]

I'll let Casey's defense team have at it before I critique them. They need to satisfy their clients defense wishes (SODDI?) but they also need to strongly attack premeditation. I've been on the lack of proof to support murder one from the earliest days of this case. The heart sticker, the lack of duct tape being wrapped around the skull, Caylee's hands not being bound and now multiple and very short strips of duct tape et al. Add in the fact that driving around with a body in the trunk of your car for days -- as the State alleges -- certainly works against a planned and deliberated murder, and presto, reasonable doubt in spades.

Then we have the meter reader and his absurd story; he's a death spiral waiting to go down in flames on the witness stand.

The material is there to put on a stellar Broadway performance and the defense crosses should be truly brutal -- I admit to enjoying scortched-earth, cross-examinations by a defense attorney, call it a weakness.

(chuckle)

I especially like the scorched earth theory when it applies to defense throwing innocent victims under the bus. Which this team has and will continue to do. If there are ethics to abide by...why bother if you are a prosecutor when the defense can simply say a random phantom nanny did it...when no such nanny exists nor will ever be proven to exist. KC's check fraud conviction should convince her to stray from her ridiculous notions of a mistrial. She'll be in jail for a while. Which is where someone who has not contributed anything other than grief to the human experience belongs.

BTW, you are cool.

 

[The Eunice Burns]

My opinion........Pre-med. The tape is the factor. IMO, it was not used to staunch the leakage of any fluids---decomp or pool water. I think it was the weapon. As much as it horrifies me to think of what that means......that is what I think happened. JMO

 

[Brini]

My opinion........Pre-med. The tape is the factor. IMO, it was not used to staunch the leakage of any fluids---decomp or pool water. I think it was the weapon. As much as it horrifies me to think of what that means......that is what I think happened. JMO

And, that's JUST what the jury's gonna think, if the defense doesn't come up with some good reasoning.

 

[Jolynna]

don't forget homicide is not murder.( all murders are homicides but not all homicides are murder) She only had to deduce that Caylee died at the hands of another.
The informal report..that is what I am asking about,. thank you, I wondered if there had been one.
as I say in the Huck case that everyone likes to refer to, the ME testified to his opinion even though he could not say with medical certainty. he said the victim died of either drowning or tape asphyxiation. So, even though she was taped, it was not necessrily the cause of death in that instance.

Which why I am wondering what the state has to prove the cruel child abuse aggravating circumstances of Caylee's death. That's why they said the death penalty went back on the table.

Justin Barber's sentence was changed to life without parole (from death) because the higher court said the state didn't prove Barber's wife died painfully.

 

[MissJames]

don't forget homicide is not murder.( all murders are homicides but not all homicides are murder) She only had to deduce that Caylee died at the hands of another.
The informal report..that is what I am asking about,. thank you, I wondered if there had been one.
as I say in the Huck case that everyone likes to refer to, the ME testified to his opinion even though he could not say with medical certainty. he said the victim died of either drowning or tape asphyxiation. So, even though she was taped, it was not necessrily the cause of death in that instance.

If the victim was taped and bound [with tape?] ,then placed in water,she would be unable to swim and save herself from drowning ,therefore the tape is actually an instrument causing the death as much as a gun is an instrument that delivers the deadly bullet.JMO

 

[JBean]

Yep! And we don't know for sure that the tape was the COD, in this instance, either.

But, the jury is going to need an explanation for the tape. The defense had better give them one they can accept.

Since the coroner really had almost nothing to work with, I think it was the other forensic and the behavioral that led the state to file murder charges. So, there may be additional evidence that we haven't seen. And, what we have seen is damning-- I won't go into it for fear of staring an OT. ;-)

I think they filed murder charges before the coroner was even involved didn't they?

 

[Brini]

She was charged wth 1st degree murder before they found Caylee's body.

You're right! (As always!)

Where is my timing? I prolly left it with my last two neurons.

 

[The Eunice Burns]

And, that's JUST what the jury's gonna think, if the defense doesn't come up with some good reasoning.

And......the jury will have to see the photos of Caylee's taped up remains. We are just talking about it, they will have to see it. And that will tell the terrible tale.