GUILTY OH - Sarah Widmer, 24, drowned in bathtub, Hamilton Township, 11 Aug 2008

I was wondering if anyone can find the full transcript of the 911 call, not just the audio. It is somewhat difficult to hear.

I agree with 2goldfish that the first thing an innocent person would do is take the person out of the water. Why would the tub need to be drained if the person is not in the tub.

He of course mentions that Sarah is dead. This again is not normal under the circumstances. An innocent person, does not accept a loved one has died. They deny it, they do not want to face reality.

But a guilty person has no problem furnishing the fact that their loved one is dead.

Also he mentioned to other people that he found his wife face down, then he tells other that she was face up.

Then he says she is dead, then unconscious.

I would tell 911 to break down the door if they have to, I am not going to stop CPR, the cost of a new door is nothing compared to attempting to save the life of my loved one.

The first jury found him guilty, and I have no doubt that the second jury will also.

That 911 call is very informative.....for the purpose of the DA.

I've been searching for the full transcript too - I'll keep looking, but for now the best I can do is the family/supporters version of the transcript. Its about halfway down the page, under the MS snapshots. (lol@ them trying to dig up dirt on the dispatcher).

http://www.freeryanwidmer.com/index.php/911-call-listen
 
Just after I made the flippant comment about the family trying to dig up dirt on the 911 dispatcher I found this new report- :blushing:

911 Call From Ryan Widmer Was Mishandled

Now, a new report by a dispatch center manager finds the operator mishandled Ryan Widmer's 911 call on the night of Sarah's death. The report says it sounded like the operator came out of a sound sleep, leaving long pauses between sentences and asking the same question two or three times.

The report also mentions the dispatcher did not give CPR instructions to Widmer, even though Widmer admitted he knew very little about the procedure.

Several fellow dispatchers also claim they saw the operator who handled the Widmer call asleep just before the call came in.

http://www.local12.com/news/local/s...er-Was-Mishandled/N4t0dn4DkU-U_ta3gvO_Mg.cspx
 
I was wondering if anyone can find the full transcript of the 911 call, not just the audio. It is somewhat difficult to hear.

I agree with 2goldfish that the first thing an innocent person would do is take the person out of the water. Why would the tub need to be drained if the person is not in the tub.

He of course mentions that Sarah is dead. This again is not normal under the circumstances. An innocent person, does not accept a loved one has died. They deny it, they do not want to face reality.

But a guilty person has no problem furnishing the fact that their loved one is dead.

Also he mentioned to other people that he found his wife face down, then he tells other that she was face up.

Then he says she is dead, then unconscious.

I would tell 911 to break down the door if they have to, I am not going to stop CPR, the cost of a new door is nothing compared to attempting to save the life of my loved one.

The first jury found him guilty, and I have no doubt that the second jury will also.

That 911 call is very informative.....for the purpose of the DA.

His "reaction" (to finding out she was gone) at the ER sounds really over-the-top and melodramatic. Wailing and sobbing on his knees into the seat of a chair? Too much like every other guy who kills his wife, trying to look as if he feels bad about it. (Except maybe Scott Peterson and a few others).
 
For me? Wet hair, dry body, no water on floor or sign of water clean up, and no mention of his being wet from lifting her from the tub. If she drowned face down in a tub of water, there certainly would be something wet from her body. Sorry but it doesn't evaporate that quickly.

Don't need no stinkin' motive, that is not a requirement, never has been. Motive is not necessary for a conviction, just a bonus if found out. They'd laugh you right out of the jury room if you're holding out for motive.

I'd like more info, but from what I know so far, my hinky meter's on high alert.
 
Same old, same old of a guilty person's script.

Blame the victim
Blame the cops
Blame the 911 operator
Blame whomever else......

But d not accept any responsibility for your own actions.

If I am correct, did Ryan not "claim" that hegave his wife CPR in the tub. That is what I got from the transcript......

This was odd from the start, rightly so. LE was correct in their determination that the crime scene did not fit with the story.

Funny how many criminals are charged and convicted on that basis. They give an "innocent" story and when compaired against the physical evidence, the evidence is telling the truth without any motive to lie or cover up a crime.......

I feel Ryan again will go to prison after a re-trial and then of course his supporters will take to the public with a camapaign that an "innocent" man has gone to prison, that the system is wrong, the evidence is wrong, the judge is wrong, the jury is wrong, and Ryan was railroaded.

Same old story.......
 
It seems I may be in the minority here, but I believe he's innocent. At least from what I've seen and heard so far.

Upon reading the original article linked in the first post, I didn't feel they had enough evidence to convict. I had 'reasonable doubt.' I've known people who had elusive medical conditions that were undetected, even after several visits to the doctor and tests on everything. One person I know had an intermittant heart condition and by the time he'd get to the doctors, they couldn't tell him why he had become suddenly ill, passing out, and by then ok. It was only after one time he just happened to be in the doctor's office when an 'episode' occurred and a heart ailment was detected. He was only about 27.

Sarah's mentioning to co-workers and friends that day, that she didn't feel well, upset stomach, headache,..............her falling asleep at the drop of a hat. I believe she had an undetected medical condition(s). Along with the narcolepsy, she may have had a heart condition, ie it slowed down or sped up. The heart can be unpredictible, at times appearing normal and unsuspectingly speed-up or slow-down.

When I read about the swinger sites revealed after the trial, I thought maybe he was guilty. That COULD be a valid motive. But then I read his 911 call and listened to the actual call. He didn't act out of charactor to me. I know it's a cliche to say 'everyone acts differently' when something like this happens, but it's really true.

911 call
He sounded out of control in the call but attempting to remain calm, thus the hyperventilating-type breathing. He said he'd tried cpr (what little he knew) and that he'd let the water out of the tub..... This tells me, he came upon her 'face down,' he may have moved the upper portion of her body back so she was face-up or leaning against the back of the tub and while the water was draining attempted cpr, there IN the tub. Thus, a longer time for her body to have dried off and the tub appearing dry. When he removed her from the tub, it wasn't from a bath full of water, it was already drained, so she most likely was NOT 'dripping wet.'

When I read the transcript, I thought, why didn't you remove her from the tub before calling 911? But when I listened to the actual call, I came away with the above scenario in my mind.

When you listen to the call as he's away from the phone moving her body out of the tub, you hear him talking to her. Then when he's giving her further cpr as instructed, he's again commenting to her, 'come on baby.' Because they worked on her for forty-five minutes before taking her away and were most likely still working on her as they drove away, she apparently hadn't been dead for too long as they felt their life-saving efforts may revive her. As her husband, he most likely went to the hospital expecting her to be awake by the time he arrived. He broke down at the hospital because he found out she did NOT make it and was gone. A completely normal reaction, imho.

As for her drowning and the question of the narcolepsy???? IF she'd fallen asleep in the tub previously, it apparently was a joke among family and friends and as she'd never drowned before, why would anyone think she would this time?

As for her maybe waking up when she began breathing in water????? According to this article, people suffering from narcolepsy can have difficulty when "Waking up unable to move or talk for a brief time" Either this, or an undetected heart condition could be why she drowned.

JMHO
fran


PS.......some people with narcolepsy are forbidden to drive.


http://www.scuba-doc.com/narcodiv.htm
Diving with Narcolepsy
 
It seems I may be in the minority here, but I believe he's innocent. At least from what I've seen and heard so far.

Upon reading the original article linked in the first post, I didn't feel they had enough evidence to convict. I had 'reasonable doubt.' I've known people who had elusive medical conditions that were undetected, even after several visits to the doctor and tests on everything. One person I know had an intermittant heart condition and by the time he'd get to the doctors, they couldn't tell him why he had become suddenly ill, passing out, and by then ok. It was only after one time he just happened to be in the doctor's office when an 'episode' occurred and a heart ailment was detected. He was only about 27.

Sarah's mentioning to co-workers and friends that day, that she didn't feel well, upset stomach, headache,..............her falling asleep at the drop of a hat. I believe she had an undetected medical condition(s). Along with the narcolepsy, she may have had a heart condition, ie it slowed down or sped up. The heart can be unpredictible, at times appearing normal and unsuspectingly speed-up or slow-down.

When I read about the swinger sites revealed after the trial, I thought maybe he was guilty. That COULD be a valid motive. But then I read his 911 call and listened to the actual call. He didn't act out of charactor to me. I know it's a cliche to say 'everyone acts differently' when something like this happens, but it's really true.

911 call
He sounded out of control in the call but attempting to remain calm, thus the hyperventilating-type breathing. He said he'd tried cpr (what little he knew) and that he'd let the water out of the tub..... This tells me, he came upon her 'face down,' he may have moved the upper portion of her body back so she was face-up or leaning against the back of the tub and while the water was draining attempted cpr, there IN the tub. Thus, a longer time for her body to have dried off and the tub appearing dry. When he removed her from the tub, it wasn't from a bath full of water, it was already drained, so she most likely was NOT 'dripping wet.'

When I read the transcript, I thought, why didn't you remove her from the tub before calling 911? But when I listened to the actual call, I came away with the above scenario in my mind.

When you listen to the call as he's away from the phone moving her body out of the tub, you hear him talking to her. Then when he's giving her further cpr as instructed, he's again commenting to her, 'come on baby.' Because they worked on her for forty-five minutes before taking her away and were most likely still working on her as they drove away, she apparently hadn't been dead for too long as they felt their life-saving efforts may revive her. As her husband, he most likely went to the hospital expecting her to be awake by the time he arrived. He broke down at the hospital because he found out she did NOT make it and was gone. A completely normal reaction, imho.

As for her drowning and the question of the narcolepsy???? IF she'd fallen asleep in the tub previously, it apparently was a joke among family and friends and as she'd never drowned before, why would anyone think she would this time?

As for her maybe waking up when she began breathing in water????? According to this article, people suffering from narcolepsy can have difficulty when "Waking up unable to move or talk for a brief time" Either this, or an undetected heart condition could be why she drowned.

JMHO
fran


PS.......some people with narcolepsy are forbidden to drive.


http://www.scuba-doc.com/narcodiv.htm
Diving with Narcolepsy


I'm with ya fran... I think he's innocent too...
 
A jury did find Ryan guilty baed on the evidence. The only grounds for re-trial was "inappropriate conduct" by the jury.

The problem with "falling" asleep anywhere anytime, is that it does not happen and a person drowns.

If a person breathes water, unles they are impaired with drugs, injury or alcohol then the "automatic" system of your brain kicks in as a survival method.

www.wlwt.com

A sleep specialist said that no evidence suggested that Sarah Widmer suffered from a sleep disorder or any other health problem that might have contributed to her sudden death.

Even if Sarah Widmer had suffered from a sleep disorder, Dr. Aneesa Marie Das said she would have woken up once she’d slipped into the water and had her breathing interrupted.

Even if you are asleep and your breathing is interrupted, like in cases of sleep apnea, your body will wake you up.

It is a survival and defense......you re not getting oxygen, your body knows then and will wake you up to obtain oxygen.

So I fully respect your views and opinions, but again, I just don't see a person falling asleep in a tub and drowning.

Sarah Widmer's mother testified that her daughter loved to take baths and soak in the tub but did not recall her ever falling asleep while taking a bath.

Steward also testified that she was not aware of any medical issues involving her daughter.

The mothers testimony is directly opposite to what Ryan "claimed" that Sarah fell asleep in the tub all of the time.

If that was true, if we do believe it, then why was Ryan downstairs watching a football game, knowing that his wife "could easily fall asleep in the bath, as he claims she has often done before.

Also if she had fallen asleep in the tub before, I would think that she would have drowned the first time that this happened, if it did happen.

If she did so, then of course she would have asked Ryan to be by her side "just in case".

This does not add up, really it does not.

If Sarah, for example fell asleep in the tub before, then she woke up in time ot to drown, why was it this time if she fell asleep that she did drown.

I believe that the mother is correct that Sarah never fell asleep in the tub, but that Ryan put forth that "message" to deflect blame from himself.
 
Fascinating case. There are some odd things here but there is WAY too much reasonable doubt. I can't believe they convicted him the first time around. I tend to go with Fran's account of events. That seems most plausible to me.

I think he's innocent.
 
Several of their friends said she fell asleep anywhere. In a crowded room, at the dinner table, in her car in broad daylight during lunch, watching tv, and her husband said in the bath tub. Because there was more than one person saying this, I believe she had an un-diagnosed form of narcolepsy. I realize her mom didn't believe she had an un-diagnosed medical condition, but to me the evidence points other-wise.

From what I've seen, they had purchased that home just before they got married and she had an over-sized tub. She may very well have fallen asleep before and woken up, which was why her husband didn't find it necessary to sit there while she took her bath. However, that day she had complained to co-workers and a friend on the phone just before she died, that she had a headache and an upset stomach. Perhaps she had something else going wrong? Heart condition?

Narcolepsy cannot be detected after death, that I'm aware of. It can only be detected, I believe, in one of those 'sleep clinics,' or whatever. She would have had to be monitered. Although her friend had told her she should seek a medical diagnosis, she declined. This is a typical reaction by a young person. After all, she was young and for the most part, healthy. So she got sleepy? She wasn't that concerned about it.

As for the narcolepsy possibly causing her to drown, I know what the expert said, but I gave a link where it stated that when some people with narcolepsy begin waking up they may: "Waking up unable to move or talk for a brief time". What if her body reaction was to wake up when she first began breathing in water, but she was unable to move or talk, just long enough to have rendered her unconscious and then she drowned?

I understand that a jury did in fact find him guilty, but their decision was based on an assumption that they reached by doing their own unscientific scenario (research) which was against the judge's orders. He gave those orders for a reason and this was the result. A new trial and the guilty verdict set aside.

I also did not agree with the jury's verdict, even before I saw the justification for them reaching their decision. I've also given a scenario on the possibility as to why, by the time EMTs and LE arrived, the victim was no longer wet. She'd possibly been laying in a 'drained bath tub' and not taken out of the tub, soaking wet.

I have no problem with anyone thinking he's guilty, I just don't agree, imho. I guess that's why they have a jury of 12, because they would ALL have to agree to guilt or innocence together.
JMHO
fran
 
It seems I may be in the minority here, but I believe he's innocent. At least from what I've seen and heard so far.

Upon reading the original article linked in the first post, I didn't feel they had enough evidence to convict. I had 'reasonable doubt.' I've known people who had elusive medical conditions that were undetected, even after several visits to the doctor and tests on everything. One person I know had an intermittant heart condition and by the time he'd get to the doctors, they couldn't tell him why he had become suddenly ill, passing out, and by then ok. It was only after one time he just happened to be in the doctor's office when an 'episode' occurred and a heart ailment was detected. He was only about 27.

Sarah's mentioning to co-workers and friends that day, that she didn't feel well, upset stomach, headache,..............her falling asleep at the drop of a hat. I believe she had an undetected medical condition(s). Along with the narcolepsy, she may have had a heart condition, ie it slowed down or sped up. The heart can be unpredictible, at times appearing normal and unsuspectingly speed-up or slow-down.

When I read about the swinger sites revealed after the trial, I thought maybe he was guilty. That COULD be a valid motive. But then I read his 911 call and listened to the actual call. He didn't act out of charactor to me. I know it's a cliche to say 'everyone acts differently' when something like this happens, but it's really true.

911 call
He sounded out of control in the call but attempting to remain calm, thus the hyperventilating-type breathing. He said he'd tried cpr (what little he knew) and that he'd let the water out of the tub..... This tells me, he came upon her 'face down,' he may have moved the upper portion of her body back so she was face-up or leaning against the back of the tub and while the water was draining attempted cpr, there IN the tub. Thus, a longer time for her body to have dried off and the tub appearing dry. When he removed her from the tub, it wasn't from a bath full of water, it was already drained, so she most likely was NOT 'dripping wet.'

When I read the transcript, I thought, why didn't you remove her from the tub before calling 911? But when I listened to the actual call, I came away with the above scenario in my mind.

When you listen to the call as he's away from the phone moving her body out of the tub, you hear him talking to her. Then when he's giving her further cpr as instructed, he's again commenting to her, 'come on baby.' Because they worked on her for forty-five minutes before taking her away and were most likely still working on her as they drove away, she apparently hadn't been dead for too long as they felt their life-saving efforts may revive her. As her husband, he most likely went to the hospital expecting her to be awake by the time he arrived. He broke down at the hospital because he found out she did NOT make it and was gone. A completely normal reaction, imho.

As for her drowning and the question of the narcolepsy???? IF she'd fallen asleep in the tub previously, it apparently was a joke among family and friends and as she'd never drowned before, why would anyone think she would this time?

As for her maybe waking up when she began breathing in water????? According to this article, people suffering from narcolepsy can have difficulty when "Waking up unable to move or talk for a brief time" Either this, or an undetected heart condition could be why she drowned.

JMHO
fran


PS.......some people with narcolepsy are forbidden to drive.


http://www.scuba-doc.com/narcodiv.htm
Diving with Narcolepsy
Fran, you have pretty much articulated what I felt after seeing the 48 Hours show (or was it Dateline?), I also felt reasonable doubt though my husband thought I was nuts. The thing I don't remember hearing is if she had water in her lungs to indicate she did drown? I also liked how his mother came across in the interview, probably dumb to even mention that though.
 
Fran, you have pretty much articulated what I felt after seeing the 48 Hours show (or was it Dateline?), I also felt reasonable doubt though my husband thought I was nuts. The thing I don't remember hearing is if she had water in her lungs to indicate she did drown? I also liked how his mother came across in the interview, probably dumb to even mention that though.

I don't recall seeing that either Deborah, about water in the lungs. I'm assuming there probably was because the pros theory is that he 'held her head under water in a sink or the toilet,' something like that. Which, LOL, ok it's an assumption on my part, says she probably did have water in the lungs.

JMHO
fran
 
Several of their friends said she fell asleep anywhere. In a crowded room, at the dinner table, in her car in broad daylight during lunch, watching tv, and her husband said in the bath tub. Because there was more than one person saying this, I believe she had an un-diagnosed form of narcolepsy. I realize her mom didn't believe she had an un-diagnosed medical condition, but to me the evidence points other-wise.

From what I've seen, they had purchased that home just before they got married and she had an over-sized tub. She may very well have fallen asleep before and woken up, which was why her husband didn't find it necessary to sit there while she took her bath. However, that day she had complained to co-workers and a friend on the phone just before she died, that she had a headache and an upset stomach. Perhaps she had something else going wrong? Heart condition?

Narcolepsy cannot be detected after death, that I'm aware of. It can only be detected, I believe, in one of those 'sleep clinics,' or whatever. She would have had to be monitered. Although her friend had told her she should seek a medical diagnosis, she declined. This is a typical reaction by a young person. After all, she was young and for the most part, healthy. So she got sleepy? She wasn't that concerned about it.

As for the narcolepsy possibly causing her to drown, I know what the expert said, but I gave a link where it stated that when some people with narcolepsy begin waking up they may: "Waking up unable to move or talk for a brief time". What if her body reaction was to wake up when she first began breathing in water, but she was unable to move or talk, just long enough to have rendered her unconscious and then she drowned?

I understand that a jury did in fact find him guilty, but their decision was based on an assumption that they reached by doing their own unscientific scenario (research) which was against the judge's orders. He gave those orders for a reason and this was the result. A new trial and the guilty verdict set aside.

I also did not agree with the jury's verdict, even before I saw the justification for them reaching their decision. I've also given a scenario on the possibility as to why, by the time EMTs and LE arrived, the victim was no longer wet. She'd possibly been laying in a 'drained bath tub' and not taken out of the tub, soaking wet.

I have no problem with anyone thinking he's guilty, I just don't agree, imho. I guess that's why they have a jury of 12, because they would ALL have to agree to guilt or innocence together.
JMHO
fran

From what I read narcoplepsy usually begins when a person is in their 20's. So Mom may not have realized how often she was unexpectedly falling asleep. Girls that age often downplay or try to hide problems they may be having in an effort to keep the mother from "worrying." And I agree, I don't think that it can be picked up without a sleep clinic or CAT scans on a living brain.

It is a known neurological problem, well documented in medical literature.

You described it as difficulty moving or talking, but the link that I posted called it sleep paraylsis. So if she fell asleep and slipped under the water, she wouldn't have been able to sit up or otherwise get her head out of the water.

You mentioned a possible heart problem. There is a thing with hypotension, which is low blood pressure. It can cause you to faint. I found out when I was pregnant that hot water can cause hypotension. I couldn't take hot showers or baths while I was pregnant because of it. They said it was related to the vasovagal reaction.
http://www.medicinenet.com/low_blood_pressure/page3.htm
 
Falling asleep breathing air anywhere and falling asleep and breathing water until you drown, are two different things.

One your body has "normal" oxygen and will not go into panic mode because you are getting normal levels of oxygen.

The other, you body will not stay asleep(unless drugged)because you are NOT breathing air.

Now if anyone can show me a "friend" that can 100% verify that Sarah has fallen asleep in water and not drowned, then I would be interested.

You body will not allow you to breathe water while asleep. No if, and or buts about it.

There is no question about that.

Her head was held under water until she was "forced" to inhale water.

Look up the Bathtub girls, a case in Toronto to see the "circumstances" of their mother drowning. They almost got away with it....but were convicted.

Again, close your eyes, take a little(just a little water) up the nose and you tell me that you could sleep through that. Don't do it really, I would not want anyone to be hurt.

The body will go into"defense" mode to save "your life".
 
I do understand what everyone is saying about not being able to stay asleep if you go under water. And that is why I wanted to know if there was water in her lungs. What if she just fell asleep in the tub and had some sort of heart or brain incident that killed her and that had nothing to do with actually drowning?

Hearing her boss say she would go out and nap in her car at lunch made me realize that this was not something most people would do regularly unless they are constantly burning the candle at both ends. It just gives me reasonable doubt that something else was physically wrong with her and caused her death.
 
Of course there was water in her lungs, how else would she have drowned.

The point being, is how the water got into her lungs.

She never had a seizure, she had never fallen asleep in the water according to her Mom.

How many "other" people have died when they were forced to inhale water, not by their choice. All of them including Sarah.

There is no evidence that she fell asleep in the water, there is no evidence that she had any medical condition.

All that is known is that she drowned taking a bath. Come on.

BTW, I have a question. How would Ryan have known that "Sarah" had fallen asleep "many" times while taking a bath.

Really, 5 times, 10 times, it just does not make sense. Apparently Ryan "very much pestered Sarah about insurance with her new employer. A healthy 24 year old women.

www.daytondailynews.com

(snip)

Warren County Prosecutor Rachel Hutzel said in domestic violence situations, "you never know what goes on behind closed doors."


She said "very early on" investigators did not believe Ryan's version of his wife's death.


"He gave multiple stories," Hutzel said. The versions raised suspicions right away, Hutzel said.

Sarah Widmer's mother Ruth Ann Steward testified last week that her son-in-law had control issues where it came to money.

She said she would be out shopping with her daughter and when they got to the car, Widmer would be on the phone with Sarah Widmer demanding to know why she bought a particular item.

When asked how the husband could possibly know what the wife was buying, Steward said "I don't know, the Internet I guess."

I have another idea of how Ryan knew what Sarah was buying and why he was phoning her while she was shopping with her Mom.

If a man has control issues about money, then he has control issues.

I have no doubt that Ryan murdered his wife and the retrial will prove so.

Some men feel that Divorce is not an option, but murder is.
 
Respectfully snipped and bolded by me :) ~
He is guilty, I am convinced of that........

Also, the first thing that I would do if I found myself in this situation, is to take the person out of the water and immediately start CPR and then call 911 while I was trying to save the person's life. I don't have to be guided by a 911 dispatcher when a person was found "lying" face down in tub.

BTW, how does one fall asleep face down in the tub. Why would a person take a "relaxing bath" face down. This case does not make sense.

Ryan killed his wife.......by holding her head under water until she was dead, then fabricating the "death" scene.

Great work on the 911 call Cyber! I agree. I also agree that the first reaction of finding someone, in distress, in water would be to take them out of the water! That would be instinctive, in my opinion, unless you were at the ocean or a fast moving river and the rescuer could not swim.

And the "lying face down"? Who takes a bath lying face down? How would the body turn itself to be face down? I can't see that being physically possible - generally tubs are not that big, even the "big" ones. I would like to see a picture of that tub.

But... holding her head under water? Why didn't Ryan have scratches on his wrists or hands? Or did he? I think the story said there was not a mark on him. How could he hold her down, while she struggled for life, and not get a scratch? Did he knock her out first? Was she unconscious while he held her head - and is that why she had bruises on her head and neck?

Can't the pathologist tell if the bruises were made before or after life has left the body? I thought they could tell the difference?

The other thing I really want to know is if the sleeping problem was evident throughout Sarah's life or if it became noticable AFTER she met Ryan. As someone said - no one knows what goes on behind the doors of a marriage except the people behind the doors. Ryan could have been sleep depriving Sarah in a number of ways that kept her exhausted. Just a thought, but abuse is not always "physical."

And - still waters run deep. I would be worried about someone who NEVER showed any anger.....

Salem
 
As for water in the lungs - I would think, if she fell asleep then there would definitely be water in her lungs.

However, there have been many deaths that were ruled drownings when there was NO water in the lungs. See the River Deaths forum here on Websleuths. There has been much discussion of this water in the lungs issue.

In my mind - I am no expert - but it is illogical to me that someone can drown and NOT have water in their lungs. Drowning by definition means you have water in your lungs and can't breathe. I also think it is a question that needs to be answered in this case. Water in the lungs would seem to indicate the possibility that Sarah fell asleep or was unconscious when her head went under water. I would also think, if this was the case, there would be a fair amount of water in her lungs - like more than a teaspoon full.

I'm on the fence on this one. I listened to the audio and while maybe not all the words were just right, it does seem as if the emotion was believable. But maybe Ryan was hyperventilating and out of breath because he had just done the unthinkable?

If Sarah was in the water for 15 mins to 1/2 hour, I would expect to see the water pruning. My question would be, how long after death before the pruning would subside? My own pruning does not last long once I'm out of the water - but would that timeframe be the same if I was dead?

Salem
I always remember that people may cry, but not for what you would expect.
 
I guess I'm not making myself understood. Basically, just because it looked at the scene like she had drowned, was there evidence with the autopsy that her lungs were full of water? That's not something that was made clear on the broadcast. Also, they said that the bruises on her neck could have been caused from the intubation. I worked critical care for years and don't ever remember seeing those types of bruises from an intubation. My husband feels he held her head in the toilet. I can see both sides, truly, I'm just trying to figure out if the scientific evidence is there that she had water in her lungs.
 
Here are the defense closing arguments:

Defense Presents Closing Arguments: 10:20 a.m.

Lead defense attorney Charlie Rittgers tells a 12 member jury that Ryan Widmer is not guilty in the murder of his wife, Sarah, during his closing arguments Wednesday.

Rittgers says that the victim was described by EMS responders as not overly wet, not dry, not overly wet.

Rittgers starts off his closing arguments with negating everything that Vieux brought up in his closing arguments. He starts with the carpet found in the Widmer’s home.

He says one of the prosecution’s witnesses testified that the items that were found in the home were indeed wet when they were packaged.

“So much for the dry carpet.” Rittgers says.

Next he talks about Ryan’s response to the 9-1-1 call. The defense says the first responder made it upstairs; six and a half minutes after Ryan made the call.

Rittgers then show the jury a transcript of the 9-1-1 call with certain questions highlighted.

911 Dispatcher: Have you taken her out of the water yet?

“Yes, she’s lying here unconscious,” Ryan says.

911 Dispatcher: How long was she in there?

Ryan says Sarah was in the tub for about 45 minutes. He then asks the dispatcher if someone was coming.

911 Dispatcher: “Yeah, there already on there way, is there anyway you can get her out of the bathtub?”

Ryan says he can try and he puts the phone down.

Rittgers tells the jury that Ryan did what anyone else would do in this situation, he pulls the drain as he lifts her out.

Rittgers then continues to talk about the magazines.

“The magazines, look at the magazines, they are wrinkled. They weren’t picked up until two and a half hours later,” Rittgers say.

Rittgers closing arguments continue with an observation of the bathtub. He asks the jury to look at the tub and notice the marks on it. He says one of the prosecution’s witnesses said he can’t age those marks, he can’t even determine when the marks were made.

“They think he was lying, that she fell asleep and drowned. Well maybe she had a seizure that night, is he suppose to say I heard of this sudden death syndrome, was he suppose to say that?” Rittgers asks.

“Pruning, pruning , pruning. I don’t know how many times we heard of that. No one knows how long she was in that tub. We don’t know if she was doing her nails, we don’t know if she was on the computer,” Rittgers tells the jury. There’s no evidence that shows how long she was in the tub.

Rittgers continues to negate the prosecutions comments made during their closing arguments. He talks about the fact that the Bengals game was on in the upstairs bedroom.

He asks the jury what’s so strange about Ryan walking in the bedroom, turning on the TV and then heading to the bathroom.

“What theory do they (the prosecution) have as to how this happened? We haven’t heard it,” Rittgers says. “If there was a violent struggle, we don’t have any theory to how this happened.”

Rittgers begins to act out what he’s saying to the jury.

“Well he could have put her head in the toilet, well, where is the water around the toilet, where is the bruising on her knees, where is the bruising on her nose, her cheek?” Rittgers asks the jury.

Rittgers negates the prosecution’s theory that Ryan placed her head in the sink.

“Where’s the water on the sink? Where’s the evidence of struggle around the sink? Where’s the damage to the cabinets?” Rittgers asks.

Rittgers say if there was a violent struggle then wouldn’t Sarah had fought for her life?

He continues to tell the jury if there was a violent struggle there would’ve been marks on Ryan and Sarah. There would’ve been defensive wounds.

“What about those finely manicured nails; there wasn’t one scratch on them,” Rittgers says.

Rittgers tells the jury if Sarah was strangled she would be fighting for her life, she would’ve been grabbing him, she would’ve been breaking fingernails.


Rittgers brings up the bruise found on the back of Sarah’s neck and tells the jury all the other pathologists who testified agreed and said it was minor.

“No marks on the shoulders, no marks on the buttocks. Lacerations on her lip, result from intubation efforts,” Rittgers says.

Next, Rittgers discuss the contusions on her head.

Rittgers tells the jury that Dr. Uptegrove said they are minor and they would not render unconsciousness and Rogers, another witness agreed.

“There’s no evidence at all, it makes no sense, their theory, none,” Rittgers says.

Rittgers tells the jury there were no signs of struggle anywhere in the house and no marks on Ryan or Sarah.

Rittgers tells the jury the prosecution did everything they did to try to convict Ryan.

“They interviewed all his friends, co-workers. They went through business records, personal records, everything, because they were looking for what…motive (he says with conviction)…they don’t have a motive. Where’s the range, where are all the marks and stuff, where’s the hair missing?” Rittgers asks.

Rittgers then says let’s talk about the evidence.

A power point slide is shown to the jury with the following listed:


  • No signs of struggle

  • No defensive wounds on Sarah

  • No marks on Ryan

  • No scratches, cracks, or chips on nails

  • No DNA under Sarah’s nails

  • Wet Hair

  • Body “not overly wet”

  • No wet towels, clothes, etc.

  • According to the EMS workers, her body was /warm/hot

  • No hair lost.

  • No crushed hair

  • No injuries to the knees, toes

Finally, Rittgers discusses the CPR efforts. He says that EMS crews continued to do resuscitation efforts when they got to the hospital.

Rittgers says the prosecution wants us to believe (Rittgers grab the tools used to try to save Sarah) that these tools (as he clamps them) wouldn’t cause much damage.

He tells the jury to use their common sense because the prosecution team has no motive. There wasn’t one negative thing said about Ryan based on testimonies Rittgers says.

“They have to put on their case, beyond unreasonable doubt,” Rittgers says. I didn’t have to have evidence, I didn’t have to have witnesses, and they (the prosecution) do.”

Rittgers reminds the jury the experts all agreed that you can’t rule out seizure or sudden death.

I know one thing; Ryan Widmer had nothing to do with his wife’s death.

Rittgers discusses unreasonable doubt to the jury.

“If you think that the state proved their case by clear and convincing evidence, you still have to rule not-guilty. It has to be met by clear and unreasonable doubt,” Rittgers says.

Rittgers places instructions of determining beyond unreasonable doubt on the projector.

“Prosecution talks a lot about our case, they didn’t talk about their case,” Rittgers says.

“They have no motive, they have 45 minutes of resuscitation, they have no marks on Ryan, they have no defensive motives, they have no scrapes, marks, cracks on fingernails,” Rittgers says. I hope you would agree that Ryan Widmer is not guilty in any wrong doing, thank you very much.”
 

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