"G (Guilty)" vs "NG (Not Guilty)" Where do you stand? #2

[Wudge]

No this is not fact, this is incorrect. My previous statement about Edmund v. Florida is true, but Florida still maintains the DP for Felony murder according to the Bureau of Justice Statistics and these links based on that info.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/state_by_state

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/crimes-punishable-death-penalty

You argued too well against yourself.

 

[ExpectingUnicorns]

This is why I'm on the fence. Laugh if you will, but the State will have to prove that Casey lied to police. They have not proven anything. Nothing has come under cross examination. I found the state in the interogation putting words in Casey's mouth. I understand they are allowed to do that. I think the police are even allowed to lie during an interogation. If the police would have been reasonable and let her explain herself during this interogation, then I may lean to the guilty side. That is not what they did. They did not even let her speak. I have also found in other interviews the police constantly interupt the witness while they are giving information. Perhaps if they would listen for a minute, the witness may give us the truth of what happened. These interviewers are very unprofessional. Once you have a witness in a room and you are recording, there should be no interuption. Let the witness speak. It is hard to get an opinion of G or NG under these circumstances. In court they will all have to behave and let the witness speak.

Not only do you and I strongly disagree about Casey lying to the police but, more importantly, Judge Strickland disagrees with you!!! :shakehead: After Casey's bond hearing (where the judge heard from LE and family) he made his famous comment, "Ms Anthony and the truth are strangers." :gavel:

"Strickland said he was constitutionally bound to give Casey Anthony bond. At one point, he said that she was using her silence as leverage to get out of jail.

After setting her bond, Strickland spoke directly to Casey Anthony, saying that she and the truth are strangers."

http://www.wesh.com/news/16950347/detail.html

 

[notthatsmart]

Not only do you and I strongly disagree about Casey lying to the police but, more importantly, Judge Strickland disagrees with you!!! :shakehead: After Casey's bond hearing (where the judge heard from LE and family) he made his famous comment, "Ms Anthony and the truth are strangers." :gavel:

"Strickland said he was constitutionally bound to give Casey Anthony bond. At one point, he said that she was using her silence as leverage to get out of jail.

After setting her bond, Strickland spoke directly to Casey Anthony, saying that she and the truth are strangers."

http://www.wesh.com/news/16950347/detail.html

Yeah, ya gotta admit, the constitution is way above Judge Strickland. I think Judge Strickland had no business making a comment like that. He had no idea what the truth is. We have a constitution for this very reason. Constitutionally bound. That is a good thing. The Judge should be proud of our checks and balances system. No need to make speculative comments like saying Ms Anthony and the truth are strangers. Shame on you Judge.

 

[marspiter]

You argued too well against yourself.

See this is precisely why posts that state something as fact should be followed by a link. I never presented my post as fact. I said I thought your conclusion was correct but was unsure. I sited Edmund v. Florida because it does state that the death penalty is not eligible for felony murder....under the circumstances of that case. This is also why I asked for anyone to come forward with citation or links regarding this info because I wasn't sure. I however am now positive your are incorrect.

Florida does maintain the DP for felony murder (links provided in earlier post). So your post stating it as a fact that Florida does not maintain the DP for felony murder is wrong and flat out incorrect.

For clarification a felony in which the defendants felounious actions lead directly to the death of a victim can still be given the DP in Florida (supported by Tison v. Arizona). The felonious actions of a defendant that lead indirectly to the victims death can not carry the death penalty Edmund v. Florida.

So once again Florida does maintain the DP for Felony Murder, but the felonious actions must lead directly to the victims death.

So yes your statement about Florida not maintaining the DP for Felony Murder was false, incorrect, and not factual. I did agree with you until I did further reading. Rest assured a mistake I will not make again unless you can back up factual statements with solid links or citation.

 

[Wudge]

Yeah, ya gotta admit, the constitution is way above Judge Strickland. I think Judge Strickland had no business making a comment like that. He had no idea what the truth is. We have a constitution for this very reason. Constitutionally bound. That is a good thing. The Judge should be proud of our checks and balances system. No need to make speculative comments like saying Ms Anthony and the truth are strangers. Shame on you Judge.

titcr

(Grounds for recusal.)

 

[Wudge]

See this is precisely why posts that state something as fact should be followed by a link. I never presented my post as fact. I said I thought your conclusion was correct but was unsure. I sited Edmund v. Florida because it does state that the death penalty is not eligible for felony murder....under the circumstances of that case. This is also why I asked for anyone to come forward with citation or links regarding this info because I wasn't sure. I however am now positive your are incorrect.

Florida does maintain the DP for felony murder (links provided in earlier post). So your post stating it as a fact that Florida does not maintain the DP for felony murder is wrong and flat out incorrect.

For clarification a felony in which the defendants felounious actions lead directly to the death of a victim can still be given the DP in Florida (supported by Tison v. Arizona). The felonious actions of a defendant that lead indirectly to the victims death can not carry the death penalty Edmund v. Florida.

So once again Florida does maintain the DP for Felony Murder, but the felonious actions must lead directly to the victims death.

So yes your statement about Florida not maintaining the DP for Felony Murder was false, incorrect, and not factual. I did agree with you until I did further reading. Rest assured a mistake I will not make again unless you can back up factual statements with solid links or citation.

I said the death penalty was unavailable for felony murder in Florida. I can't post a link that I haven't been able to find (for some time), which applies to statutes and code for Florida as regards the availability of the death penalty for felony murder.

Give reference to a link from the state of Florida. I'll happily acknowledge it.

I think Florida is totally screwed up on this topic. Moreover, the fact that Florida's Supreme Court recently found it necessary to redo jury instructions for death penalty cases reinforces that holding.

 

[marspiter]

Our system of jurisprudence does not require evidence that points to anyone else. Our system of jurisprudence requires prosecutors to present sufficient evidence to prove a specific criminal charge. Because no direct evidence exists in this case, sufficient evidence to prove any of the charges must necessarily come in the form of highly reliable inculpatory evidence.

As regards a valid argument for innocence, Casey is presumed innocent. And based on what we know, there is insufficient inculpatory evidence to prove any of the State's top three charges. Insufficient evidence is certainly a valid argument to support a continuation of the presumption of innocence that Casey is afforded by law.

In reference to the '31 days', that is but still more behavior-based evidence, not inculpatory evidence. In and of itself, behavior-based evidence (and any other corroborative evidence) would be insufficient evidence for a conviction.

Completely missing the point.

Yes in a court of law Casey is innocent until proven guilty in fact I believe I said that. That being said I think its safe to say that many who have followed this case or even glanced at the highlights of this case have come to a conclusion as to Casey's guilt or innocence.

An overwhelming majority seem to agree Casey is guilty and that a lay juror given the same info or more in this case is going to arrive at the same conclusion despite what ever the law says (once again people are not computers). I feel it is going to be hard for the defense to fight against this idea when this case does go to trial. A juror is almost going to have to suspend their very reasoning skills to find Casey not guilty after they hear just the highlights of this case.

Pictures of Caylee with duct tape on her skull, Casey's actions and all the circumstantial evidence in this case are going to sway a jury. *Pointing once again to the overall opinion of this case.*

Casey's defense is going to have a very very hard time unless they can show something themselves. Jurors are going to be very put off by the defense trying to confuse or sway them through trickery. They are going to want a reasonable explanation for why this little girl died

Yes according to our laws Casey's defense could just sit there and say nothing or present no evidence what so ever and the SA is required to prove their case. The fact of the matter is this isn't a computer handing out the verdict. Your talking about real people and unless the defense has something to fight with they are going to lose this case.

I have yet to see one thing the defense has or an argument the defense has made that could sway this opinion of Casey's guilt in their favor.

 

[marspiter]

I said the death penalty was unavailable for felony murder in Florida. I can't post a link that I haven't been able to find (for some time), which applies to statutes and code for Florida as regards the availability of the death penalty for felony murder.

Give reference to a link from the state of Florida. I'll happily acknowledge it.

I think Florida is totally screwed up on this topic. I'm not sure Florida has a clear position. Moreover, the fact that Florida's Supreme Court recently found it necessary to redo jury instructions for death penalty cases reinforces that holding.

Ok now your not clear what Florida's position is after having stated it was a fact Florida did not maintain the DP for Felony murder.

So which is it? Is it a fact, your opinion, or your not sure? What did you base this "fact" on? Was it a reading of Edmund like my assumption was?

I gave links to the website that provides info on the DP being applied to Felony murder in Florida. Those links then have other links that will provide you with the info from the Bureau of Justice statistics. A very reliable source and handy info site.

I will go ahead and assume that Florida does maintain the DP for felony murder as a fact (based on provided links) unless you can provide a link stating otherwise.

 

[ZsaZsa]

Yeah, ya gotta admit, the constitution is way above Judge Strickland. I think Judge Strickland had no business making a comment like that. He had no idea what the truth is. We have a constitution for this very reason. Constitutionally bound. That is a good thing. The Judge should be proud of our checks and balances system. No need to make speculative comments like saying Ms Anthony and the truth are strangers. Shame on you Judge.

I am sure the Judge knows far more about this case than you do, unless you have access to privileged information, or have a source within the family or her lawyers. He has met Casey and seen ALL the information relating to her. Can you say the same?

 

[LambChop]

One other very compelling issue which will come up at trial. The jury will be dealing with the death of a child, senseless, thrown away like trash, Mom too busy partying to care. SA will ask for justice for Caylee and for defense to say someone other than KC did it and we do not have to explain who or why???? Motive, opportunity and access to the child. Mom had it all.

 

[marspiter]

Here is a link to the actual statistical report compiled by the Bureau of Justice Statistics.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/cp05.pdf

Florida has listed First-degree murder; felony
murder; capital drug trafficking; capital
sexual battery. For capitol offenses

The Bureau of Justice Statistics is part of the US Dept of Justice. I would say the info is accurate.

 

[Wudge]

Completely missing the point.

Yes in a court of law Casey is innocent until proven guilty in fact I believe I said that. That being said I think its safe to say that many who have followed this case or even glanced at the highlights of this case have come to a conclusion as to Casey's guilt or innocence.

An overwhelming majority seem to agree Casey is guilty and that a lay juror given the same info or more in this case is going to arrive at the same conclusion despite what ever the law says (once again people are not computers). I feel it is going to be hard for the defense to fight against this idea when this case does go to trial. A juror is almost going to have to suspend their very reasoning skills to find Casey not guilty after they hear just the highlights of this case.

Pictures of Caylee with duct tape on her skull, Casey's actions and all the circumstantial evidence in this case are going to sway a jury. *Pointing once again to the overall opinion of this case.*

Casey's defense is going to have a very very hard time unless they can show something themselves. Jurors are going to be very put off by the defense trying to confuse or sway them through trickery. They are going to want a reasonable explanation for why this little girl died

Yes according to our laws Casey's defense could just sit there and say nothing or present no evidence what so ever and the SA is required to prove their case. The fact of the matter is this isn't a computer handing out the verdict. Your talking about real people and unless the defense has something to fight with they are going to lose this case.

I have yet to see one thing the defense has or an argument the defense has made that could sway this opinion of Casey's guilt in their favor.

I agree. Many people have decided that the evidence we know proves beyond a reasonable doubt that Casey committed a premeditated murder. They've concluded this to be true in spite of the fact that required highly reliable inculpatory evidence in not known to the public.

This represents critically flawed reasoning. Though it's anything but unusual to find such in crime forums.

 

[Wudge]

Ok now your not clear what Florida's position is after having stated it was a fact Florida did not maintain the DP for Felony murder.

So which is it? Is it a fact, your opinion, or your not sure? What did you base this "fact" on? Was it a reading of Edmund like my assumption was?

I gave links to the website that provides info on the DP being applied to Felony murder in Florida. Those links then have other links that will provide you with the info from the Bureau of Justice statistics. A very reliable source and handy info site.

I will go ahead and assume that Florida does maintain the DP for felony murder as a fact (based on provided links) unless you can provide a link stating otherwise.

Assume as you wish. That certainly does not change my position.

 

[Wudge]

SNIP

The Bureau of Justice Statistics is part of the US Dept of Justice. I would say the info is accurate.

Not I.

 

[marspiter]

Not I.

So your saying the report is not correct and the US Dept of Justice is wrong in this info? Your saying Florida doesn't maintain the DP for Felony Murder despite what this report says? Keeping it in mind this is pretty current 1/30/2007 info. Do you have something newer?


Do you have equal info to what I have provided to back up this statement? Please feel free to provide correcting information (citation and or links). Doesn't have to be electronic website links. If you have a citation for something in writing such as a law book, Florida statute, or any other citation I can track it down.

I would personally like to see this cleared up if it is indeed wrong info. If not I will stand by the info provided by the US Dept of Justice.

 

[marspiter]

Assume as you wish. That certainly does not change my position.

Well it's either a fact or it's not. No real position to be had here.

Either Florida has the DP for Felony Murder or it doesn't.
Pretty much a yes or no answer.

I have shown where they do with reliable accurate citation.
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/cp05.pdf

Now if you said you think Florida shouldn't have the DP for Felony Murder that would be different. That would be an opinion and its perfectly ok to have a position on an opinion.

 

[notthatsmart]

I am sure the Judge knows far more about this case than you do, unless you have access to privileged information, or have a source within the family or her lawyers. He has met Casey and seen ALL the information relating to her. Can you say the same?

I don't think I would challenge a Judge as to what he knows. What he knew when he made his statement about Ms Anthony and the truth had to be limited based on when it was that he made the statement. I still say at that point in time, Shame on you Judge for making a statement like that in the peoples court of law. He set the tone for the press to make a big case out of this. He may indeed be the reason we end up with a change of venue costing us even more money. I see a Judge as a Stuart of the court, not the owner of the court. I have no tolerance for Judges to make comments like these. Now it will cost us even more money. He needs to control his temper and he seems to be doing much better now.

 

[Wudge]

So your saying the report is not correct and the US Dept of Justice is wrong in this info? Your saying Florida doesn't maintain the DP for Felony Murder despite what this report says? Keeping it in mind this is pretty current 1/30/2007 info. Do you have something newer?


Do you have equal info to what I have provided to back up this statement? Please feel free to provide correcting information (citation and or links). Doesn't have to be electronic website links. If you have a citation for something in writing such as a law book, Florida statute, or any other citation I can track it down.

I would personally like to see this cleared up if it is indeed wrong info. If not I will stand by the info provided by the US Dept of Justice.

I said earlier that I will happily acknowledge a link from the state of Florida.

Please understand, I don't really care if the death penalty is available for felony murder, because Casey is not charged with felony murdrer, and I consider that proper and appropriate. For my assessment of the evidence that we know of does not provide a basis for charging Casey with felony murder.

I well understand too that felony murder in Florida is based on proximate cause and not agency, and that there are three degrees of felony murder available in Florida, which -- though I hold to be great as far as dealing with a just charge -- further complicates a law that is greatly misunderstood across the nation. So yes, I will wait for a link from the state of Florida, for as I said earlier, I consider Florida to be totally screwed up in this arena.

HTH

 

[Rlaub44]

No. Prosecutors don't define what is and is not evidence. The defense is permitted to present a case along with supporting evidence.

So because a wooded area has garbage in it, that should be considered somehow exculpatory in your view? That would be like saying since there were other cars in the Amscot parking lot, somehow that fact benefits the defense?

Nobody has demonstrated that the prosecution or defense are planning on using the gatorade bottle or syringe as evidence. It may very well be just potential pieces of evidence that were tested and found unrelated. That does not benefit anyone, and it doesn't add to any discussion of guilty or not guilty.

Note also that I never stated in my earlier post that it was evidence. As you like to say, please don't put words in my mouth.

 

[marspiter]

I said earlier that I will happily acknowledge a link from the state of Florida.

Please understand, I don't really care if the death penalty is available for felony murder, because Casey is not charged with felony murdrer, and I consider that proper and appropriate. For my assessment of the evidence that we know of does not provide a basis for charging Casey with felony murder.

I well understand too that felony murder in Florida is based on proximate cause and not agency, and that there are three degrees of felony murder available in Florida, which -- though I hold to be great as far as dealing with a just charge -- further complicates a law that is greatly misunderstood across the nation. So yes, I will wait for a link from the state of Florida, for as I said earlier, I consider Florida to be totally screwed up in this arena.

HTH

No she's not charged with Felony murder, and I personally don't think the SA is going to go that route. Also keep in mind that the SA could ask for the jury to be instructed on Felony Murder with out her being charged for it.

However you stated as fact that Florida did not maintain the DP for Felony Murder. I agreed because of the Edmund v. Florida verdict. However after further research I now know that assessment was incorrect.

You have failed to provided any link or citation to back up your "fact".

I however have provided reliable, accurate, and recent citation from the US Department of Justice.

Based on this information and so there is no confusion for others in this forum, it can be said that the DP is maintained for Felony Murder in Florida. Until information can be provided to prove otherwise. I welcome anyone that can provide a better more accurate source then the one provided to prove otherwise. Because if it is not accurate I feel the forum should know. So we can make educated decisions and discussions based on accurate info.