Dogs

[JBean]

Apologies for the off topic but this is important to me.
When you guys say something is "on the dog thread" do you mean a dog thread specific to Amber's case or is there a general "SAR dog" thread here at WS that discusses SAR dogs? If so would someone be so kind as to provide a link. I have just begun to train dogs (HRD and tracking) and would love to read/participate on a general SAR dog thread if there is one here. I could sure use and would appreciate the input of experienced handlers. TIA

you are in the dog thread. Some people were posting offtopic in other threads and their posts were moved here where they belong.

 

[JustToSeeYouSmile]

Good morning to you as well, although afternoon now here! And yes, please abbreviate how you see fit
Yes, for our certs all dogs are certified in trailing first, then cross trained. That would certainly explain why ya'll had so many more certified....but how do you deal with FEMA? We have dogs that are just awesome, but not certified (as per our PM last night, lol) but we cannot call out those dogs in situations where we have to show certs to FEMA

I don't understand what's going on with the 6-months later scent thing either. I'm wondering if there was an HRD dog that picked up something. But the trailing I have a hard time with- unless they just picked up the scent there and then transported the dog(s) to where they *thought* she might have been...

Good morning!
Justtoseeyousmile (hey, can I abbreviate that somehow, that's a lot of letters! lol), just catching up. In your area ALL dogs have to be trained in trailing first before specializing, is that correct? That might explain why we have so many more dogs out on the West Coast. We do have dogs that are cross trained but it isn't a requirement a lot of ours are specialized only.

I think that finding the scent 6 months later is highly suspect, I do not see it possible that she was there earlier than that and they were finding that scent. Plus, unless she used a false name there were no records of her checking out anything. There are a lot of libraries closer than the 20 miles away that the Pala one is.

I am also holding the door open that she may have initially gone off with someone voluntarily but if I recall the lamb was being purchased from someone she knew, so I don't think that would have been the lure.

 

[Ghostwheel]

I read a news article yesterday wherein the dogs' handlers stated the dogs tracked her scent approximately 3 miles up Pala-Temecula road (no link now but will look for it) and they could find no "exit" for her so they assumed she was deceased. In that story a fire chief stated no way could a search dog do that 6 months after the fact. But the fact is the handlers said the dogs could do it and I don't think there's a doubt that they did it.

I would love to see a dated report, from the company, with coffee stains to prove it's been around for a while or some other proof that really was reported back in August, and exactly how they got to Pala Library. I can't see the dogs hanging out the window telling the handlers which exit to get off of. I also cannot see Amber getting out of whatever vehicle she might have been in (even voluntarily) at the 76 off ramp, just to drop some scent. In August, if you have AC in your car, you have the windows rolled up and the AC on.

 

[JustToSeeYouSmile]

Let's contemplate for a moment the hideous heat wave that we'd had by last August. If there's any truth at all to this story of the dogs leading searchers to Pala six months after Amber disappeared, I think we're seeing a combination of coincidence and the 'Clever Hans' phenomenon, where the dogs react to subliminal cues from the dog handlers, who recognize the Pala road as a plausible dumping site, react to the library because the family told them how much Amber loved books, etc....

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but...working dogs need a handler. They work off of one another. Handlers HAVE to send cues to their dogs, and HAVE to bring them where they think they might be needed. Their dogs need to send cues to THEM. Otherwise you're just getting lucky when you're out taking a walk with your lab and he stumbles across a pile of bones. You know?

 

[sarx]

LOL, FEMA, who's that, they never show up in our neck of the woods!? Ok kidding, but we don't interact with them much except for disaster cases like earthquakes and floods. OES certs for the state as well as CARDA certs have always been good with them in the past.

HRD dogs (for those of you that don't know, it stands for human remains detection, in case anyone was wondering!) picking up something that "young" I get, that's just a new scent as far as they're concerned, but quite the opposite for a trailing dog.

So... under that theory, if we went that they were using their trailing techniques, but were cued in on a cadaver smell then she what was killed up by the school and transported at a later time?

 

[sarx]

I think what Marie is saying is that maybe the dogs were influenced a little too much by their handler (correct me if I'm wrong please). That is totally plausible, done it myself.

 

[JustToSeeYouSmile]

I think what Marie is saying is that maybe the dogs were influenced a little too much by their handler (correct me if I'm wrong please). That is totally plausible, done it myself.

No, I agree totally. It happens.

 

[JustToSeeYouSmile]

LOL, FEMA, who's that, they never show up in our neck of the woods!? Ok kidding, but we don't interact with them much except for disaster cases like earthquakes and floods. OES certs for the state as well as CARDA certs have always been good with them in the past.

HRD dogs (for those of you that don't know, it stands for human remains detection, in case anyone was wondering!) picking up something that "young" I get, that's just a new scent as far as they're concerned, but quite the opposite for a trailing dog.

So... under that theory, if we went that they were using their trailing techniques, but were cued in on a cadaver smell then she what was killed up by the school and transported at a later time?

No joke! They don't show up much in our neck of the woods either, but we learned our lesson from both 9/11 and Katrina. But that's a whole other thread!
Maybe I should clarify more- we are good here cert-wise getting called out by the PD or military or personal. But have found that cross training after trailing is more useful. So yes, I do think it's possible that a cross trained dog would 'trail' an HR scent. Do you disagree?

 

[sarx]

No, not in theory (and there are a lot of variables that then come into play cuz HR scent does different things than live scent), I don't, but then are we saying that what the dogs were trailing was HR scent from the school?

 

[sarx]

Maybe it's because we have a whole lotta people training and working dogs but we tend to stay more specialized in part because we have the luxury and in part because it allows us to know what we're working with (live, deceased, etc) and in part because in our court system we have a hard enough time getting anything admitted, if dogs worked multiple disciplines everything would get thrown out with the "well how do you know he was alive at that time if you're dog can trail both live and dead". It also can take forever to get through the cert processes and jump through all the political hoops, I can't imagine torturing myself that way!

edit to add- We also have a lot of great dogs that would absolutely stink at other disciplines and I would hate to have them not in the field because they had to be cross trained and couldn't cut it.

 

[SoCalSleuth]

I would love to see a dated report, from the company, with coffee stains to prove it's been around for a while or some other proof that really was reported back in August, and exactly how they got to Pala Library. I can't see the dogs hanging out the window telling the handlers which exit to get off of. I also cannot see Amber getting out of whatever vehicle she might have been in (even voluntarily) at the 76 off ramp, just to drop some scent. In August, if you have AC in your car, you have the windows rolled up and the AC on.

What the handler's said: 1) they went to her house to pick up her scent; 2) they followed it to somewhere before the school; 3) they then followed it to the I-15 freeway; 4) they then drove the dogs to every off-ramp heading north. They took the dogs out at every off-ramp. Nothing until they got to Pala. 5) The dogs picked up her scent in Pala and followed it to about 3 miles up pala-temecula road. One would think that they had a written report that was presented to LE, but I don't know anything about it. Here's the link: http://www.signon.mobi/sdut/db_1438...id=VbtJwxZE&detailindex=1&pn=0&ps=2&full=true That's not the original article I read, it's a shorter version. The original was more detailed and I'm looking for it.

 

[sarx]

Note SoCal, that what we were saying is more or less how you would run that search, I for one still don't buy that they were able to pick up a six month old trail and follow it 20 miles, much less a six month old car trail.

Just wanted to make clear the difference!

 

[JustToSeeYouSmile]

No, not in theory (and there are a lot of variables that then come into play cuz HR scent does different things than live scent), I don't, but then are we saying that what the dogs were trailing was HR scent from the school?

Actually I was thinking more that it would be HR specific possibly. Like blood from a feminine product or something as such? Some scent's are 'old' but 'fresh' at the same time. (Sorry to be graphic- Oriah should be answering these questions.) And yes I agree about LE, the court system etc. But it is impossibly difficult to have SAR or HRD dog evidence admitted no matter what, IMO. Maybe that's just this neck of the woods. Doesn't mean it isn't there, you know?

Separate topic, but if anyone is interested in certain qualifications for SAR dogs... here's a link.

http://www.nasar.org

 

[SoCalSleuth]

Note SoCal, that what we were saying is more or less how you would run that search, I for one still don't buy that they were able to pick up a six month old trail and follow it 20 miles, much less a six month old car trail.

Just wanted to make clear the difference!

Per their website they specialize in cold cases and have received police commendations for their work on cold cases. Personally, I don't know squat about the subject--other than my dogs can find skeletons (animals of course) buried deep in the ground and they have no training, they're just dogs. So some sort of scent has to be left after decomposition that a dog can pick up.

 

[Ghostwheel]

Note SoCal, that what we were saying is more or less how you would run that search, I for one still don't buy that they were able to pick up a six month old trail and follow it 20 miles, much less a six month old car trail.

Just wanted to make clear the difference!

So for my own edification, could you tell me how a dog would pick up a scent at a freeway ramp from someone inside a car, say with the windows rolled up and AC on, even a fresh trail? If a car is recycling the air inside the vehicle, would enough exit the vehicle for a dog to trail, especially since there are so many other vehicle moving the spore around? Has this been done successfully?

 

[Ghostwheel]

What the handler's said: 1) they went to her house to pick up her scent; 2) they followed it to somewhere before the school; 3) they then followed it to the I-15 freeway; 4) they then drove the dogs to every off-ramp heading north. They took the dogs out at every off-ramp. Nothing until they got to Pala. 5) The dogs picked up her scent in Pala and followed it to about 3 miles up pala-temecula road. One would think that they had a written report that was presented to LE, but I don't know anything about it. Here's the link: http://www.signon.mobi/sdut/db_1438...id=VbtJwxZE&detailindex=1&pn=0&ps=2&full=true That's not the original article I read, it's a shorter version. The original was more detailed and I'm looking for it.

Sorry, the bit about the dogs hanging out the window was a joke, I know how it's supposed to work (never seen that myself, however). Thanks for the link. If there was a report, we won't be seeing it for a while. I'd really be impressed if there was one and it said all those things the company is claiming.

 

[JustToSeeYouSmile]

Per their website they specialize in cold cases and have received police commendations for their work on cold cases. Personally, I don't know squat about the subject--other than my dogs can find skeletons (animals of course) buried deep in the ground and they have no training, they're just dogs. So some sort of scent has to be left after decomposition that a dog can pick up.

I'm pretty sure everyone who has ever had a dog (and especially those who live in the country, or with a little room to roam) have experienced this.
Never fun.

 

[JustToSeeYouSmile]

Sorry, the bit about the dogs hanging out the window was a joke, I know how it's supposed to work (never seen that myself, however). Thanks for the link. If there was a report, we won't be seeing it for a while. I'd really be impressed if there was one and it said all those things the company is claiming.

I have no idea about the company in question. I do know we don't let our dogs hang out windows to catch a scent. They are crated in transport. But I know Oriah will pull over at possible locations already known, and let dogs try and follow a scent.

ETA: then again- we do let them hang over the sides of boats for water recovery....

 

[Ghostwheel]

... But I know Oriah will pull over at possible locations already known, and let dogs try and follow a scent.
...

That makes sense, and it would at least make sense if the dogs STARTED at the Pala Library (as in: someone thought they might have seen her there, with or without someone else).

And I would ask the same question as before, would a dog likely be able to find a trail on a busy freeway ramp (just pull the trailing vehicle over and let the dogs try to catch a scent) when the person being trailed is in a car, with the windows rolled up, AC on. Have you known of any successful trailings like that?
TIA

 

[jjenny]

Per their website they specialize in cold cases and have received police commendations for their work on cold cases. Personally, I don't know squat about the subject--other than my dogs can find skeletons (animals of course) buried deep in the ground and they have no training, they're just dogs. So some sort of scent has to be left after decomposition that a dog can pick up.

But those weren't cadaver dogs. They were supposedly following a scent of a live person months after the fact, as far as I understand it.
I mean, are dogs really able to do something like that?