CO CO - Kayleah Wilson, 12, Greeley, 28 March 2010 - #6

[raeann]

What I'm saying is that it is a social problem that is lumped together with genuine criminal activity because "we don't like it". Chances are she was neither exploited nor assaulted, but we apply those labels because "we don't like it" and it gives us a bat to hit someone on the head with. But those are just labels, it doesn't mean those things actually happened. Sometimes those things DO happen though, and that is where you need to apply a criminal hammer, other than that it is a SOCIAL issue.

If it turns out that she was killed because of the consequences a consensual relationship, then part of her blood is on the hands of those who put those rules in place. Sorry if you don't like that, but that is how I see it. If you impose rules you have to accept partial responsibility for what stems from them. In this situation those rules don't protect anyone and only serve to hurt people. That is where the shame is, this is a social problem, not a criminal one, and there has to be a better way of dealing with it.

Anyway, she is dead and it just makes me sad and mad, because it is looking like this was one of those stupid pointless situations.

BBM
I can't see the logic in this, since it would then follow (using the same logic) that when someone murders a victim after they rob them, so that they will not be identified, it is fault of those who made the laws saying robbery was illegal. This logic would presume, therefore, that had robbery just been a legal act, there would have been no need to murder the victim.

There is really no excuse basis here, regardless, because all teenagers know very well what the laws are regarding this type of intimate relationship with anyone underage. Such a relationship with a PRETEEN was a choice made by a young man who knew it was wrong. A choice to break the law.

jmoo

 

[BeanE]

What I'm saying is that it is a social problem that is lumped together with genuine criminal activity because "we don't like it". Chances are she was neither exploited nor assaulted, but we apply those labels because "we don't like it" and it gives us a bat to hit someone on the head with. But those are just labels, it doesn't mean those things actually happened. Sometimes those things DO happen though, and that is where you need to apply a criminal hammer, other than that it is a SOCIAL issue.

If it turns out that she was killed because of the consequences a consensual relationship, then part of her blood is on the hands of those who put those rules in place. Sorry if you don't like that, but that is how I see it. If you impose rules you have to accept partial responsibility for what stems from them. In this situation those rules don't protect anyone and only serve to hurt people. That is where the shame is, this is a social problem, not a criminal one, and there has to be a better way of dealing with it.

Anyway, she is dead and it just makes me sad and mad, because it is looking like this was one of those stupid pointless situations.

Sex between an adult and a child, even if the child appears to consent to it, is NEVER right, ALWAYS wrong.

The only social problem here is pedophilia - and we deal with that with the laws that attempt to protect children from these predators, and those who promulgate their self-serving agenda that brings harm to so many children, day in and day out.

 

[MCDRAW]

What I'm saying is that it is a social problem that is lumped together with genuine criminal activity because "we don't like it". Chances are she was neither exploited nor assaulted, but we apply those labels because "we don't like it" and it gives us a bat to hit someone on the head with. But those are just labels, it doesn't mean those things actually happened. Sometimes those things DO happen though, and that is where you need to apply a criminal hammer, other than that it is a SOCIAL issue.

If it turns out that she was killed because of the consequences a consensual relationship, then part of her blood is on the hands of those who put those rules in place. Sorry if you don't like that, but that is how I see it. If you impose rules you have to accept partial responsibility for what stems from them. In this situation those rules don't protect anyone and only serve to hurt people. That is where the shame is, this is a social problem, not a criminal one, and there has to be a better way of dealing with it.

Anyway, she is dead and it just makes me sad and mad, because it is looking like this was one of those stupid pointless situations.

I might agree if they were both 17 or 18 and 17. But he is 18 which is considered an adult. She was 12 not even considered a teenager. It's hard to justify that relationship,IMO. The truth of the matter is no matter how stupid one feels the law is, one has to obey them or pay the price.

 

[sarx]

It is a social problem that it is not ok for a 12 year old to be dating and having sex with an 18 year old- I am sorry, what-
So, if there was no law, this would be ok. I am really not seeing the logic here. What country are we in and what century is it-
(sorry for no question marks, my keyboard is on the fritz)

 

[Bewildered]

I have been gone the better part of the weekend and am just trying to catch up. Has it been confirmed that she was pregnant: I am seeing a lot of talk about this as if it is fact and did not know that had been confirmed. TIA

It has not yet been confirmed whether or not Kayleah was pregnant.

 

[emmcee]

I know of two situations where a young girl (12 or 13) and an older guy (18/19) fell in love.

In the first instance, the girl was actually sent by her mother to tag along with her older sister and the guy. The thinking was that having a young sibling along, the older couple wouldn't get into trouble. It happened that the young sister and the boyfriend of the older sister fell in love. I have no idea if their relationship was sexual or not, but the love was real. He went into the service and when he returned a few years later they married. Last I heard they'd been married 40 years or so.

In the second instance, the parents broke up the couple b/c of the age difference. They both went on to marry other people but never forgot their first love. After raising children and having fairly lengthy marriages to others, they both were divorced (unknown to each other). They found each other again and married late in life. He's gone now, but they were always grateful that they found each other again and had a blissful relationship. They were sorry that they missed out on having a family together.

So even though falling in 'real' love at that young age may seem unnatural to many (most?) people, it does happen.

I'm absolutely NOT saying that Kayleah and this guy were 'in love' however. With his previous history of sexual attacks, I think he's a pervert and a pedophile. I do think she probably was naive enough to believe his lines.

 

[darlin gal]

I know of two situations where a young girl (12 or 13) and an older guy (18/19) fell in love.

In the first instance, the girl was actually sent by her mother to tag along with her older sister and the guy. The thinking was that having a young sibling along, the older couple wouldn't get into trouble. It happened that the young sister and the boyfriend of the older sister fell in love. I have no idea if their relationship was sexual or not, but the love was real. He went into the service and when he returned a few years later they married. Last I heard they'd been married 40 years or so.

In the second instance, the parents broke up the couple b/c of the age difference. They both went on to marry other people but never forgot their first love. After raising children and having fairly lengthy marriages to others, they both were divorced (unknown to each other). They found each other again and married late in life. He's gone now, but they were always grateful that they found each other again and had a blissful relationship. They were sorry that they missed out on having a family together.

So even though falling in 'real' love at that young age may seem unnatural to many (most?) people, it does happen.

I'm absolutely NOT saying that Kayleah and this guy were 'in love' however. With his previous history of sexual attacks, I think he's a pervert and a pedophile. I do think she probably was naive enough to believe his lines.

He doesn't have a previous history. That was reported in error. I will see if I can find the post.

ETA: It was only reported by one station and quickly redacted. So I am guessing, their "source" was wrong.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Found Deceased CO - Kayleah Wilson, 12, Greeley, 28 March 2010 - Thread #6

 

[eyes4crime]

What I'm saying is that it is a social problem that is lumped together with genuine criminal activity because "we don't like it". Chances are she was neither exploited nor assaulted, but we apply those labels because "we don't like it" and it gives us a bat to hit someone on the head with. But those are just labels, it doesn't mean those things actually happened. Sometimes those things DO happen though, and that is where you need to apply a criminal hammer, other than that it is a SOCIAL issue.

If it turns out that she was killed because of the consequences a consensual relationship, then part of her blood is on the hands of those who put those rules in place. Sorry if you don't like that, but that is how I see it. If you impose rules you have to accept partial responsibility for what stems from them. In this situation those rules don't protect anyone and only serve to hurt people. That is where the shame is, this is a social problem, not a criminal one, and there has to be a better way of dealing with it.

Anyway, she is dead and it just makes me sad and mad, because it is looking like this was one of those stupid pointless situations.

Natal - Are you saying that because we put an age limit to sexual activities - we are making a social issue into a crime? Maybe in some cases.

If you think 12yo isn't young enough to turn sex into a crime - what age do you think is correct? How about 10yo, 8yo, 5yo? and should the partner be any age, up to 80yo. Are you saying a 50yo man and a 10yo child having sex is only a crime because society creates laws saying it is - and if society would stay out of it, all would be okay? I think there are some countries like that but we aren't one of them. MOO

 

[eyes4crime]

He doesn't have a previous history. That was reported in error. I will see if I can find the post.

ETA: It was only reported by one station and quickly redacted. So I am guessing, their "source" was wrong.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Found Deceased CO - Kayleah Wilson, 12, Greeley, 28 March 2010 - Thread #6

I was wondering how we would know his history - this guy was a minor until this last January, and I'm sure his juvenile records are sealed.

 

[cakegirl0905]

What I'm saying is that it is a social problem that is lumped together with genuine criminal activity because "we don't like it". Chances are she was neither exploited nor assaulted, but we apply those labels because "we don't like it" and it gives us a bat to hit someone on the head with. But those are just labels, it doesn't mean those things actually happened. Sometimes those things DO happen though, and that is where you need to apply a criminal hammer, other than that it is a SOCIAL issue.

If it turns out that she was killed because of the consequences a consensual relationship, then part of her blood is on the hands of those who put those rules in place. Sorry if you don't like that, but that is how I see it. If you impose rules you have to accept partial responsibility for what stems from them. In this situation those rules don't protect anyone and only serve to hurt people. That is where the shame is, this is a social problem, not a criminal one, and there has to be a better way of dealing with it.

Anyway, she is dead and it just makes me sad and mad, because it is looking like this was one of those stupid pointless situations.

I'm going to say something unpopular. But I agree with you on about half of what you said.

I find our society so hypocritical. You have Miley Cyrus gyrating half naked on stage with a stripper pole or giving lap dances. Girls that are underage are super sexualized, but are completely off limits. Look but don't touch. Oh but wait, don't look either.

We can't have it both ways. Censorship of underage girls needs to be stronger-they need to be more covered up and less sexual when performing.

I'm not saying Kayleah deserved anything that happened to her, or defending SO's in any way. I just feel like the media shouldn't be exploiting girls this age and then have the massive witch hunts when men act on it for the entertainment of the masses. Something is wrong here!

 

[Mamabear1963]

I'm going to say something unpopular. But I agree with you on about half of what you said.

I find our society so hypocritical. You have Miley Cyrus gyrating half naked on stage with a stripper pole or giving lap dances. Girls that are underage are super sexualized, but are completely off limits. Look but don't touch. Oh but wait, don't look either.

We can't have it both ways. Censorship of underage girls needs to be stronger-they need to be more covered up and less sexual when performing.

I'm not saying Kayleah deserved anything that happened to her, or defending SO's in any way. I just feel like the media shouldn't be exploiting girls this age and then have the massive witch hunts when men act on it for the entertainment of the masses. Something is wrong here!

I will agree with this.

 

[BeanE]

May 24, 2010 12:36 PM
Kayleah Wilson Update: 18-Year-Old Boyfriend Arrested For Rape, Not Murder

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-20005740-504083.html

 

[BeanE]

May 24, 2010 11:53 am US/Mountain
Mourners Prepare For Kayleah's Memorial On Tuesday

A public memorial service will be held Tuesday afternoon for 12-year-old Kayleah Wilson.

Over the weekend visitors came to Greeley from as far away as Nebraska to pay their respects to the sixth grader, whose body was found in an irrigation ditch last week.

A makeshift memorial was set up near the ditch for the Greeley girl, who had been missing for nearly two months.

http://cbs4denver.com/news/kayleah.wilson.murdered.2.1711536.html

 

[grayjay]

Talking about real love is one thing. And yes, times have changed. It's no longer OK to do a lot of things our parents and grandparents did in their teen years, because a nation of laws works that way. If an 18-yo really truly loves a 12-yo, they should rightly express that love by staying in their adult pants and out of the child's pants.

 

[Natal]

BBM
I can't see the logic in this, since it would then follow (using the same logic) that when someone murders a victim after they rob them, so that they will not be identified, it is fault of those who made the laws saying robbery was illegal. This logic would presume, therefore, that had robbery just been a legal act, there would have been no need to murder the victim.

There is really no excuse basis here, regardless, because all teenagers know very well what the laws are regarding this type of intimate relationship with anyone underage. Such a relationship with a PRETEEN was a choice made by a young man who knew it was wrong. A choice to break the law.

jmoo

No, because robbery is a violent act or act of malice that is clearly non consensual. A murder stemming from that is a continuation of the original crime.

When you make a relationship criminal by statutory means like this, you make one party criminal and the other not. However, in a consensual relationship both parties are participating, but only one is punished. The one who is not punished can then go and repeat the behaviour over and over with impunity (and probably will) because the law can't touch them. Where is the sense in that? what is the corrective behaviour society takes? Nothing! The way that society is dealing with this issue is all wrong.

As far as laws being broken so far as consent is concerned, and the need to punish people basically for falling in love, I would like to point out that I come from South Africa. When I was young the laws of apartheid were in full force. One of those laws made it criminal for black and white people to have an intimate relationship. If they caught you doing that you could go to jail for it. I knew people who had those sorts of relationships, and they risked everything because they were in love, even though they knew it was strictly forbidden. It makes you wonder though, how many times "unfortunate" things happened when that sort of relationship was in risk of being exposed. That is the problem when you criminalize emotional behaviour.

I think a more logical approach would be to criminalize situations which involve a position of trust or power (direct or implicit), financial exploitation or coercion is involved. And then in situations that don't involve those things, issue a court order against the older party and an intervention against the younger party. If the older party violates the court order, then send them to prison for violating the court order. Intervention could take the form of court ordered counselling, assessment of the home situation, and if necessary in extreme cases institutionalizing in some way. The point is that these situations can be dealt with in a more rational progressive manner to correct the problem rather than simply throwing people in prison and stigmatizing them for life.

 

[Kentjbkent]

May 24, 2010 12:36 PM
Kayleah Wilson Update: 18-Year-Old Boyfriend Arrested For Rape, Not Murder

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-20005740-504083.html

And let's not forget that we are discussing sex between a 12 year old......THIS 12 YEAR OLD.....and an 18 yr old!

THIS 12 year old does not appear to me to be "mature beyond her years", "sexually advanced" or any of the other phrases used to explain why a 12 yr old may be capable of "consent"...

THIS 12 year appears to me to be typical of young girls her age..just starting middle school (6th grade) with a goal of having her "first boyfriend" who will walk her to the bus or walk her home and maybe carry her books, (unless of course, said "boyfriend" uses his "position of power or trust" over her, and later refers to it as "consent".) And then she will go climb trees with the other kids in the neighborhood.

I could conceivably debate whether or not the age of 16 should be considered an age of consent, but TWELVE.....

NO WAY, NO HOW! And I am disgusted at the knowledge that anyone would think it was appropriate! :furious:

 

[Kentjbkent]

No, because robbery is a violent act or act of malice that is clearly non consensual. A murder stemming from that is a continuation of the original crime.

When you make a relationship criminal by statutory means like this, you make one party criminal and the other not. However, in a consensual relationship both parties are participating, but only one is punished. The one who is not punished can then go and repeat the behaviour over and over with impunity (and probably will) because the law can't touch them. Where is the sense in that? what is the corrective behaviour society takes? Nothing! The way that society is dealing with this issue is all wrong.

As far as laws being broken so far as consent is concerned, and the need to punish people basically for falling in love, I would like to point out that I come from South Africa. When I was young the laws of apartheid were in full force. One of those laws made it criminal for black and white people to have an intimate relationship. If they caught you doing that you could go to jail for it. I knew people who had those sorts of relationships, and they risked everything because they were in love, even though they knew it was strictly forbidden. It makes you wonder though, how many times "unfortunate" things happened when that sort of relationship was in risk of being exposed. That is the problem when you criminalize emotional behaviour.

I think a more logical approach would be to criminalize situations which involve a position of trust or power (direct or implicit), financial exploitation or coercion is involved. And then in situations that don't involve those things, issue a court order against the older party and an intervention against the younger party. If the older party violates the court order, then send them to prison for violating the court order. Intervention could take the form of court ordered counselling, assessment of the home situation, and if necessary in extreme cases institutionalizing in some way. The point is that these situations can be dealt with in a more rational progressive manner to correct the problem rather than simply throwing people in prison and stigmatizing them for life.

Whew....for a while now, I have been convinced that you were promoting a particular agenda, but now I see we are in complete agreement.....:dance:

You stated above....

I think a more logical approach would be to criminalize situations which involve a position of trust or power (direct or implicit),

.....and I completely agree.

In THIS case, the 18 year old held a position of power and possibly trust over the 12 year old (age would dictate this...they are not peers), so the situation SHOULD be criminalized.....which it WAS....when LE ARRESTED this PERP (not the word I WANTED to use!)

 

[panthera]

I was wondering how we would know his history - this guy was a minor until this last January, and I'm sure his juvenile records are sealed.

And speaking of him being a juvenile until Jan. 18: they supposedly started seeing each other last fall, while he was a minor. They supposedly continue to see each other past Jan. 18 when he turned 18 and became an adult. What I'm trying to figure out, not knowing the law in Colorado, is if there was anything legally wrong with them being together before Jan. 18? I'm trying to get a feel for what his defense might try to come up with. :waitasec: I'm not condoning it at all, just want to know what the law there is. MOO

 

[Kentjbkent]

And speaking of him being a juvenile until Jan. 18: they supposedly started seeing each other last fall, while he was a minor. They supposedly continue to see each other past Jan. 18 when he turned 18 and became an adult. What I'm trying to figure out, not knowing the law in Colorado, is if there was anything legally wrong with them being together before Jan. 18? I'm trying to get a feel for what his defense might try to come up with. :waitasec: I'm not condoning it at all, just want to know what the law there is. MOO

Not sure of the law specifically in Colorado, but can tell you that here in Georgia, statutory rape charges can be brought against 17 year olds.

 

[Kentjbkent]

And speaking of him being a juvenile until Jan. 18: they supposedly started seeing each other last fall, while he was a minor. They supposedly continue to see each other past Jan. 18 when he turned 18 and became an adult. What I'm trying to figure out, not knowing the law in Colorado, is if there was anything legally wrong with them being together before Jan. 18? I'm trying to get a feel for what his defense might try to come up with. :waitasec: I'm not condoning it at all, just want to know what the law there is. MOO

Colorado

§18-3-402

Sexual assault to knowingly inflicts sexual intrusion or sexual penetration on a victim (1) under age 15 if the actor is at least four years older or (2) at least 15 years old but less than 17 years old and the actor is at least 10 years older.

http://www.cga.ct.gov/2003/olrdata/jud/rpt/2003-r-0376.htm