Peru - Stephany Flores, 21, murdered in Lima hotel room, 30 May 2010 #14

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From PattyG's Video -
JeanC: Press release today - ...diagramming and describing possibly a time line
 
Danie said:
Why not move it to Greenland, and move the capitol of France to
.... Tibet. Let's see. Where would she like the Chicago Cubs moved to?
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The family sure thinks they can always run the show, unbelievable![/QUOTE]

This cracks me up! :furious: I cannot conceive how they think, much less ask, for trial and confinement to be moved to the country of their choice!:banghead: Maybe I'm wrong, but, if the crime is committed in Peru ( France, Egypt, China, Sweden, etc), the trial is held in that country as well as the sentence or time to be served in prison. Probably the only acception to that would be if it was on a Military base (just guessing at that)....
 
HLN:
JeanC Live: The judge is/will be the most important person in the proceedings in Peru (versus our system)
 
Fascinating to me that a ''fair trial'' means that you are obliged to let in the public ((oh gee that will be a security nightmare)
 
It will be interesting to see why inmate #326390 despises women.
Yes he hates Beth H. and no regards for his victims, also looks like
mom also.
Wonder what his life was really like.
Why the separate living quarters within the home?
What age did they move him in his own quarters?
Where did he get the money to party, gamble while still in school?
Did inmate #326390 ever have rules? guidelines?
Was he a child handed money and adults said go play, get out of here?
Was he the golden boy to dad and mom that did disipline?
Was he just a spoiled brat like Scott P? KC?
What happened?
 
He was gambling underage when he met NH in the casino in Aruba and he had access to a $5,000 line of credit (his father's) at the same casino. This in itself shows that he and his father thought they were 'above the law' (MOO).
 
newone said:
He was gambling underage when he met NH in the casino in Aruba and he had access to a $5,000 line of credit (his father's) at the same casino. This in itself shows that he and his father thought they were 'above the law' (MOO).
Click to expand...

I just cannot imagine as a mom allowing my child to have a line of credit to gamble in a casino...............
 
passionflower said:
It will be interesting to see why inmate #326390 despises women.
Yes he hates Beth H. and no regards for his victims, also looks like
mom also.
Wonder what his life was really like.
Why the separate living quarters within the home?
What age did they move him in his own quarters?
Where did he get the money to party, gamble while still in school?
Did inmate #326390 ever have rules? guidelines?
Was he a child handed money and adults said go play, get out of here?
Was he the golden boy to dad and mom that did disipline?
Was he just a spoiled brat like Scott P? KC?
What happened?
Click to expand...

Every human at a certain point knows right from wrong. His atrocities against others fall squarely on his shoulders and are his sole responsibility. Many people come from terrible environments and never hurt anyone or would think of doing so. He is now an adult and as such knows the moral rules of humanity. Don't kill is just too obvious to even mention.
To watch another person die at your hands, in such sick manner is an aberration of your own soul, is not just learned behavior or exposure to lack of love.
 
Joran's confession is probably incomplete and tailored both for his defense and his own psychological needs, but some of the speculation on the details of the fatal attack is premature. There is no indication of brain injury, for instance, and some of the bruising to other parts of the body might have been caused by the physical deterioriation of the body and its postmortem positions.
 
Kimmer:

Thank you for your welcome.

I found perhaps the most relevant parts of the confession as it pertains to my elbowing scenario.

Remember the translation is poor.


Q12. Do you get an object used to kill Stephany?
JVDS: - No
Q13. Specify where you have beaten her and how often.
JVDS: - I saw her only once beaten her nose with my right elbow.


Q24:. How do you explain the wounds in the face and several parts of the body and skull fracture noted during the autopsy?

JVDS:- “They sat on the bed when I gave her a hard elbow. I think her head back against the wall hit. Then she started to bleed. Then I immediately sat down on her and started to strangle her with two hands.”

And we must always remember, he is lying plenty in his "confession" and knows especially not to confess that this was a murder in furtherance of a robbery.

But if any of his confession is true, we can gather from the above, that she had severe skull and brain damage, and that he struck her only once with his right elbow. So my scenario likely has much truth in it, in that it was a massive blow, and not a glancing blow to the nose. Furthermore, I do not believe--and apparently neither do the Peruvian police--that it occurred as he says (sitting on the bed or such), else she would not have the massive skull and brian injuries.

And also I think they suspect too that it occurred while she resisted his robbery. The precise skull wounds will help prove (or disprove) my contention that she was held agianst a wall (or floor). I beleive if she has skull wounds in the back of her head it helps prove she was held against a wall or floor when the one near-fatal elbow blow to her face was delivered.
 
Bobarino said:
RE: The elbowing


Does anyone have any answers to one of the questions I posed above.
Is Joran known to have studied any martial arts?

Now I know he was good at sports. I evens aw how a quote from his mother has been incorrectly cited as "delicious sporter", when she said "fantastic sporter" [I saw the actual video interview] with "sporter" meaning sportsman. So we know he did tennis and futbol (soccer), but his use of the elbow to effctively kill her (severe brain damage IMO) is an indication that he studied martial arts.

So Arruba?

Thailand?

Thanks.
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He says he smothered her to death, after hitting her with the elbow, after strangling her, after some sort of undefined, obscure tussle...and god knows what else.

the first thing is, he is a liar and I don't believe anything he says. of course he is gonna tell the police he hit her with one foul swoop and that pretty much did it, and that he was provoked and did it out of a sudden rush of emotion. that sounds good for him.

i don't believe it, cause he said it. but even if it were true...he is 6'3" and 200 plus lbs...she was not. any big man hitting a woman, or another man for that matter, in the nose with his elbow is gonna cause considerable damage.
but then the strangling, the wrestling and the suffocating ensued. god knows what he actually did to her. but it doesn't take any knowledge of martial arts to kill a person that small if you are that big.

it happens a lot.

imo.
 
Bobarino said:
Hello websleuthers.

This is my very first post, though I’ve been reading on this recent, sad matter for a while here.

[I have written numerous things on several tangential subjects, but not on this precise genre. I have nothing to sell. Only trying to help sleuth with you here.]

On The Elbowing

If this has been brought up before, I apologize. I haven’t seen it.

OTOH, if it is a first for a public discussion, I hope it is referenced as such, and that it helps. And I trust the Peruvian forensic and medical people are considering the following matter.

Now when JVDS chooses to elaborate on something foul he did, two things are likely. 1. He is lying. 2. He is covering up something far worse that he perpetrated. In his confession, he states or implies that the two of them were sitting on the bed, or were near the bed, or such, when he struck her after she hit him first (not likely.) He is trying to say that he glancingly elbowed her in the nose, which then bled, and the media has gone with that.

But I think it is different and far worse. I think he first went into her by grabbing/jacking her up against a wall—probably when she dared to protest his attempted theft—possibly holding her by her throat with one hand, and then he proceeded to elbow her in the face. She may have first struggled to reach him with her hands, while being held by the throat against the wall. He also may have held her that way, demanding her PIN numbers or something else, and she said never, and just tried to reach him with her hands. Maybe she even managed to get in a mild blow to him at this point, in self-defense to what he started. (This scenario even allows this monster to state that she struck the first blow, as he was first holding her by her throat, and hadn’t yet struck her. But he had already assaulted her.)

Now being held up against the wall (or possibly on the floor), her head and body could not be forced through space when elbowed, and her skull and brain thus had to absorb the full force and momentum of the massive blow. If she were held against the wall, possibly the back of her skull was fractured there as well as the front, from the initial frontal elbow blow. Indeed he is lying when he says he doesn’t know how she got her massive skull injuries.

I think his elbow smashed her nose into her skull, shattering the skull, and caused massive brain injury. Her life, as she knew it before this point in time, alas was now over. Even if nothing else were done to her, her brain was likely severely damaged at this point, because it was not a glancing blow (as he falsely claims), but was as just described above—the skull smashing into the brain at the front and back. But this monster then saw 1. what was done to her face and 2., that she was still breathing, and he did not stop until she stopped breathing—which he admits to. (If there is truth to the matter of the eye, as was originally reported, his massive elbow blow to the face, accounts for that too.) He probably got more enraged after it started—“look what you made me do.” Always blaming the victim.

This also brings up the matter of possible martial arts training, as most people would not use their elbows as a weapon unless they studied some martial arts. Does anyone know if he did? Has this been asked before? Did he study this in Aruba? Or is it more likely that he studied this in Thailand, more recently—where such martial arts are more prevalent (Muy Thai and such)? And he then used his new knowledge at the first opportunity! And not as it was intended (defense against someone else’s deadly attack), but against an innocent woman, far smaller than he is. Obviously he is a danger to all around him, especially unsuspecting women. I think, Natalie probably did not get elbowed as the above conjecture indicates he may have learned that more recently. (OTOH, if someone has evidence if an earlier study of martial arts, then this conjecture may be wrong.) Natalie may have been strangled, as I think he first goes for the throat. But with Stephany, there will be massive evidence to indicate, maybe even prove, what was done to her—despite his lies and half-truths.

Well I hope this contributes. Thank you. Oh, and the above is only my opinion, though some science is implicit in it.
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See Bolded Above I totally agree with your description regarding Joran's attack on Stephanie. I watched Greta Van Sustren last night at the same hotel in an identical room. She was discussing what most likely happened in Joran's room. She knocked on the walls of the room and described how the room was built like a fortress. The room had concrete walls, not cheap drywall. If Stephanie's head was being held against the wall as you described, then the deadly force of an elbow to the nose would have driven her nose into her brain and her skull would have taken the full brunt of the hit because the wall would not have absorbed any of the blow. Again, very likely, just as you have described. Thanks for a great post.
 
I have not seen any comments or discussion here about the part in his confession where he says he had the taxi driver take him to a police station. In essence he is saying he turned himself in. I believe he did that out of fear.

He was afraid of the taxi drivers because he could not get enough money to pay them, and he had no way out of that country. He was like a trapped rat. The ride was 17 hours back, so he had lots of time to formulate his story. jmo
 
You are not likely (if at all possible) to have skull fracture without brain injury.
 
Bobarino said:
RE: The elbowing


Does anyone have any answers to one of the questions I posed above.
Is Joran known to have studied any martial arts?

Now I know he was good at sports. I evens aw how a quote from his mother has been incorrectly cited as "delicious sporter", when she said "fantastic sporter" [I saw the actual video interview] with "sporter" meaning sportsman. So we know he did tennis and futbol (soccer), but his use of the elbow to effctively kill her (severe brain damage IMO) is an indication that he studied martial arts.

So Arruba?

Thailand?

Thanks.
Click to expand...

I'll give an opinion here but with the caveat that the medical examiner/autopsy will prove a more accurate picture as to cause of death.

I am former Marine, trained in hand to hand combat and Viet vet. I hesitate talking about the forms of death a person can experience.

This is all IMO! To the question of was JVDS trained in martial arts? I'll say it's possible, I'll also say probably anyone who had a fascination with killing someone could learn in the privacy of their own home in a basement.

I am familiar with nose blows and they are more likely used to disable and not kill, although brain death could occur I'd expect it would take awhile. From what I read on the net it sounds like a very brutal undefended strike.

If it's true he choked her IMO that to me would be the more likely cause of death, due to the fact the air and blood supply is restricted. To me it's more likely she was brutally struck with something, elbow, blunt object etc. It won't surprise me if she was choked afterwards.

Really how she died is not as important to me as that "she is deceased" gone. It also appears from a distance JVDS is responsible. I think Peruvian police and the hotel with hidden cameras have done an excellent job of putting the crime together and IMO Castro Casto is the place JVDS deserves to be. Not for one second do I beleive JVDS is being set up. To feel for JVDS is to feel for the whole peruvian prison population. When in Rome, do as the Romans do..

PS, having said all that I want people to know, self defense training can teach someone how to break choke holds and grips from an attacker. It's not very difficult to do but I can't demonstrate it or describe it here. One must practice to become a believer.
 
Lonetraveller.

Thank you for your comment and for informing us about the concrete wall. I did not see that--don't have TV right now. It does lend credence to my elbowing scenario, and to the police trying to pin him down about the skull damage, because they know he is lying about how and where he elbowed her.
 
brazen said:
If so, a huge mistake. By the time he was arrested the evidence was already being made public, so he had to know the police strongly believed in his guilt.

I think he was advised to do this by someone - sort of like - if the police are looking for you, go to them; it will vouch for your innocence. Joe T-opicsomething - his US attorney said on one of the TV shows that if he realizes the police are looking for him, he should turn himself in.

Lawyers always give this advice in the US - I wonder if they are required to say this - but, it's not good advice to someone guilty, especially outside their home country.
Click to expand...

Thank you, brazen and Welcome to WSer's.
 
mck16 said:
I have not seen any comments or discussion here about the part in his confession where he says he had the taxi driver take him to a police station. In essence he is saying he turned himself in. I believe he did that out of fear.

He was afraid of the taxi drivers because he could not get enough money to pay them, and he had no way out of that country. He was like a trapped rat. The ride was 17 hours back, so he had lots of time to formulate his story. jmo
Click to expand...

Hi, MK16. According to his Netherlands lawyer, Joran called him to say that he intended to turn himself in. For whatever reason, that did not happen and the police arrested him while he was in the taxi.
 
mlefey said:
Every human at a certain point knows right from wrong. His atrocities against others fall squarely on his shoulders and are his sole responsibility. Many people come from terrible environments and never hurt anyone or would think of doing so. He is now an adult and as such knows the moral rules of humanity. Don't kill is just too obvious to even mention.
To watch another person die at your hands, in such sick manner is an aberration of your own soul, is not just learned behavior or exposure to lack of love.
Click to expand...

I believe that some people are just born evil, it doesn't matter how they are raised. I do believe the Van der Sloots were too permissive giving JVS his own apartment and a line of credit at the casino, etc, however I believe his evil started before that. Jossy Mansur the editor of El Diario newspaper in Aruba (and a long time supporter of the Holloways) was on TV last week and he is the one who said JVS once threw a man off the bridge. He said basically that Joran could be an ok person but when he was crossed he would have an uncontrollable temper. I believe many (including his family) were just plain afraid of him.

I did read a book a couple of months ago called the "Bad Seed" by William March. It basically is the story of a sweet looking little 8 year old girl who has absolutely no empathy for anyone. It turns out she is responsible for the death of three people - she pushes an old lady down the stairs cause she wants a piece of jewelry, drowns a little boy in her class because she wants a penmanship medal that she believes she deserved, and sets a sleeping drunk man on fire because he knew her secrets. The only other person who recognized her evil was her mother and the ending of the story tells how she deals with this. Warning: the book and movie both have different endings - the book is a little more intense. Anyway, I believe that JVS may just be a similar example. This of course in my opinion.
 
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