Peru - Stephany Flores, 21, murdered in Lima hotel room, 30 May 2010 #17

[Patty G]

I don't have the number of the post in front of me. I read it on a previous thread. It was when posters were talking about Jorans' violence as a child: killing his dog and throwing a homeless man off a bridge. I'll try to find it for you if someone else doesn't come up with it.

I said Joran should feel he helped kill his father because Anita said he went down hill after his father died because he felt he had caused it. This was from her first interview with the Dutch paper. Here is the link to the English version of the Dutch paper. www.dutchnews.nl

Right now I have to take my dear one out to breakfast. He has no human children but he couldn't be a better dad to our 2 Standard Poodles. After working all day, on his feet, he walks them 2 miles, then add the vet bills. So, he get cards and a Doggie-Dad Day. Those who aren't dog people can say ewww and all the dog people can say awww what a good guy.

Thank you.

I couldn't find a news media article indicating that Joran threw a homeless man off a bridge resulting in his death, and marked as the third person murdered by Joran.

I am also looking for the news media article that Joran killed his family dog.

 

[faw720]

songline... I have tremendous empathy for what you must have to deal with regarding your daughter. I'm assuming she's been formally diagnosed and, accordingly prescribed medications that help, if even in some small measure. It's clear that you have your child's best interest at heart. I'm sure (I hope!) that people understand that you're not at fault for her condition and that you're doing all you can possibly do to help her by seeking professional help and therapy plus medication. {hugs}

So far, I haven't seen the same with JVS. He has not been formally diagnosed or received treatment for any type of mental disorder, as far as I know. So, at this point, I can't use the MAYBE he has a mental disability excuse. If and when that occurs, I may change my current opinion.

:blowkiss:

Someone correct me if I'm wrong. I don't think there's any kind of mental treatment for either a sociopath or psychopath which is probably what Joran is.

 

[nervous_nellie]

Although I have posted very little on this, I have tried to read and watch every show, clicked on most links etc. I was put off on posting any opinions because I have been a little upset at some of the atmosphere of people seeming to relish the thought of JVS being tortured now that he is in prison. That's just me. I think he was guilty five years ago and was aided by his father, massive cover up, just like most everyone here. He has been getting progressively worse, evidently medical help was trying to be put in place. He didn't want help. In my opinion, he will be found guilty of any charges that Peru seeks to persue, he will not be medically treated for any mental conditions - he will try to adapt to the prison life there but will not live long. His mother (wisely I might add) is ready to let go of any help she can get for him, she really has no choice. I think that's what she means not that she is ready to give up any love she has as a mother. I will not grieve for him as my sympathy for the family and friends of the victims is much stronger - but I do not relish in what is in store for him, now or as he meets his Maker.

thank-you for this post. i DO NOT like the idea of him being tortured and possibly killed in this prison hell hole... i almost think he should be sent back to aruba but as we have seen in the past that they will not seek punishment for him for whatever reasons...so i dont know what options exist....

 

[songline]

songline... I have tremendous empathy for what you must have to deal with regarding your daughter. I'm assuming she's been formally diagnosed and, accordingly prescribed medications that help, if even in some small measure. It's clear that you have your child's best interest at heart. I'm sure (I hope!) that people understand that you're not at fault for her condition and that you're doing all you can possibly do to help her by seeking professional help and therapy plus medication. {hugs}

So far, I haven't seen the same with JVS. He has not been formally diagnosed or received treatment for any type of mental disorder, as far as I know. So, at this point, I can't use the MAYBE he has a mental disability excuse. If and when that occurs, I may change my current opinion.

:blowkiss:

I understand how you think too. My daughter is 45 and was only diagnosed 5 years ago, because it is not easy to diagnose someone who keeps running away from the Doctors.
Nor is it easy to do anything with your kids who are over 18 years of age because they do whatever they want. NO my daughter does not agree to take her meds, as is true with many ill people unfortunately.
That should tell you that maybe his mom could not get him diagnosed, or to take any meds.
thank you for understanding. I do realize that my views in this past year have been colored by my hardships. I do not know if h is ill or not. I see some signs however that he is sick, but a danger to community and must be incarcerated.
I do not think his mom has any control of any of it, but would like to get him meds rather then a knife in the back at this notoriously horrific prison. I think I would do the same.

 

[dolly1]

Although I have posted very little on this, I have tried to read and watch every show, clicked on most links etc. I was put off on posting any opinions because I have been a little upset at some of the atmosphere of people seeming to relish the thought of JVS being tortured now that he is in prison. That's just me. I think he was guilty five years ago and was aided by his father, massive cover up, just like most everyone here. He has been getting progressively worse, evidently medical help was trying to be put in place. He didn't want help. In my opinion, he will be found guilty of any charges that Peru seeks to persue, he will not be medically treated for any mental conditions - he will try to adapt to the prison life there but will not live long. His mother (wisely I might add) is ready to let go of any help she can get for him, she really has no choice. I think that's what she means not that she is ready to give up any love she has as a mother. I will not grieve for him as my sympathy for the family and friends of the victims is much stronger - but I do not relish in what is in store for him, now or as he meets his Maker.

You are correct, we should never come down to the criminals level and relish violence. Universal Law: Do nothing with malice.

 

[suzihawk]

Thank you.

I couldn't find a news media article indicating that Joran threw a homeless man off a bridge resulting in his death, and marked as the third person murdered by Joran.

I am also looking for the news media article that Joran killed his family dog.

I doubt you'll find either. First, he was a minor at the time so they probably wouldn't print his name and second, because the death of a dog would hardly be newsworthy, IMO.

I read and posted on another forum five years ago which had many members that were local to Aruba and knew or knew of the Vandersloot family. It's a very small island, after all. It seemed to be almost common knowledge amongst the locals that these acts did occur. Of course, that doesn't make them true. But it also doesn't make them untrue just because the news media didn't report them back then. They also didn't know then what they know now.

 

[TwiceIrish]

I couldn't agree more! The fact is we'll never know for certain why Joran did what he did and all this speculation does is fuel the already wild rumor mill. All the supposition about things like whether or not Stephany was gay or on her period and whether Joran suffered food allergies and the like being the reasoning for him committing this crime just muddies the water, IMO.

Amen.

Not to mention the repeated mention of conspiracy theories, etc. Had to take a step back from the thread and regroup.

 

[lorann]

thank-you for this post. i DO NOT like the idea of him being tortured and possibly killed in this prison hell hole... i almost think he should be sent back to aruba but as we have seen in the past that they will not seek punishment for him for whatever reasons...so i dont know what options exist....

I think he should stay in Peru, that is where this crime happened and he should be tried there. The world is watching all of this so I am confident that Peruvian law will apply. It is my opinion Aruba officials may go to question him but he will not be made to answer to any crime until his sentence in Peru is served. Aruba almost has to make this gesture at this time. I think nothing will happen concerning his extortion of money from the Holloways. JMO

 

[LiveLaughLuv]

various snippets from article below...

"Joran is sick in his head, but he wanted no help," Anita van der Slot said, breaking her silence on the case in an interview published Saturday in the Dutch daily newspaper De Telegraaf (The Telegraph).

"If he did this, he must bear the consequences. I can not embrace him," Anita van der Sloot said. She claims that her son was in recent years developed severe mental problems. " His departure to Peru was a flight to escape being committed to a clinic."

For years, she said, she believed Joran when he protested his innocence. "I felt he had nothing to do with the disappearance of Natalee Holloway in 2005. He had left her on the beach. I still believe that. " But, she also says: " Stephany, he may have killed."

She added that her son is not a monster. "He was a sweet boy who loved animals and his grandmother. Funny, open. He has gradually lost its way. It was insidious."

She said he blamed himself for his father's unexpected death earlier this year.

"Two days Joran cried. He even hung over the coffin, sobbing.

"It's my fault, Dad," he said. "I have caused your heart attack."

Afterward he moved in with his mother in Aruba. But then one day he left, flying to Peru for a poker tournament. Soon after, Flores was killed.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37802494/ns/world_news-americas/

"If he did this, he must bear the consequences. I can not embrace him," Anita van der Sloot said. She claims that her son was in recent years developed severe mental problems. " His departure to Peru was a flight to escape being committed to a clinic."

If Joran's mom truly feels this way, then I give her kudos for saying so.

I don't know Joran enough to say if he is mentally ill or not. What I do see is a predator, a narcisistic predator who seems to be spoiled rotten. His father, IMO was the enabler who was able to manipulate the Aruban authorites in relation to his arrest in Natalee's death/disappearance. If his father's death was the catalyst for his mind snapping, IMO, it's not enough for an insanity defense. He's a sexual predator who should have been stopped long ago. I have no sympathy at all for him.

Joran has no remorse, he's cold and calculating, he has anger issues and most likely a gambling addiction but this will not save him from a murder conviction. IMO, he, like OJ has Karma coming into play here...one might escape the law of the land but not the law of the universe. He will get what's coming to him, IMO...He has been tormenting the Holloway family for over 5 years..extorting money for information on Natalee's death. I do hope he will finally tell where he put Natalee so she can have a proper funeral/burial..JMHO

I also believe Arubian authories will delve deeper into Natalee's disappearance, Joran may want to play lets make a deal...hoping no one does!

JMHO

 

[Patty G]

I doubt you'll find either. First, he was a minor at the time so they probably wouldn't print his name and second, because the death of a dog would hardly be newsworthy, IMO.

I read and posted on another forum five years ago which had many members that were local to Aruba and knew or knew of the Vandersloot family. It's a very small island, after all. It seemed to be almost common knowledge amongst the locals that these acts did occur. Of course, that doesn't make them true. But it also doesn't make them untrue just because the news media didn't report them back then. They also didn't know then what they know now.

Did the other forum validate that the posters were actually from Aruba or was it assumed they were because they said they were?

 

[bhammom]

I hate that Anita is blaming Natalee for all Joran's problems, but we have to remember that she was in the Netherlands when Natalee disappeared. Anita's information on what happened was not first hand knowledge but was told to her by Paulus & Joran. It was just easier for Anita to go into denial than it was for her to accept that Joran had problems.

The fact that Anita was out of the country when Natalee disappeared is a good point. Also, does anyone remember at the time that Joran said "if my mother had been here none of this would have happened?" Perhaps she tried to keep a closer eye on him. It does show me though that the "'blame game" for Joran started long before Natalee. I wonder how much he tried to lay a guilt trip on AVS.

 

[twinkiesmom]

If you think Anita is just another of Joran's victims, then you need to do more research on this case...Read Beth or Dave's books....go on the internet and read the full 5 years with all the file transcripts, the confessions, media reports, etc..

IMO, this monster was made, not born this way.

I do not believe any word that comes out of Anita's mouth. If she is distancing herself from Joran, it is either because she is hiding the fact that she is trying to get him extradited to Netherlands or because she is afraid for her own safety going to Peru (or both).

Apart from the alleged GHB assaults, a 17-year-old boy with a line of credit at a casino will develop a gambling addiction. The gambling addiction (crossed with drugs) fueled a continuous need for money to support it. Stephany's fate was sealed that night when she won at poker...Joran did not have enough money to leave Peru or even pay his hotel bill.

If Joran had confessed and served time for the crimes against Natalee (short stay in the cushy Aruban jail), he may have had an opportunity to be rehabilitated...instead he went off on an international crime spree and murdered Stephany.

I have no sympathy for parents who enable criminal conduct by their children. (Per Paulus: No body, no crime).

 

[nervous_nellie]

various snippets from article below...


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37802494/ns/world_news-americas/


If Joran's mom truly feels this way, then I give her kudos for saying so.

I don't know Joran enough to say if he is mentally ill or not. What I do see is a predator, a narcisistic predator who seems to be spoiled rotten. His father, IMO was the enabler who was able to manipulate the Aruban authorites in relation to his arrest in Natalee's death/disappearance. If his father's death was the catalyst for his mind snapping, IMO, it's not enough for an insanity defense. He's a sexual predator who should have been stopped long ago. I have no sympathy at all for him.

Joran has no remorse, he's cold and calculating, he has anger issues and most likely a gambling addiction but this will not save him from a murder conviction. IMO, he, like OJ has Karma coming into play here...one might escape the law of the land but not the law of the universe. He will get what's coming to him, IMO...He has been tormenting the Holloway family for over 5 years..extorting money for information on Natalee's death. I do hope he will finally tell where he put Natalee so she can have a proper funeral/burial..JMHO

I also believe Arubian authories will delve deeper into Natalee's disappearance, Joran may want to play lets make a deal...hoping no one does!

JMHO

i wish that i believed that aruba was going to delve deeper... but i think there is big time cover up going on there and is still going on... and the law of the universe, lol, its karamageddon time for joran.... which given the circumstances is very very unfortunate for him. had aruba acted within the law jvds could be safely tucked in a prison there serving his time and stephany would still be happily playing poker in lima...but aruba broke a major law of the universe and the land to "help" jvds family(im assuming this is why they wouldnt charge jvds, i could be wrong) - and now look how their "help" has turned out... sad. its best to just take your lumps no matter how inconvenient it may seem at the time and even if you have the power to wriggle free...

 

[suzihawk]

Did the other forum validate that the posters were actually from Aruba or was it assumed they were because they said they were?

I don't know the answer to that, Patty. They seemed very knowledable regarding the island itself and the various players involved, including the authorities. I had no reason to doubt them.

 

[Patty G]

I don't know the answer to that, Patty. They seemed very knowledable regarding the island itself and the various players involved, including the authorities. I had no reason to doubt them.

Thank you. Unfortunately posters can be whoever they want to be on message boards. Thankfully, here at WS, if someone claims they are from the area, it can be verified to at least put the WS members at ease. :crazy:

 

[nosysw]

Teachers are not doctors, and some ailments do not get diagnosed till late. Just the way it is with Bipolar and other such ailments.

While it is true that teachers are not doctors, they are the people who, in many cases, spend more time with children than their parents do. As someone who provides mental health services in schools, teachers are the ones who identify children with "possible" mental health issues to me. No, they cannot diagnose them but they should be trained to identify potential issues. And after dealing with hundreds and hundreds of children they are pretty dead on in their suspicions generally.

That being said, I have worked with too many parents in denial to not understand where her denial is coming from. In my experience parents of children like this also hear over and over from others that something is wrong that they need to open their eyes to. So as a parent, and a teacher, she could have had more ability to differentiate his behavior from that of "normal" children which he does not seem to have been by any report.

I'm not sure what Joran's educational history was. Was he in private schools where there might be a different threshold for acceptable behavior as enrollment is tied to a lot of money (and in his case an influential family)? Had he been expelled from any educational institutions- which would be very telling and a HUGE red flag for the family early on?...

 

[annalia]

I don't know the law in Peru regarding an insanity defense but in the US doesn't it mean that the criminal could not differentiate between right and wrong?

Joran's actions after the fact shows that he knew right from wrong.

 

[nosysw]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong. I don't think there's any kind of mental treatment for either a sociopath or psychopath which is probably what Joran is.

This has been a long held theory. Of course, clinicians and researchers will continue to attempt to find some type of effective treatment. At this time, I don't know of any validated research that shows positive, long-term results that has been utilized for large populations although I've seen isolated reported positive treatment studies. Would love to receive current info on this if anyone has sources...

ETA: FWIW, sociopath and psychopath are terms for the same thing...

 

[FLNY]

so, i just heard on msnbc news commercial that anita vds is now saying that jvds went to peru to avoid being sent to a mental institution... anyone heard this? the only thing i have read is this article http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/joran-van-der-sloots-mother-son-stephany-flores/story?id=10961460 im gonna read it again, i dont think i saw that in there anywhere???

Anita spoke to the Dutch press on Friday. I've posted links to all the Dutch and American articles in the media thread Message #113:

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5312702#post5312702"]Stephany Flores Ramirez Media Links and Images **NO DISCUSSION** - Page 5 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

 

[faw720]

If you think Anita is just another of Joran's victims, then you need to do more research on this case...Read Beth or Dave's books....go on the internet and read the full 5 years with all the file transcripts, the confessions, media reports, etc..

IMO, this monster was made, not born this way.

I do not believe any word that comes out of Anita's mouth. If she is distancing herself from Joran, it is either because she is hiding the fact that she is trying to get him extradited to Netherlands or because she is afraid for her own safety going to Peru (or both).

Apart from the alleged GHB assaults, a 17-year-old boy with a line of credit at a casino will develop a gambling addiction. The gambling addiction (crossed with drugs) fueled a continuous need for money to support it. Stephany's fate was sealed that night when she won at poker...Joran did not have enough money to leave Peru or even pay his hotel bill.

If Joran had confessed and served time for the crimes against Natalee (short stay in the cushy Aruban jail), he may have had an opportunity to be rehabilitated...instead he went off on an international crime spree and murdered Stephany.

I have no sympathy for parents who enable criminal conduct by their children. (Per Paulus: No body, no crime).

I honestly don't know what I think about Anita. If I seemed sympathetic to her, it was only because I was tossing out an idea. Maybe I was just trying to find some humanity in that family. IMO, if she truly is ready to "let Joran go", she's taken a step in the right direction. Don't think that would be the case if Paulus were still around. Somehow I have the idea that in Dutch families the father is the dominant person. Rotterdam, is this true?