Forensic Botany

[whiteangora]

I am a little perplexed by what appear to be discrepancies in the docs. In my post above #138 it is noted that botanicals were found in a trash bag. These items were tested by Hall and Vass. In the recent doc dump there is a bench note stating botanicals were found in a trash bag.

page 254 http://www.clickorlando.com/download/2010/0521/23631365.pdf

However, the list of items found in the trash bag does not have plant material or botanicals listed.

The list is on page 23 and 24 of this document: http://blogs.discovery.com/files/18...overy.com/files/18530237.pdf&ecid=AFF-7975437


When going back and looking at the initial processing this information is found:

Page 9 http://blogs.discovery.com/files/18...overy.com/files/18530237.pdf&ecid=AFF-7975437

Note the New York tag #.

Yet in the doc dumped recently it has this information on pages 48 and 99:

http://www.clickorlando.com/download/2010/0521/23631365.pdf

Note the Florida tag# for Casey's Pontiac.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

It makes sense that plant material would adhere to the chassis of a vehicle if parked in an area with tall grass but whose vehicle had the botanical material on their chassis? It is difficult to tell from the information in the documents.

Photos of Suburban Drive:

http://www.foxnews.com/images/478761/0_63_320_121108_greta_caylee_scene.jpg

photos #10, 11 and 12

http://www.wesh.com/slideshow/news/18311691/detail.html

Was the plant material found in the trash bag, on Tony's vehicle or Casey's vehicle? :waitasec:

I hope there's a logical explanation for this, otherwise the defense will be all over it. Very confusing to say the least.

 

[Harmony 2]

I hope there's a logical explanation for this, otherwise the defense will be all over it. Very confusing to say the least.

I was hoping someone would post an explanation citing information I may have missed.

 

[beach]

It is confusing. :waitasec:


I'm thinking the plant material was found on Tony's Jeep and the yellow evidence envelopes were incorrectly flagged with the Pontiac's FL tag #. I can't tell you why I think that because it just comes from my memory of reading docs, thread discussions, etc.... I could have misinterpreted, so it isn't worth a penny more than my :twocents: IF that is correct, not so good. However, these people are human and errors happen. I imagine they typed that Pontiac tag # umpteen times and I can see how it could occur. I recall reading somewhere else about plant material being found in the trash bags, too. So, I think maybe they recovered some from both the trash bag and the Jeep. I don't recall seeing if the two were found to be related.

All of the above is simply my guess. You are the first to point out to me that the tag#'s don't match. Very puzzling to say the least.


I hope someone that remembers more will chime in and help clear it up.

 

[thedeviledadvocate]

I am a little perplexed by what appear to be discrepancies in the docs. In my post above #138 it is noted that botanicals were found in a trash bag. These items were tested by Hall and Vass. In the recent doc dump there is a bench note stating botanicals were found in a trash bag.

page 254 http://www.clickorlando.com/download/2010/0521/23631365.pdf

However, the list of items found in the trash bag does not have plant material or botanicals listed.

The list is on page 23 and 24 of this document: http://blogs.discovery.com/files/18...overy.com/files/18530237.pdf&ecid=AFF-7975437


When going back and looking at the initial processing this information is found:

Page 9 http://blogs.discovery.com/files/18...overy.com/files/18530237.pdf&ecid=AFF-7975437

Note the New York tag #.

Yet in the doc dumped recently it has this information on pages 48 and 99:

http://www.clickorlando.com/download/2010/0521/23631365.pdf

Note the Florida tag# for Casey's Pontiac.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

It makes sense that plant material would adhere to the chassis of a vehicle if parked in an area with tall grass but whose vehicle had the botanical material on their chassis? It is difficult to tell from the information in the documents.

Photos of Suburban Drive:

http://www.foxnews.com/images/478761/0_63_320_121108_greta_caylee_scene.jpg

photos #10, 11 and 12

http://www.wesh.com/slideshow/news/18311691/detail.html

Was the plant material found in the trash bag, on Tony's vehicle or Casey's vehicle? :waitasec:

On page 10454 of the doc with Dr. Haskell's results, Item 6b has plant material from off the paper towels, since the two items from Tony's vehicle were in separate envelopes, and not at all with the paper towels, I would guess that the white trash bag had plant material unrelated to what was found on tony's vehicle. moo

 

[notthatsmart]

Plant material makes a lot of sense on a napkin. You know like a salad, turkey bacon lettuce cheese wrap type of thing. Napkins are used to wipe up, mouth, fingers, table.

Plant material on a frame of a vehicle would be common, especially a jeep. IMO

 

[RR0004]

Is this the same napkin that had the adipocere?

 

[Harmony 2]

On page 10454 of the doc with Dr. Haskell's results, Item 6b has plant material from off the paper towels, since the two items from Tony's vehicle were in separate envelopes, and not at all with the paper towels, I would guess that the white trash bag had plant material unrelated to what was found on tony's vehicle. moo

I had seen that and had it posted in my #138 post above. I am still very confused about it. Plant material is not listed with the items found in the trash bag. It is not referenced when items were initially processed. In fact, it is not mentioned on page 43 when Dr. Haskell came to the OCSO forensic garage to look at the items in the trash bag and at the vehicle. Moreover, the botanicals were not mentioned when the paper towels were processed by Dr. Vass. THC and Cannibonol are cited as being on the paper towels. The only time any plant material was listed, in the initial processing of evidence, was in reference to Tony's vehicle.

(Note: DA- I was lazy, does that look familiar... LOL)

 

[Harmony 2]

Is this the same napkin that had the adipocere?

Yes it is...

 

[RR0004]

I had seen that and had it posted in my #138 post above. I am still very confused about it. Plant material is not listed with the items found in the trash bag. It is not referenced when items were initially processed. In fact, it is not mentioned on page 43 when Dr. Haskell came to the OCSO forensic garage to look at the items in the trash bag and at the vehicle. Moreover, the botanicals were not mentioned when the paper towels were processed by Dr. Vass. THC and Cannibonol are cited as being on the paper towels. The only time any plant material was listed, in the initial processing of evidence, was in reference to Tony's vehicle.

(Note: DA- I was lazy, does that look familiar... LOL)

Thanks, Harmony2. I'm going to be lazy myself...does it say specifically when referring to the trash bag that it was the one that was retrieved from the dumpster?
TIA

ETA: Oh, I see from the post above that it must have been.

 

[Harmony 2]

Plant material makes a lot of sense on a napkin. You know like a salad, turkey bacon lettuce cheese wrap type of thing. Napkins are used to wipe up, mouth, fingers, table.

Plant material on a frame of a vehicle would be common, especially a jeep. IMO

According to Dr. Vass' Email the botanical products came from a "shallow marshy area with decaying vegetation" (look at my post #138). Lettuce is not grown in an area like that.

Thanks, Harmony2. I'm going to be lazy myself...does it say specifically when referring to the trash bag that it was the one that was retrieved from the dumpster?
TIA

ETA: Oh, I see from the post above that it must have been.

Yes the docs are referring to the white trash bag (from Tony's apartment) that George and SB saw in the trunk of Casey's vehicle and was later retrieved from the dumpster.

 

[Aedrys]

Plant material makes a lot of sense on a napkin. You know like a salad, turkey bacon lettuce cheese wrap type of thing. Napkins are used to wipe up, mouth, fingers, table.

Plant material on a frame of a vehicle would be common, especially a jeep. IMO

Common, yes, but I've also seen people get convicted from plant material sticking to their car or their shoes, or even botanicals from a trunk matching the dump site. Yes it's common, but it can also be unique enough to tie someone to a crime scene. If plant material from the dump site somehow got into the trunk, and then someone wiped up that plant material with a napkin, that could be very important to the case. Also, if plant material was found anywhere on the car or the soles of a pair of shoes or was on clothes, and it came from the dump site, that could be important to the case too. Or if plant material from the A's backyard got into the trunk via the shovel, and then was either left there or wiped up by that napkin, that could also be very important. There's one case I know of where leaves in a truck bed tied a guy to a crime scene. Unfortunately, the hurricane probably took care of stuff like that for this case, but you never know...I just wouldn't write it off as common and not important.

 

[Nore]

Plant material makes a lot of sense on a napkin. You know like a salad, turkey bacon lettuce cheese wrap type of thing. Napkins are used to wipe up, mouth, fingers, table.

Plant material on a frame of a vehicle would be common, especially a jeep. IMO

-----------
They have a lot of dirt,scrapings etc.from the Pontiac. It is all listed in the Docs..

P.S.They also found stains on someof KC.s clothes.I spent last evening rereading Docs from the FBI.

 

[ynotdivein]

bump for all the actual and potential forensic botanists out there...

 

[sarah7855]

I was reading the skeletal examination report again this morning, and, for the first time, really focused on the plant growth associated with Caylee's skeleton. I've read this report a handful of times, but hadn't really focused on the amount of plant growth before. It's interesting to read, because with this much plant growth, I don't know how the defense can say that Caylee's body was moved to the remains site while Casey was in jail. Obviously, with the extent of plant growth, Caylee's poor little skeleton had been in the same exact location for some time-long enough for this much root growth to take place. Here's a summary in the order that the information appears in the report:

• There were roots growing through the vertebrae
• roots growing on the surface of the laundry bag
• "multiple" roots growing through the two trash bags (one of these roots was at least 10cm in length and "completely extends through the bag")
• "multiple fine roots growing completely through the blanket"
• "rootlets" and "long, thin roots" attached to the recovered pieces of pull up diaper
• "multiple roots" growing through the hair mat (another portion of this report states that "plant roots have grown into and over the surface of the hair mat", and that "plant roots permeate the surface of the hair mat"

I'm sure this info has been posted previously, but sometimes it helps to look at it again, even if just to remind myself that Casey truly is facing a mountain of evidence, and IMO, the forensic botany is a key piece of that mountain.


ETA: Along the same lines of Caylee's remains being in the same spot, it is interesting to note that in this report (page 2):
http://www.wftv.com/pdf/18740668/detail.html

it states that while there was still some hair attached to the skull which had formed a mat, the remainder of the hair had fallen out and surrounded the skull on the ground. Indicates to me that the skull had been in that same position for some time...

 

[Nore]

I was reading the skeletal examination report again this morning, and, for the first time, really focused on the plant growth associated with Caylee's skeleton. I've read this report a handful of times, but hadn't really focused on the amount of plant growth before. It's interesting to read, because with this much plant growth, I don't know how the defense can say that Caylee's body was moved to the remains site while Casey was in jail. Obviously, with the extent of plant growth, Caylee's poor little skeleton had been in the same exact location for some time-long enough for this much root growth to take place. Here's a summary in the order that the information appears in the report:

• There were roots growing through the vertebrae
• roots growing on the surface of the laundry bag
• "multiple" roots growing through the two trash bags (one of these roots was at least 10cm in length and "completely extends through the bag")
• "multiple fine roots growing completely through the blanket"
• "rootlets" and "long, thin roots" attached to the recovered pieces of pull up diaper
• "multiple roots" growing through the hair mat (another portion of this report states that "plant roots have grown into and over the surface of the hair mat", and that "plant roots permeate the surface of the hair mat"

I'm sure this info has been posted previously, but sometimes it helps to look at it again, even if just to remind myself that Casey truly is facing a mountain of evidence, and IMO, the forensic botany is a key piece of that mountain.


ETA: Along the same lines of Caylee's remains being in the same spot, it is interesting to note that in this report (page 2):
http://www.wftv.com/pdf/18740668/detail.html

it states that while there was still some hair attached to the skull which had formed a mat, the remainder of the hair had fallen out and surrounded the skull on the ground. Indicates to me that the skull had been in that same position for some time...

------------------------
You are right on! also the coroner said it appeared the body had been there since June or July. Dr.G. does not lie,just tells it like it is. This was said in judging from the plant growth.

 

[Harmony 2]

I am a little perplexed by what appear to be discrepancies in the docs. In my post above #138 it is noted that botanicals were found in a trash bag. These items were tested by Hall and Vass. In the recent doc dump there is a bench note stating botanicals were found in a trash bag.

page 254 http://www.clickorlando.com/download/2010/0521/23631365.pdf

However, the list of items found in the trash bag does not have plant material or botanicals listed.

The list is on page 23 and 24 of this document: http://blogs.discovery.com/files/18...overy.com/files/18530237.pdf&ecid=AFF-7975437


When going back and looking at the initial processing this information is found:

Page 9 http://blogs.discovery.com/files/18...overy.com/files/18530237.pdf&ecid=AFF-7975437

Note the New York tag #.

Yet in the doc dumped recently it has this information on pages 48 and 99:

http://www.clickorlando.com/download/2010/0521/23631365.pdf

Note the Florida tag# for Casey's Pontiac.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

It makes sense that plant material would adhere to the chassis of a vehicle if parked in an area with tall grass but whose vehicle had the botanical material on their chassis? It is difficult to tell from the information in the documents.

Photos of Suburban Drive:

http://www.foxnews.com/images/478761/0_63_320_121108_greta_caylee_scene.jpg

photos #10, 11 and 12

http://www.wesh.com/slideshow/news/18311691/detail.html

Was the plant material found in the trash bag, on Tony's vehicle or Casey's vehicle? :waitasec:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I was reading Dr. Bock's deposition and I found the following statements interesting as they tie into the information I posted in my quote above...

http://www.wftv.com/pdf/27085544/detail.html

page 54

page 55

page 57

 

[mobius99]

Harmony2, I'm not sure what you are implying, but it's fascinating! Please break it down for me. TIA

 

[Harmony 2]

Harmony2, I'm not sure what you are implying, but it's fascinating! Please break it down for me. TIA

:greetings: Welcome to WS!!

Sorry for my rambling posts which may have you doing this :waitasec: and/or this

It might help to read this single post first as background:


[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4884233&postcount=138"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Forensic Botany[/ame]


The bottom line is that botanical material was found as evidence that IMO ties Casey to the remains site. However, there are discrepancies in the documents as to where the botanical products were found (trash bag in her trunk, chassis of her vehicle, or chassis of Tony's vehicle).

The defenses' own witness, Dr. Bock, stated that recovering botanical evidence from vehicles is a particular interest of hers. Moreover, that she can site many cases where botanical evidence tied the suspect to a crime scene. I thought that was ironic...

Hope that helps, maybe not :crazy:

I look forward to reading your insights and posts :seeya:

 

[LiveLaughLuv]

<<<<article snipped for content>>>>>


Earlier Monday, the defense team filed legal memos challenging the prosecution's positions on scientific evidence in the case.

The defense team is attacking one state witness, a botany expert, who is being used to help date the time Caylee's body was left in the wooded locations where her remains were found in December 2008.

The motion filed by defense attorney Dorothy Clay Sims says the state expert's "science is not legitimate, his methodology unscientific and experiment incomplete, not peer reviewed, his error rate unknown and his conclusions unscientific."

Sims is asking for a special hearing to "more fully advise the court as to why his conclusions should be inadmissible."

Sims' motion goes as far to suggest that the prosecution withdraw Dr. David Hall, the botanist, as a witness before that hearing is scheduled.

"It is the hope…after re-reading Dr. Hall's deposition the state would consider withdrawing him as an expert and thus remove the need for a hearing as [to] whether his testimony is admissible," Sims wrote.

The defense, through attorney Sims, is also challenging the prosecution's use of a device to detect "trace or unmeasured amounts of Chloroform" inside the trunk of Casey Anthony's vehicle. Again, the defense wants a special hearing, dealing with new or novel areas of science, to argue against this evidence from being used at trial based on the device.

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/lo...-monday-hearing-20110307,0,4336683,full.story


Wow, this Sims person has some pair to want to disquality the states expert botanist...he's more of an expert than she is...Where do they get the nerve?

JMHO

Justice for Caylee

 

[watergirl]

I hope there's a logical explanation for this, otherwise the defense will be all over it. Very confusing to say the least.

The same driver following the same route (once in one car and again in the other) could account for similar plant evidence collected from equivalent areas on different cars? If the vegetation is high, the variety in clearance of the vehicles may not matter. fwiw. *shrug*

ETA: anytime i do field work (hydrogeology), whatever vehicle i used is typically loaded with plants and soils from the site. its next to impossible to keep plants, soils, drilling mud, water sample ephemera and particulates out of the vehicle. I hate to trash rentals but its really difficult to keep the site out of and off of the vehicle.