Break in @ Tony L's Apartment

[magic-cat]

Clearly we could go back and forth on these issues all day. If Casey made a statement tomorrow that she killed Caylee, someone could say "How do we KNOW that's true? She's lied before." The legal standard is "beyond a reasonable doubt" not "beyond a shadow of a doubt." Could aliens have come and taken Caylee? Well, yes. We can not completely discount that theory because we don't know if there are aliens or not; But is it really reasonable to think that's what happened? It is just NOT true that KC had no history of neglecting Caylee (her friends have talked about KC taking her to adult parties and leaving her unattended while "in another room" with TonE --balcony incident). If you argue that her friends might be lying about that, how can you accept when they say something exculpatory as "proof" (that they never witnessed physical abuse, and had a "loving, normal attachment to Caylee," for instance)? If your point is that we will never know 100% that KC did it because the world has pedophiles and secret agents and drug cartels and evil nannies and possibly aliens, then I concede. You often post that "It has not been proven in court." When KC is convicted ,(yes, I said WHEN not if) will you accept her guilt or still insist it wasn't "proven?" Can you give an example of what would prove to you that KC is guilty?
If a parent hears a loud noise, goes upstairs to find his/her child holding a hammer and there is a hole in the wall, it is reasonable to think the child has just put a hole in the wall with that hammer. Do we know it 100%? Nope! The evil neighbor child could have done it and escaped out the window before the parent got there. Look at the polls on this forum and you will see that the overwhelming majority draw the reasonable conclusion that KC is standing in front of the hole in the wall with a hammer in her hand.

Bravo! I agree that this post states the case of reasonable doubt explicitly and sums it up in a nutshell. Just like when it snows overnight while we are asleep. We did not see it snow, but we do see the covering of snow upon the ground and so it is a reasonable assumption that it snowed while we slept. There is every reason to believe that Casey is guilty of taking her own child's life and no reason to to believe that she didn't. Like footprints in the snow, she left a trail.

 

[Just Jayla]

Thanks, MTG.

I remember being sooo frustrated that Greta & Clint couldn't get their dates & days-of-the-week straight when this was released. Drove me nutz!

Here's the snip FWIW:

"VAN SUSTEREN: So you moved out July 1. Between July 1 and July 14, did you have any contact with Casey?

HOUSE: No, ma'am.

VAN SUSTEREN: Did you talk to her?

HOUSE: No, ma'am.

VAN SUSTEREN: Was she going to that bar, the one where you were a DJ?

HOUSE: I stopped. I stopped doing the Friday nights with them at the end of June.

VAN SUSTEREN: Did you see Tony at all during that period between July 1 and July 15?

HOUSE: No, I did not.

VAN SUSTEREN: Did you talk to him on the phone?

HOUSE: No, I did not.

VAN SUSTEREN: Why did you move out?

HOUSE: I needed my own place to stay. I was kind of staying at Tony's place for free. And I needed my own apartment, and I didn't want to really, you know, leach off of Tony. And so I needed my own place to go, and I found a place to live, so I moved"​

I didn't provide the durations for the calls between the two...so...for completeness sake, the only thing that would be in slight conflict w/ Clint's statement is the 1minute call on 7/2 @ 5:06PM.

I dunno what the timing of Cameron being @ the apartment was, but, if the break-in occurred after 7/1, well, we know that Casey prolly established that the apartment was empty then if she knew Cameron's whereabouts...or if he was already gone. IF the break-in was post-7/1, and the report was that one of Tony's roommates money was taken, then, someone else had to still be living in the apartment...otherwise...it was pre-7/1, and I don't recall Clint ever bringing it up. Then again, there was likely a circle of people that knew the apartment was gonna be empty if it was...so Casey could be on the short-list of POI's.

Or maybe the break-in happened on July 1st in the wee hours of the morning...then, KC proceeded to go on over to JG's house for a shower, making sure to mention to him that she cannot get into TL's apartment. Cover story?

 

[TallyHo]

That's possible. That whole "break in story" reminds me of something I (re)read the other day in the Gas Can thread - George saying that the homeowners association told him that there had been several gas thefts in the neighborhood .

 

[Just Jayla]

That's possible. That whole "break in story" reminds me of something I (re)read the other day in the Gas Can thread - George saying that the homeowners association told him that there had been several gas thefts in the neighborhood .

That actually makes sense, as gas prices were sky high at the time.
My grandmother is in Flagler Co. FL, said the same about her neighborhood.

 

[seagull65]

remind me guys, TL said to Lee in the wired conversation in the car that "our drug dealer" (iirc) had had money stolen from him or had a break in, right? And Tony implied that Casey had been talking about having money after that etc. Was that CRH or was there a second person who had had money stolen?

 

[chefmom]

That actually makes sense, as gas prices were sky high at the time.
My grandmother is in Flagler Co. FL, said the same about her neighborhood.

Hmm! :waitasec: Is Flagler Co. anywhere near Hopesprings Dr.? :innocent:



:floorlaugh:

 

[LolaMoon08]

remind me guys, TL said to Lee in the wired conversation in the car that "our drug dealer" (iirc) had had money stolen from him or had a break in, right? And Tony implied that Casey had been talking about having money after that etc. Was that CRH or was there a second person who had had money stolen?

I'm going to have to go back and watch that because I don't remember anything about money being stolen from a drug dealer? Are you saying that a drug dealer killed Caylee because Casey stole money from him? Why wouldn't he just kill Casey?

 

[LolaMoon08]

I'm going to have to go back and watch that because I don't remember anything about money being stolen from a drug dealer? Are you saying that a drug dealer killed Caylee because Casey stole money from him? Why wouldn't he just kill Casey?

Sorry to quote myself.. but I have been listening to the Tony/Lee undercover tape and Tony does say the guy he bought weed from... his apartment was broken into (don't know the name?) and money was stolen. Someone came through the window and left through the front door.

Does anyone really see Casey breaking and entering? I don't know? She could have, but even if she did... how would this big bad "weed dealer" know if was Casey?

 

[Kentjbkent]

Clearly we could go back and forth on these issues all day. If Casey made a statement tomorrow that she killed Caylee, someone could say "How do we KNOW that's true? She's lied before." The legal standard is "beyond a reasonable doubt" not "beyond a shadow of a doubt." Could aliens have come and taken Caylee? Well, yes. We can not completely discount that theory because we don't know if there are aliens or not; But is it really reasonable to think that's what happened? It is just NOT true that KC had no history of neglecting Caylee (her friends have talked about KC taking her to adult parties and leaving her unattended while "in another room" with TonE --balcony incident). If you argue that her friends might be lying about that, how can you accept when they say something exculpatory as "proof" (that they never witnessed physical abuse, and had a "loving, normal attachment to Caylee," for instance)? If your point is that we will never know 100% that KC did it because the world has pedophiles and secret agents and drug cartels and evil nannies and possibly aliens, then I concede. You often post that "It has not been proven in court." When KC is convicted ,(yes, I said WHEN not if) will you accept her guilt or still insist it wasn't "proven?" Can you give an example of what would prove to you that KC is guilty?
If a parent hears a loud noise, goes upstairs to find his/her child holding a hammer and there is a hole in the wall, it is reasonable to think the child has just put a hole in the wall with that hammer. Do we know it 100%? Nope! The evil neighbor child could have done it and escaped out the window before the parent got there. Look at the polls on this forum and you will see that the overwhelming majority draw the reasonable conclusion that KC is standing in front of the hole in the wall with a hammer in her hand.

As many others have stated, EXCELLENT POST! :woohoo:

But for me personally, at this point, I have absolutely no doubt who is responsible for the death of Caylee.

I was the great debater in high school, and do have to say that I have the ability to stand on either side of the fence and present a logical, reasonable argument IF I am provided with at least ONE logical, reasonable fact to support my argument. (I missed my calling...I would have been great in a courtroom! :floorlaugh:

In THIS case, I have YET to find even ONE reasonable, logical FACT to run with to give myself cause to consider that maybe ICA was NOT responsible....NOT ONE SINGLE "ah ha...." fact!

No reasonable doubt...NADA evidence of SODDI...

CONVICTION! :great:

 

[LambChop]

I'm going to have to go back and watch that because I don't remember anything about money being stolen from a drug dealer? Are you saying that a drug dealer killed Caylee because Casey stole money from him? Why wouldn't he just kill Casey?

And wasn't the break in after Caylee went missing or prior to having met KC?

 

[Just Jayla]

And wasn't the break in after Caylee went missing or prior to having met KC?

I remember this happened, or so TL said-And IIRC it was after Caylee was killed because I think TL introduced KC to the guy when he went by to re-up. Hope I am not just making this stuff up!

 

[LolaMoon08]

I know that this may not be really popular opinion... but a lot of college kids smoke weed... so what? I never understood what the big deal was with Tony L. smoking weed? Willie Nelson is still hitting the ganja and people love him for it. It is what it is.

 

[Intermezzo]

And wasn't the break in after Caylee went missing or prior to having met KC?

I thought the break in was after Caylee went missing, too.
I thought the break in was while TL was in NY?
Didn't one of TL's friends who was staying there temporarily move out during this time as well?

Does someone remember and have a link?

 

[Amster]

I know that this may not be really popular opinion... but a lot of college kids smoke weed... so what? I never understood what the big deal was with Tony L. smoking weed? Willie Nelson is still hitting the ganja and people love him for it. It is what it is.

Willie has the money to hire lawyers, pay fines, etc. Most college kids don't. It is what it is and right now, it's illegal.

 

[marspiter]

I'm going to have to go back and watch that because I don't remember anything about money being stolen from a drug dealer? Are you saying that a drug dealer killed Caylee because Casey stole money from him? Why wouldn't he just kill Casey?

Yeah I'll have to go back and watch that but I don't recall anything about a drug dealer in that conversation with Lee. I assume seagull is talking about the conversation were TL was wired for LE in his convo with Lee.

 

[Intermezzo]

I thought the break in was after Caylee went missing, too.
I thought the break in was while TL was in NY?
Didn't one of TL's friends who was staying there temporarily move out during this time as well?

Does someone remember and have a link?

Monday June 30th
TL left for NY on June 30th and returned on July 5th Casey is driving his Jeep but is not allowed to stay at his apartment. I guess she only had the keys to the Jeep and not to the apartment.
Casey picks up Amy and they go to Target to by a gas can
Casey spends the night in the Bithlo area.
the rest of the time, while TL was gone, Amy said Casey stayed with her (Ricardo and JP)and during this time Amy's $400 went missing.

July 1, 2008
TL's friend Clint H moves out of the apartment
Where was Cameron during this timeframe? could the apartment have been empty for a few days.

I remember reading from TL's interview that Cameron was also away during this timeframe...because TL used Cameron's vacay to determine the timeline of his own trip to NY

BJB
..and just for grins...I did a VERY quick scan of Casey's cell pings 7/1-7/4.

Casey pinged near Tony's apartment for the mid-morning 7/1 and again in the afternoon 7/1. Looks like just before & after she went to Jesse's for a shower

Found an investigative summary of Lee's and TL's recorded wire tap conversation
www.wesh.com/download/2009/0305/18861873.pdf

Lee told TL Casey went to shower at Jesse's because she did not have access to his apartment
Lee then asked TL about a burglary at his apartment.
Entry was gained by breaking a window and the violator exited using the front door
Money was stolen.
-------------------------------------
There was not mention of the Date of the burglary..I assume it was while TL was away.
During the time TL was away in NY Casey went to Target, JCPenny, got her nails done, put gas in TL's Jeep, took the Jeep to a carwash, went out to clubs with friends, and got a Tattoo during this time..and whatever else she did that she needed to pay for.
IMO she needed more than the $400 she IMO stole from Amy...

 

[Just Jayla]

I thought the break in was after Caylee went missing, too.
I thought the break in was while TL was in NY?
Didn't one of TL's friends who was staying there temporarily move out during this time as well?

Does someone remember and have a link?

Monday June 30th
TL left for NY on June 30th and returned on July 5th Casey is driving his Jeep but is not allowed to stay at his apartment. I guess she only had the keys to the Jeep and not to the apartment.
Casey picks up Amy and they go to Target to by a gas can
Casey spends the night in the Bithlo area.
the rest of the time, while TL was gone, Amy said Casey stayed with her (Ricardo and JP)and during this time Amy's $400 went missing.

July 1, 2008
TL's friend Clint H moves out of the apartment
Where was Cameron during this timeframe? could the apartment have been empty for a few days.

I remember reading from TL's interview that Cameron was also away during this timeframe...because TL used Cameron's vacay to determine the timeline of his own trip to NY




Found an investigative summary of Lee's and TL's recorded wire tap conversation
www.wesh.com/download/2009/0305/18861873.pdf

Lee told TL Casey went to shower at Jesse's because she did not have access to his apartment
Lee then asked TL about a burglary at his apartment.
Entry was gained by breaking a window and the violator exited using the front door
Money was stolen.
-------------------------------------
There was not mention of the Date of the burglary..I assume it was while TL was away.
During the time TL was away in NY Casey went to Target, JCPenny, got her nails done, put gas in TL's Jeep, took the Jeep to a carwash, went out to clubs with friends, and got a Tattoo during this time..and whatever else she did that she needed to pay for.
IMO she needed more than the $400 she IMO stole from Amy...

I agree, and tats are expensive-This was not a tattoo done at home gratis for KC, it was at a shop and the owner, Danny, was not so close to KC he would give out free tattoos, IMO.

As far as smoking pot and how it applies to this case, TL's transgressions were at the misdemeanor level as far as we know-Dealing is not a low-level crime (the most severe cases carry the death penalty in Floirda), and this dealer would have a lot to gain if he had any information on KC. For some reason, I thought a large amount of money was mentioned as being stolen, "large" being in the range of grand theft. Sure wish they could have pinned KC on that as well.

 

[Horace Finklestein]

Bravo! I agree that this post states the case of reasonable doubt explicitly and sums it up in a nutshell. Just like when it snows overnight while we are asleep. We did not see it snow, but we do see the covering of snow upon the ground and so it is a reasonable assumption that it snowed while we slept. There is every reason to believe that Casey is guilty of taking her own child's life and no reason to to believe that she didn't. Like footprints in the snow, she left a trail.

Don't forget the defense attorneys who would try to call the concept of precipitation in the form of snow "junk science".

 

[Horace Finklestein]

Sorry to quote myself.. but I have been listening to the Tony/Lee undercover tape and Tony does say the guy he bought weed from... his apartment was broken into (don't know the name?) and money was stolen. Someone came through the window and left through the front door.

Does anyone really see Casey breaking and entering? I don't know? She could have, but even if she did... how would this big bad "weed dealer" know if was Casey?

I definitely could see casey breaking and entering. When she wanted/needed money she would find a way to get it - stealing from parents/grandparents' accounts, forging friends' checks, stealing gas, and God knows what else. She was well on her way to being a serious criminal. She respects nothing and no one, so I could easily see her breaking a window, grabbing some cash and thinking nothing of it.

I would add that the whole weed dealer idea is a tad dramatic. Most of the time people that sell that stuff are not hard core criminals who would murder someone over a few hundred bucks. I could see it with cocaine or something in the right setting, but weed seems like it's pretty small potatoes and a person doesn't need to be a full time committed dealer to sell it. In a lot of places it's pretty casual.

 

[Pattymarie]

Isn't it interesting that all have KC's friends/boyfriends have been EXTREMELY silent in all of this? Seriously...they know they are just bit players and don't need anymore grief. If they had anymore to say...we would have heard it in the Enquirer....for money. But NOT...they have nothing more to offer. Other than than the truth towards her guilt. Feel sorry for those who got involved with her in "08.