The case for murder

[MyBelle]

One thing I think adds to a theory of murder (although I agree with you about planning and I originally thought this was a 'hit') is that it appears time was given for everyone to come in and out and say goodbye to Max that was going to do that at the hospital (except Rebecca, but including the Friend Dr. Luber, Dina's sister, Jonah's brother and anyone unknown to us). Soon after everyone had this chance.... guess what.

I still don't think Rebecca knew or was fully aware of the 'suffocation' thing or it's implications, but that would have happened probably sooner rather than later - didn't they say this was going to be file on Wed or some key event with that was about to happen. Guessing, Rebecca may not have taken this so well and, at that point, I wonder if Jonah would have had to fess up and tell her he wasn't going to support her through this (I mean in any way).

It was also said that Dr. Peterson continued to believe it was suffocation for 4 days?

Unless there is a link to support otherwise, I'm of the opinion Dr. Peterson continues to believe it was suffocation. The proof one way or the other might become public if a civil lawsuit is filed by one of the parents.

JMO

 

[KarenM]

I wish we had an idea of if and when DS & JS were made aware of Dr. Peterson's ultimately erroneous suspicions. I'm wondering how long either or both of them would have had to plan a crime. I'm actually frighteningly able to imagine my
unmitigated rage if I thought my ex husband's girlfriend was directly responsible for a (possibly deliberate) fatal injury to my child. I might very well entertain homicidal thoughts, but: whoa. How carefully I'd want to plan such a venture.

If I seriously meant to go through with it, I sure would want some time to think about how to reduce, or eliminate my risk of getting caught. I'd be pretty stinking reluctant to mention it to someone else or solicit their help. The trust would have to be profound. I'm imagining twins might have that kind of trust, but, it's just a thought. Also, getting this trusted accomplice to cover for you is one thing, or even send a text, but… how far could I ask this trusted person to go for me? Yikes! (these same thoughts come up for me with Terri M Horman & Dede Spicher in the Kyron Horman case, FWIW). It's easier for me personally to imagine this as a one person job, than to see it as a conspiracy. I don't think I trust anyone enough to ask them to be an accomplice to murder. What if you ask and they say no? You've blown your chance then. If the victim you suggested winds up dead you'll have tipped your hand.

Other than those who might seek revenge for Maxie's death, who stood to gain from R's death? Did she have any life insurance? (suicide can often void that anyway)

I mentioned in another thread that Coronado is extremely close to the Mexican border, could this be the work of a hired hit man? How hard would it be to find such a person all on the QT? Every way I think to get information ends up being traceable.

But to go back to my original ponderings, if we assume that Rebecca's death was a revenge killing for Maxie, that gives us a pretty narrow suspect list, so, the next question is, how long did this alleged murderer have to plan? They had between Dr. Peterson sharing his suspicions, and Rebeccca's death. How long was that? Do we know, can we know?

I really don't think it takes very long to plan such a murder. It was not a perfect murder that you saw sometimes in the TV anyway. If the invovled parties were not powerful and well connected, the case would have been blown wide open long ago. Everyone being discussed in WS as a potential suspect probably have already been asked to take lie detector tests. Their cell phone records would have been collected.

Let's not forget that the dective determined RZ'a death as a homicide on Day 1. But he changed his mind later. What made him change his mind so quickly? Science, evidence? The sheriff said that science never lied. But people who utilize the science, on the other hand ...

 

[time]

Unless there is a link to support otherwise, I'm of the opinion Dr. Peterson continues to believe it was suffocation. The proof one way or the other might become public if a civil lawsuit is filed by one of the parents.

JMO

Really? Dang, Sunnie had a hard enough time even getting me to cut the guy some slack, I would seriously have to question his credibility if he still thought it was suffocation. :waitasec:

 

[MyBelle]

Really? Dang, Sunnie had a hard enough time even getting me to cut the guy some slack, I would seriously have to question his credibility if he still thought it was suffocation. :waitasec:

I don't question the expertise of a real doctor who is Chief of an ICU at a Children's Hospital nor would I expect him to change his opinion. As I mentioned, we may learn more if one of Max's parents files a wrongful death lawsuit. I would hope he would testify.

JMO

 

[sorrell skye]

I wanted to also comment about the windows below. See there are so many physical issues that bother me about this whole alleged suicide. But first about the concept of swinging into and breaking the windows below.

A "suicide leap" from the master bedroom desk would have been a totally different physical dynamic. The balistrade on that deck is extremely low. You could actually hop over it (maybe even with your ankles bound!). So in the case of the side deck she would have had a near straight vertical fall, most likely feet first. There would have been very little swinging involved.

Compared to....how we are being asked to believe she chose to do it. In a far more complicated, difficult (I believe the physics show near impossible) manner of rotating her body over a 38" high balcony rail. In the case of the guest bedroom balcony, her body MOST DEFINITELY swung once it hit the end of the rope and I would be surprised if her feet did not strike the side of the house.

What nobody has been able to give me is a logical explanation for why, if you have chosen to perform the difficult task of propelling yourself over a 38" rail, when you're only 5' 3-1/2" tall, you would decide to bind your ankles and make it more difficult. And "symbolic" don't work for me as an excuse.

People keep coming up with the phrase "you never can tell how a suicidal person might think" to cover every single thing that is bizarre AND would require this woman to consider a myriad of factors. Problem is, if you apply that reasoning to every issue discussed (like - omg, I might break the windows!) you end up turning Rebecca into a MacGyver...a friggin genius whose mind ran through a matrix of parameters prior to her finalizing her own ending.

I can see binding your ankles if you are looking at what is the more "typical" (I guess that's the right word to use) indoor hanging suicide where you basically tie yourself off to a closet rod or something and then step or hop off a chair or table. In that case, like the bound wrists, you COULD try to save yourself if your feet are free.

You can't do squat with your feet once you've dropped 12 foot from a 2 story balcony. I'm sorry, but the binding of the ankles is virtually impossible to explain in a suicide conclusion.

Valhall, I am in complete agreement with you about the physical issues of the so-called *suicide*. I don't believe RZ committed suicide (for a number of reasons). Your analysis (which we've linked here in a number of posts) of the geometry of the fall from the guest room balcony is what convinced me that Rebecca did not commit suicide. In my list of 20 Reasons why I don't believe it was a suicide, your geometry article was listed as my #1 reason.

I wanted to ask you a question about the master bedroom deck and the balustrade that borders it. It's a low balustrade, but how wide is it? In an aerial photo I've seen, it looks to be about 4-6" wide. In addition, there is a ledge just below the balustrade on the street-facing side & on the side that faces the neighboring house. This ledge looks to be about 8-12" deep (this is just a guess from looking @ the aerial photo).

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...case-reopened-hanging-rope-visible-video.html

Can you tell from the floor plans how wide the balustrade is and how deep that ledge is?

Here's where I'm going with this: Since I don't believe that RZ killed herself (ergo, someone else threw her to her death, IMO), I believe the master bedroom deck was rejected due to the fact that this particular deck was very visible to the sidewalk & street. If I put myself into the mind of a killer (ugh - I don't like going there at all), I'm thinking that I wouldn't want to commit murder up on a deck where I could possibly be seen by anyone that might happen by on the sidewalk or street, or perhaps by someone taking a walk on the beach that is directly across the street.

I also think that in order to clear the width of the balustrade, as well as the depth of the ledge below, would have required RZ's body to have been thrown out & over (as opposed to a straight-down vertical drop), and I think that would have caused her body to swing into the windows. A murderer would not want to attract attention by having windows break, especially with the house next door so close to that deck & the windows below. I know if I heard the sound of breaking windows I'd at least peek out to investigate (my first thought might be that someone was trying to burglarize my neighbor's house).

Here's the thing: I think whomever it was who threw RZ over the railing to her death, chose the guest room balcony because the courtyard is secluded from the street, whereas the other deck is not.

 

[Peaceful]

Does anyone have a link to the "press conference". Not the first one, on July 14th but the second one that announced their findings. I realize the SDSO has one posted on their site but it does not include the questions at the end and that is what I would like to see as well. Thanks in advance. I will post it on the link thread if I get it as well.

 

[greenpalm]

Valhall, I am in complete agreement with you about the physical issues of the so-called *suicide*. I don't believe RZ committed suicide (for a number of reasons). Your analysis (which we've linked here in a number of posts) of the geometry of the fall from the guest room balcony is what convinced me that Rebecca did not commit suicide. In my list of 20 Reasons why I don't believe it was a suicide, your geometry article was listed as my #1 reason.



…respectfully snipped…

Here's where I'm going with this: Since I don't believe that RZ killed herself (ergo, someone else threw her to her death, IMO), I believe the master bedroom deck was rejected due to the fact that this particular deck was very visible to the sidewalk & street. If I put myself into the mind of a killer (ugh - I don't like going there at all), I'm thinking that I wouldn't want to commit murder up on a deck where I could possibly be seen by anyone that might happen by on the sidewalk or street, or perhaps by someone taking a walk on the beach that is directly across the street.

I also want to thank Valhall for an incredible analysis. I was very pleased to see your link to better quality floor plan images, because I had spent *quite* a bit of time trying to analyze the floor plans myself. In my case, I was specifically looking to see if there was another Juliet style balcony on the property from which someone could have taken all the pre-measurements in preparation to cut the rope…but not leave footprints on Rebecca's balcony. I looked pretty closely at the deck off the master bedroom, but it didn't suit the purposes I had in mind at that time. Nevertheless, your thorough investigation has been illuminating.

I do want to say, that having spent time on Coronado Island, myself (not verified) there would very likely be people walking up and down Ocean Blvd. at that hour of the night. Given that the deck itself is visible from the street, the low railing actually makes any activity up there especially visible. It would just be too risky for a murderer to hang Rebecca from the Master Bedroom deck. I got another shot of the walkway between the houses from Google Earth, this one is from a slightly different angle. I respectfully maintain that a body hanging there would have stood a good chance of being seen from people walking on the sidewalk.

I also think that in order to clear the width of the balustrade, as well as the depth of the ledge below, would have required RZ's body to have been thrown out & over (as opposed to a straight-down vertical drop), and I think that would have caused her body to swing into the windows. A murderer would not want to attract attention by having windows break, especially with the house next door so close to that deck & the windows below. I know if I heard the sound of breaking windows I'd at least peek out to investigate (my first thought might be that someone was trying to burglarize my neighbor's house).

Here's the thing: I think whomever it was who threw RZ over the railing to her death, chose the guest room balcony because the courtyard is secluded from the street, whereas the other deck is not.

 

[4Jacy]

I wish we had an idea of if and when DS & JS were made aware of Dr. Peterson's ultimately erroneous suspicions. I'm wondering how long either or both of them would have had to plan a crime. I'm actually frighteningly able to imagine my
unmitigated rage if I thought my ex husband's girlfriend was directly responsible for a (possibly deliberate) fatal injury to my child. I might very well entertain homicidal thoughts, but: whoa. How carefully I'd want to plan such a venture.

If I seriously meant to go through with it, I sure would want some time to think about how to reduce, or eliminate my risk of getting caught. I'd be pretty stinking reluctant to mention it to someone else or solicit their help. The trust would have to be profound. I'm imagining twins might have that kind of trust, but, it's just a thought. Also, getting this trusted accomplice to cover for you is one thing, or even send a text, but… how far could I ask this trusted person to go for me? Yikes! (these same thoughts come up for me with Terri M Horman & Dede Spicher in the Kyron Horman case, FWIW). It's easier for me personally to imagine this as a one person job, than to see it as a conspiracy. I don't think I trust anyone enough to ask them to be an accomplice to murder. What if you ask and they say no? You've blown your chance then. If the victim you suggested winds up dead you'll have tipped your hand.

Other than those who might seek revenge for Maxie's death, who stood to gain from R's death? Did she have any life insurance? (suicide can often void that anyway)

I mentioned in another thread that Coronado is extremely close to the Mexican border, could this be the work of a hired hit man? How hard would it be to find such a person all on the QT? Every way I think to get information ends up being traceable.

But to go back to my original ponderings, if we assume that Rebecca's death was a revenge killing for Maxie, that gives us a pretty narrow suspect list, so, the next question is, how long did this alleged murderer have to plan? They had between Dr. Peterson sharing his suspicions, and Rebeccca's death. How long was that? Do we know, can we know?

I don't know. I don't think JS would vouch for anything, but I can't understand if DS were, in fact the murderer, why she wouldn't stand up to the plate and admit it. I would, in a New York minute, I would!!!

 

[Peaceful]

Did JS "cook the books"? Should we even touch on this? Maybe its off topic? My apologizes in advance if so.
http://www.bnet.com/blog/drug-busin...e-alleging-ceo-shacknai-cooked-the-books/9829

 

[deanna82437]

Did JS "cook the books"? Should we even touch on this? Maybe its off topic? My apologizes in advance if so.
http://www.bnet.com/blog/drug-busin...e-alleging-ceo-shacknai-cooked-the-books/9829

I believe it was discussed briefly either upthread or in another thread. There are so many it's hard to keep track, but I did see that link somewhere. :waitasec:
Interesting article though, wouldn't you say?

 

[Peaceful]

I believe it was discussed briefly either upthread or in another thread. There are so many it's hard to keep track, but I did see that link somewhere. :waitasec:
Interesting article though, wouldn't you say?

I absolutely agree!

They said it on the Coronado Patch last night and I feel it still, something is about to break in this case. (fingers crossed) Anne Bremner promised last week we would see her formal request for an independent investigation this week. I am pretty sure SHE won't wait until the Friday before a holiday to present it either.

I just want to see something that makes some freakin sense come out of this case. I am certainly not convinced that CPD, SDSO, SDME, LE (whatever you want to call the idiots) have explained anything correctly.

The more they "explain" the less anything makes any sense. THANK GOD I am not alone in these thoughts. The public outcry is truly moving! I am thankful to be amongst yous!

One more thing, maybe I am off base but I re-watched the PC (Press Circus) and I found it strange that the CPD Commander explained that all agencies worked both of these cases together.

I mentioned this in an earlier post with regard to the possibility of the ""investigators" being debriefed at the mansion with the intel about MS being in the hospital, not likely to survive & the Dr. saying his visible injuries do not match the story provided by RZ, (the sole caregiver at the time). Furthermore, he was possibly suffocated before his "fall".

Wouldn't the thought of little MS possibly being "suffocated" by RZ taint the mindset of the investigation? Especially being they only seemingly used the pieces of MS's case to complete RZ's case, only referring to MS's family for the pieces? seemingly.

I just don't get it.

These are law enforcement officers. I would like to think they don't have it in them to pass judgement but in knowing human nature, how do you all feel about someone who smothers a 6 yr old?

Did this possibly influence the investigation in some way?

All speculation and solely my thoughts and opinions.

 

[justice be served]

I absolutely agree!

They said it on the Coronado Patch last night and I feel it still, something is about to break in this case. (fingers crossed) Anne Bremner promised last week we would see her formal request for an independent investigation this week. I am pretty sure SHE won't wait until the Friday before a holiday to present it either.

I just want to see something that makes some freakin sense come out of this case. I am certainly not convinced that CPD, SDSO, SDME, LE (whatever you want to call the idiots) have explained anything correctly.

The more they "explain" the less anything makes any sense. THANK GOD I am not alone in these thoughts. The public outcry is truly moving! I am thankful to be amongst yous!

BBM
Peaceful, thank you, thank you, thank you! I couldn't have said it better!

 

[sorrell skye]

I do want to say, that having spent time on Coronado Island, myself (not verified) there would very likely be people walking up and down Ocean Blvd. at that hour of the night. Given that the deck itself is visible from the street, the low railing actually makes any activity up there especially visible. It would just be too risky for a murderer to hang Rebecca from the Master Bedroom deck. I got another shot of the walkway between the houses from Google Earth, this one is from a slightly different angle. I respectfully maintain that a body hanging there would have stood a good chance of being seen from people walking on the sidewalk.

TY for your input, Greenpalm - especially since you're someone who has visited Coronado Island!

TY for the Google pic, as well (although it may not reflect the privacy wall that JS wanted to build - was that privacy wall ever built, by the way?).

ITA with you that it would be too risky for a murderer to hang Rebecca from the Master Bedroom Deck.

If RZ was struggling against her attacker as her attacker dragged her across the deck, it could draw attention from anyone who may have been unexpectedly walking on the sidewalk or driving on the street. Would a murderer risk that kind of attention? I don't think so.

Even if RZ was already incapacitated (knocked out from blows to the head - i.e. the 4 subgaleal hemorrhages), there would still be a risk of being seen from the sidewalk, the street, or the beach; as her attacker dragged her across the Master Bedroom Deck.

I think her attacker took this into consideration, and chose a more secluded location. MOO

Personally, I'm confounded as to why the Master Bedroom Deck was ever brought up at all as a logical place for a hanging. IMO, it's the least logical place for a hanging (whether suicidal or homicidal - but especially homicidal), considering the deck's visibility (as well as the visibility of anyone standing or walking across it) to the sidewalk & the street.

I will reiterate this thought:

I think whomever it was who threw RZ over the railing to her death, chose the guest room balcony because the courtyard is secluded from the street, whereas the Master Bedroom deck is not.

 

[Peaceful]

TY for your input, Greenpalm - especially since you're someone who has visited Coronado Island!

TY for the Google pic, as well (although it may not reflect the privacy wall that JS wanted to build - was that privacy wall ever built, by the way?).

ITA with you that it would be too risky for a murderer to hang Rebecca from the Master Bedroom Deck.

If RZ was struggling against her attacker as her attacker dragged her across the deck, it could draw attention from anyone who may have been unexpectedly walking on the sidewalk or driving on the street. Would a murderer risk that kind of attention? I don't think so.

Even if RZ was already incapacitated (knocked out from blows to the head - i.e. the 4 subgaleal hemorrhages), there would still be a risk of being seen from the sidewalk, the street, or the beach; as her attacker dragged her across the Master Bedroom Deck.

I think her attacker took this into consideration, and chose a more secluded location. MOO

Personally, I'm confounded as to why the Master Bedroom Deck was ever brought up at all as a logical place for a hanging. IMO, it's the least logical place for a hanging (whether suicidal or homicidal - but especially homicidal), considering the deck's visibility (as well as the visibility of anyone standing or walking across it) to the sidewalk & the street.

I will reiterate this thought:

I think whomever it was who threw RZ over the railing to her death, chose the guest room balcony because the courtyard is secluded from the street, whereas the Master Bedroom deck is not.

OR, perhaps RZ was simply being consistent in her goal of making her "suicide" a worlds record for The Most Difficult and Scientifically Impossible Suicide EVER! :floorlaugh:

 

[Valhall]

Valhall, I am in complete agreement with you about the physical issues of the so-called *suicide*. I don't believe RZ committed suicide (for a number of reasons). Your analysis (which we've linked here in a number of posts) of the geometry of the fall from the guest room balcony is what convinced me that Rebecca did not commit suicide. In my list of 20 Reasons why I don't believe it was a suicide, your geometry article was listed as my #1 reason.

I wanted to ask you a question about the master bedroom deck and the balustrade that borders it. It's a low balustrade, but how wide is it? In an aerial photo I've seen, it looks to be about 4-6" wide. In addition, there is a ledge just below the balustrade on the street-facing side & on the side that faces the neighboring house. This ledge looks to be about 8-12" deep (this is just a guess from looking @ the aerial photo).

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...case-reopened-hanging-rope-visible-video.html

Can you tell from the floor plans how wide the balustrade is and how deep that ledge is?

Here's where I'm going with this: Since I don't believe that RZ killed herself (ergo, someone else threw her to her death, IMO), I believe the master bedroom deck was rejected due to the fact that this particular deck was very visible to the sidewalk & street. If I put myself into the mind of a killer (ugh - I don't like going there at all), I'm thinking that I wouldn't want to commit murder up on a deck where I could possibly be seen by anyone that might happen by on the sidewalk or street, or perhaps by someone taking a walk on the beach that is directly across the street.

I also think that in order to clear the width of the balustrade, as well as the depth of the ledge below, would have required RZ's body to have been thrown out & over (as opposed to a straight-down vertical drop), and I think that would have caused her body to swing into the windows. A murderer would not want to attract attention by having windows break, especially with the house next door so close to that deck & the windows below. I know if I heard the sound of breaking windows I'd at least peek out to investigate (my first thought might be that someone was trying to burglarize my neighbor's house).

Here's the thing: I think whomever it was who threw RZ over the railing to her death, chose the guest room balcony because the courtyard is secluded from the street, whereas the other deck is not.

I so agree with you that the deck would NOT be chosen if this was a murder. I do believe it would be the most logical and the easiest if this was a suicide. While the detail of the architectural feature of the balustrade isn't explicitly marked on the drawings, I was able to get what I believe is a very realistic estimate by using the scaled floorplans.

The ledge past the balustrade is between 7-1/2" and 8" wide. The balustrade itself is right at 1 ft wide.

There would have been no need to "throw" Rebecca the 1' 8" to clear the balustrade and the ledge past it. The balustrade was wide enough for a perpetrator to stand on and then have Rebecca standing directly in front of them on the ledge. It would have been a simple push. The only reasons I can come up with on not using this location versus the balcony of the guest room is that for a murder it is more accessible by the public and then IF the murderer considered the windows below (a murder would more likely cause swinging because you'd have to push the person off, whereas a suicide would be stepping (hopping if you're bound) off the ledge.)

For a suicide, I think these reasons pretty much go away. Unless, as I referenced above, you want to describe Rebecca during this period of time as both so distraught she killed herself in a humiliating and painful way and also had the clarity of mind to think through every aspect of this suicide in order to make it look suspicious when discovered, but not discovered until morning.

While the near impossibility of the physics of what they claim she did is what makes me think this was a murder, the application of such clarity of thought and so many "factors" having to be considered by a distraught and suicidal woman is the second thing on my list for why I don't believe it was a suicide.

 

[IWannaKnow]

TY for your input, Greenpalm - especially since you're someone who has visited Coronado Island!

TY for the Google pic, as well (although it may not reflect the privacy wall that JS wanted to build - was that privacy wall ever built, by the way?).

ITA with you that it would be too risky for a murderer to hang Rebecca from the Master Bedroom Deck.

If RZ was struggling against her attacker as her attacker dragged her across the deck, it could draw attention from anyone who may have been unexpectedly walking on the sidewalk or driving on the street. Would a murderer risk that kind of attention? I don't think so.

Even if RZ was already incapacitated (knocked out from blows to the head - i.e. the 4 subgaleal hemorrhages), there would still be a risk of being seen from the sidewalk, the street, or the beach; as her attacker dragged her across the Master Bedroom Deck.

I think her attacker took this into consideration, and chose a more secluded location. MOO

Personally, I'm confounded as to why the Master Bedroom Deck was ever brought up at all as a logical place for a hanging. IMO, it's the least logical place for a hanging (whether suicidal or homicidal - but especially homicidal), considering the deck's visibility (as well as the visibility of anyone standing or walking across it) to the sidewalk & the street.

I will reiterate this thought:

I think whomever it was who threw RZ over the railing to her death, chose the guest room balcony because the courtyard is secluded from the street, whereas the Master Bedroom deck is not.

I believe I was the one to bring this up first. The running argument in the suicide camp is that Rebecca took a swan dive off the juliette balcony because she was sooooo distraught over Max falling while she was in the bathroom so she chose to humiliate herself by hanging outside while naked. My contention all along has been that if she wanted to humiliate herself the front sidewalk in plain view of the world would be the more logical choice.....IF she really wanted that (I do not believe she did). I think that the 10 minutes necessary for her to asphyxiate would have been easily do-able in that isolated area at night. I do not believe that a person walking by after midnight would have noticed her hanging there in time to cut her down and effectively intervene - therefore her plan could have succeeded and been far easier to carry off with bound hands and feet, rather than trying to hoist herself over the much taller railing just outside Adam's door. I agree that breaking windows could have drawn the neighbors but my whole point with this debate of front deck vs juliette balcony is the humiliation angle and the logistics of the railing. If she watched out the window for the coast to be clear and walked out already tied up, she could have jumped into that side entryway area without being seen. She only needed 10 minutes to complete the deed, not all night.

This argument bolsters my contention that she was murdered for the very reasons you bring up....no murderer would be caught out on that front deck. They needed the privacy the courtyard provided.

 

[Valhall]

I believe I was the one to bring this up first. The running argument in the suicide camp is that Rebecca took a swan dive off the juliette balcony because she was sooooo distraught over Max falling while she was in the bathroom so she chose to humiliate herself by hanging outside while naked. My contention all along has been that if she wanted to humiliate herself the front sidewalk in plain view of the world would be the more logical choice.....IF she really wanted that (I do not believe she did). I think that the 10 minutes necessary for her to asphyxiate would have been easily do-able in that isolated area at night. I do not believe that a person walking by after midnight would have noticed her hanging there in time to cut her down and effectively intervene - therefore her plan could have succeeded and been far easier to carry off with bound hands and feet, rather than trying to hoist herself over the much taller railing just outside Adam's door.

*respectfully snipped to point of interest*

Can I just point out two things here?

1. Why would ANYBODY think that Rebecca would KNOW she was not going to die by a traditional hangman's injury and instead slowly strangle to death? First of all, she would have to be able to predict that the bed was going to lurch 7 inches when her weight jerked against it. No, sorry, she may have been a smart cookie, but we're talking a full blown dynamics analysis to predict that.

2. The bed lurching is only one factor in three I've identified as to why there wasn't spinal injury. The other two are in this order of possible effect to the jerk:

1. The knot being sideways to her body. The knot appears to have tightened around her neck close to her right ear. This eliminated the force of the knot against her spine. Again...I don't think Rebecca would KNOW that doing her contortionist, acrobatic, tippy-toed sideways half nelson would result in the knot being in the wrong place. (I DON'T THINK THE MURDERED WOULD EITHER!!!)

2. The only other factor that diminishes the "jerk" experienced by Rebecca's neck at impact was the stretch of the polypropylene braided rope. This is rather small compared to the two other factors. If the two other factors were eliminated, I do not believe the stretch of the rope would have eliminated a "hangman's injury".

If the "suicide" had happened from the master deck, the logical tie-off point would have been an immovable balustrade. There would have been no energy absorption like with the heavy bed moving 7 inches. She also would have just dropped straight off, and the odds would be the knot would be right at the spine.

SOoooo....the master bedroom deck would have resulted, most likely, in instantaneous or near instantaneous death. Not a lingering, painful strangulation.

***Okay, it ended up being more than 2 things....lmao!***

 

[greenpalm]

So I guess, in summary, the last few posts have put us in agreement (for a variety of reasons) that a murderer would definitely prefer the Juliet balcony.

 

[IWannaKnow]

*respectfully snipped to point of interest*

Can I just point out two things here?

1. Why would ANYBODY think that Rebecca would KNOW she was not going to die by a traditional hangman's injury and instead slowly strangle to death? First of all, she would have to be able to predict that the bed was going to lurch 7 inches when her weight jerked against it. No, sorry, she may have been a smart cookie, but we're talking a full blown dynamics analysis to predict that.

Agreed. Neither do I think she would feel that slowly strangling to death would be an appropriate atonement for her "sin" even if she could have known it would happen.

2. The bed lurching is only one factor in three I've identified as to why there wasn't spinal injury. The other two are in this order of possible effect to the jerk:

1. The knot being sideways to her body. The knot appears to have tightened around her neck close to her right ear. This eliminated the force of the knot against her spine. Again...I don't think Rebecca would KNOW that doing her contortionist, acrobatic, tippy-toed sideways half nelson would result in the knot being in the wrong place. (I DON'T THINK THE MURDERED WOULD EITHER!!!)

Agreed. My understanding is that the knot must be tied correctly and must be in the front of the neck to provide the backward pressure to sublux the joint and snap the neck. Otherwise the person slowly strangles to death. Either someone didn't get the memo on that or wanted her to die a slow, painful death.

2. The only other factor that diminishes the "jerk" experienced by Rebecca's neck at impact was the stretch of the polypropylene braided rope. This is rather small compared to the two other factors. If the two other factors were eliminated, I do not believe the stretch of the rope would have eliminated a "hangman's injury".

Not if she really fell 9'2" IMO.

If the "suicide" had happened from the master deck, the logical tie-off point would have been an immovable balustrade. There would have been no energy absorption like with the heavy bed moving 7 inches. She also would have just dropped straight off, and the odds would be the knot would be right at the spine.

SOoooo....the master bedroom deck would have resulted, most likely, in instantaneous or near instantaneous death. Not a lingering, painful strangulation.

Maybe, maybe not. A traditional hangman's knot has thirteen wraps and must be placed in front of the chin to work properly. The knot jerks up into the chin and pushes the head backward on the spinal column causing the one vertebra to slide across the other, snapping off the spinous process and squeezing the spinal cord between the bones (that was why in the old West you wanted a good hangman....make sure he tied the rope properly and put the knot in the right place). With the rope trailing behind her I think she would have had a hard time keeping the knot in the front where it had to be in order to die instantaneously. I'm very sorry but I don't think that even if she were that distraught she would have chosen to slowly strangle to death. Neither do I think she had the expertise to know these "factoids" ;-).

***Okay, it ended up being more than 2 things....lmao!***

:seeya: Thanks for your reply. Hope you don't mind me answering within your post. :crazy:

 

[Peaceful]

*respectfully snipped to point of interest*

Can I just point out two things here?

1. Why would ANYBODY think that Rebecca would KNOW she was not going to die by a traditional hangman's injury and instead slowly strangle to death? First of all, she would have to be able to predict that the bed was going to lurch 7 inches when her weight jerked against it. No, sorry, she may have been a smart cookie, but we're talking a full blown dynamics analysis to predict that.

2. The bed lurching is only one factor in three I've identified as to why there wasn't spinal injury. The other two are in this order of possible effect to the jerk:

1. The knot being sideways to her body. The knot appears to have tightened around her neck close to her right ear. This eliminated the force of the knot against her spine. Again...I don't think Rebecca would KNOW that doing her contortionist, acrobatic, tippy-toed sideways half nelson would result in the knot being in the wrong place. (I DON'T THINK THE MURDERED WOULD EITHER!!!)

2. The only other factor that diminishes the "jerk" experienced by Rebecca's neck at impact was the stretch of the polypropylene braided rope. This is rather small compared to the two other factors. If the two other factors were eliminated, I do not believe the stretch of the rope would have eliminated a "hangman's injury".

If the "suicide" had happened from the master deck, the logical tie-off point would have been an immovable balustrade. There would have been no energy absorption like with the heavy bed moving 7 inches. She also would have just dropped straight off, and the odds would be the knot would be right at the spine.

SOoooo....the master bedroom deck would have resulted, most likely, in instantaneous or near instantaneous death. Not a lingering, painful strangulation.

***Okay, it ended up being more than 2 things....lmao!***

Dear Val Hall,
Thank you from the depths of my being for all of your work on this case. Your information alone has completely disproved everything to me. You made everything that was so confusing, simple for the layman to understand. Your work in this case is truly heroic in my mind and I am humbled to be blogging in your presence. If you have not already done so, may I kindly ask that you make direct contact with the Zahau family attorney Anne Bremner. If she doesn't know about you, she sure a heck should!

I am ready to tivo your crime show! Someone put this woman on TV for gosh sakes!