Lisa Irwin Disappearance - Thoughts and Theories ONLY!

[Wise Old Owl]

So, if the larceny was JI being stolen from when the car was broken into, then what was stolen? I really, really, really want to know. And is there a car break in thread? I looked but didn't see one. TIA/.

Here's the thread:

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=151238"]the car break in - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

 

[gwenabob]

here's one example:

http://www.andersoncooper.com/episodes/black-market-babies-scandal/

edited to add quote from article:

Anderson explores the recently uncovered black market baby ring that has been operating for years in the United States. Run by ruthless lawyers, parentless embryos are created in overseas labs and then sold as babies for hundreds of thousands of dollars to women in America desperate for children.

Well, that is interesting. Doesn't really relate to the instant case, but wow, that is interesting! Thanks.

 

[natsound]

So, if the larceny was JI being stolen from when the car was broken into, then what was stolen? I really, really, really want to know. And is there a car break in thread? I looked but didn't see one. TIA/.

There is a thread about a car break-in. Apparently the car was broken into LAST MONTH (September) and DB told police to check cigarette butts from the break-in to see if they could lead police to the "intruder". (Did she keep the butts????)

So, the larceny thing is a separate incident.

 

[curiositycat]

There is a thread about a car break-in. Apparently the car was broken into LAST MONTH (September) and DB told police to check cigarette butts from the break-in to see if they could lead police to the "intruder". (Did she keep the butts????)

So, the larceny thing is a separate incident.

Exactly. If you go to the police dispatch thread here, the verified scanner expert states that this is what happens often. When there has been prior incidences at a residence sometimes they inform the officer of that.

This larceny thing, if it can be confirmed, IMO changes the whole landscape of this case. MOO

 

[jjenny]

Exactly. If you go to the police dispatch thread here, the verified scanner expert states that this is what happens often. When there has been prior incidences at a residence sometimes they inform the officer of that.

This larceny thing, if it can be confirmed, IMO changes the whole landscape of this case. MOO

Well maybe the larceny is because their car was broken into, and that was the incident at the residence.

 

[Codger]

Have to agree here! Good points, Codger.
Still behind now 3 days... still with the intruder theory - re the 2:30am call - calling his "partner-in-crime" saying - "I'm in".
I'm wondering if DB's bedroom door was always closed? I'm not in the habit of closing my bedroom door at night - plus she had other kids in the house - seems strange to close the bd door? No?
:waitasec:

I'm never "current" with posts. I don't think it's humanly possible when they fly at this speed. I do have to leave the keyboard now + again to use the bathroom, eat + sleep, at the least :crazy:

I tend to play devil's advocate, usually with myself, over various scenarios I might speculate on. This results in me arguing with myself + eliminating almost every possible one + never settling on something I'm attached to as "it must have been this way". That's why I have such a hard time when it's put forth that XYZ means it HAD to be the parent or ABC means it's obviously Mr. Joe Blow... I twist around the XYZ or ABC + can usually see how it might mean the opposite or certainly isn't definitive proof that it leads to one side or the other. Yes, I'm a resident of the fence in this case, for sure. Other cases, not at all. Why this one is so different, I don't know, maybe because there really is not much at all that WE are aware of to go on, evidence / factual wise. :waitasec:

Closing of doors - I always kept them closed, but know plenty of folks that prefer them open. With the monitor beside the crib, I'd want them shut to not disturb the baby + would feel comfortable listening in that way. The boys are old enough to get up + open doors if they need something or call out + be heard. So, I'd have them shut, but that's just me.

My theory of the moment, subject to change at any time - I think whoever did this will be in some way known to the family, whether intimately or casually. It may have only been a brief encounter. At the least I think they had an eye on the family, whether JI + DB were aware or not. There is that one in a zillion chance it could be a complete stranger, but even in that case, I think they'd been watching for an opportunity. I'm leaning more + more towards someone closer than that. I don't believe it was an accident + coverup. If there was any coverup, it was intentional + at this point with all we don't know, I just don't see these parents as fitting that scenario. I know the stats + I won't be in shock if it turns out the other way, but right this minute, I just don't see it + don't want to, so I'm not going to. :snooty:

 

[curiositycat]

Well maybe the larceny is because their car was broken into, and that was the incident at the residence.

No, they are separate incidents. A complaint of larceny against a person is NOT the same as reporting an incident of a possible robbery.

A complaint of larceny is served by a police officer to the person who the complaint is against.

If you look back at the threads from last night, someone researched and found the times indicates that there were three separate calls to LE.

I expect the channel 5 will be able to get more confirmation of what it is all about Monday. MOO

 

[Niner]

I'm never "current" with posts. I don't think it's humanly possible when they fly at this speed. I do have to leave the keyboard now + again to use the bathroom, eat + sleep, at the least :crazy:

LOL! I know what you mean! When I first heard about this case, I didn't look for it on here until a few days later - and it had already gotten up #12 thread of "general discussion"; starting reading the first thread, so I would at least know something about the case - but then came back a few days later and Lisa had her own forum. Now... I can't keep up! LOL!

Closing of doors - I always kept them closed, but know plenty of folks that prefer them open. With the monitor beside the crib, I'd want them shut to not disturb the baby + would feel comfortable listening in that way. The boys are old enough to get up + open doors if they need something or call out + be heard. So, I'd have them shut, but that's just me.

Yes, people are all different - I prefer the door open!

My theory of the moment, subject to change at any time - I think whoever did this will be in some way known to the family, whether intimately or casually. It may have only been a brief encounter. At the least I think they had an eye on the family, whether JI + DB were aware or not. There is that one in a zillion chance it could be a complete stranger, but even in that case, I think they'd been watching for an opportunity. I'm leaning more + more towards someone closer than that. I don't believe it was an accident + coverup. If there was any coverup, it was intentional + at this point with all we don't know, I just don't see these parents as fitting that scenario. I know the stats + I won't be in shock if it turns out the other way, but right this minute, I just don't see it + don't want to, so I'm not going to. :snooty:

Yes, my theory is still with an abductor - but the thoughts and theories of other WSers are making me think differently! :waitasec:

 

[panthera]

I have a question. For all the posters here who have opined that perhaps Lisa was kidnapped for a person who simply wants a child, when has that ever happened? I mean within the last 20 years or so. The statistics that have been thrown around on these pages say that out of the 200+ babies kidnapped, only 12 are unaccounted for. And I suspect they are probably dead.

I guess I just don't see how the logistics of stealing a baby to have for your own wold work. You can't really do anything with the child in the future without a birth certificate. Can't get a SS#. I just don't see how this theory would play out. I know we have seen quite a few crazed women trying to steal an infant directly from the womb and pass it off as their own, but a 10 month old?

I am sorry to say it, but the statistics overwhelmingly are in favor of someone in the family being the perpetrator of this crime. I really don't think she was stolen for the black market. I think the whole black market baby thing is mostly pulp fiction fantasy. In this country, anyway. But if someone could provide proof of a robust baby black market in the US, I would certainly be open to change my mind.

BBM

Just about the only scenario I could envision, if this were the case, would be a deranged woman who has lost her own baby and would kidnap Lisa to pass off as that baby. Again, statistically, it would narrow down the options of who the perpetrator is tremendously and this woman would likely be caught with minimal investigation by LE/FBI.

MOO

 

[lonetraveler]

I've been trying to remember the baby's name who was recovered from under a bed, hidden there by her aunt.

Shannon Lee Dedrick is the baby who was kidnapped by her aunt and hidden under a bed in a chest for days. I followed that case on WS and can't forget how we all felt when LE appeared carrying the baby on the news videos. She was seven months old.
http://articles.cnn.com/2009-11-05/...ddock-false-report-felony-charges?_s=PM:CRIME

Hopefully, LE has checked and rechecked the people at the birthday party who were passing Lisa around for photos.

 

[jjenny]

I've been trying to remember the baby's name who was recovered from under a bed, hidden there by her aunt.

Shannon Lee Dedrick is the baby who was kidnapped by her aunt and hidden under a bed in a chest for days. I followed that case on WS and can't forget how we all felt when LE appeared carrying the baby on the news videos. She was seven months old.
http://articles.cnn.com/2009-11-05/...ddock-false-report-felony-charges?_s=PM:CRIME

Hopefully, LE has checked and rechecked the people at the birthday party who were passing Lisa around for photos.

Shannon wasn't exactly "kidnapped" since her mother is charged with giving her away.

 

[ClaireNC]

No, they are separate incidents. A complaint of larceny against a person is NOT the same as reporting an incident of a possible robbery.

A complaint of larceny is served by a police officer to the person who the complaint is against.

If you look back at the threads from last night, someone researched and found the times indicates that there were three separate calls to LE.

I expect the channel 5 will be able to get more confirmation of what it is all about Monday. MOO

Does anybody know where the above mentioned threads are? Sorry, but it is not easy to find things in the forum, since it could be under this thread or the car break-in thread, or even just some random thread where somebody decided to post. If this was researched and confirmed, has it been added to the timeline?

 

[lonetraveler]

Shannon wasn't exactly "kidnapped" since her mother is charged with giving her away.

That's right but her mother reported her as missing and she was considered missing and abducted until she was discovered and then it came out that her mother had given her to the aunt. The mother and the aunt were going right along with the "abduction" scenario, lying their heads off right up to the end.

Unfortunately, a lot of babies and children are reported as "abducted" and later on found dead, as we all know.

 

[cj1132]

My latest theory is this and is subject to change as more information become available. I still believe this mom did not not hurt her baby or give her to someone. However, I believe one or both of them know something and hopefully, that information was given to LE. The parents were giving interviews and communicating with LE until the day when something changed and they quit talking. What if -- LE gave them some information that they refused to accept at that time such as baby Lisa was probably no longer alive or had been taken for other unimaginable purposes? Would they want to believe this and might be angry at LE for bringing it up? Possible. Maybe LE mentioned a name that they refused to believe could be potentially responsible and the parents didn't want to believe it. Possible. Maybe LE believes baby Lisa is no longer in the area and national media is a better way to go. Possible.

Many have said they'd be out searching, speaking to media, etc. and wouldn't care what people thought about them. Maybe they're following LE's lead and doing what they were told to do and if that's the case, they really don't care what people think. Just another way to look at it. JMO

 

[curiositycat]

I keep reading all of the posts about the larceny, some stating it was someone that broke into their vehicle, some say it's against JI. If anyone has valid information that shows it's directly against JI, could you please PM the info to me? A time and date would be awesome as it would allow me to go back through my personal scanner recordings if I've saved them far enough back.

While on this subject, the only thing I've seen about the larceny being against JI is the media's text only version stating this, it's in none of the scanner audio recordings that are posted. I think it's the media's lack of knowledge of understanding the PD dispatches "past incidents" at an address before units respond. I gave a great example of this in the scanner section, and I can see how the media would mis-interperate it.

There is an email for the woman who wrote the article. If they don't have more information on Monday I will email her directly and ask her to clarify.

If the article was written last evening, Verifying that would not have been easy, as you know, when all the records offices were closed.

 

[CKSWarriorQueen]

Huh. Just saw this for the very first time today, and I do not remember it being discussed. This is additional footage from the last interview DB & JI did with a local TV station. In it, Jeremy disclaims knowledge of the dumpster fire while Deborah says she knew about it. Look at their respective emotional affects here.
http://www.fox4kc.com/news/wdaf-add...-lisa-irwins-parents-20111011,0,5050853.story

I posted it on the Dumpster Fire Poll thread but also wanted it here to see what all of you thought.

 

[curiositycat]

Huh. Just saw this for the very first time today, and I do not remember it being discussed. This is additional footage from the last interview DB & JI did with a local TV station. In it, Jeremy disclaims knowledge of the dumpster fire while Deborah says she knew about it. Look at their respective emotional affects here.
http://www.fox4kc.com/news/wdaf-add...-lisa-irwins-parents-20111011,0,5050853.story

I posted it on the Dumpster Fire Poll thread but also wanted it here to see what all of you thought.

Thanks for sharing that. I hadn't seen it before. It seems as if media is not sharing all the video's and audio tapes as they were recorded originally. That's why we have a lot of confusion. Just that added amount of video gave me pause to think. MOO

 

[PlainJaneDoe]

I think Lisa was loved beyond words!

10/15/2011: Just Released - New Missing Baby Lisa Irwin Photos - YouTube

***Tissue Alert***

How cute! I love the one where she's sitting in the grass with her head cocked, like she's paying really close attention to something. :heartluv:

 

[GourmetSoy]

Huh. Just saw this for the very first time today, and I do not remember it being discussed. This is additional footage from the last interview DB & JI did with a local TV station. In it, Jeremy disclaims knowledge of the dumpster fire while Deborah says she knew about it. Look at their respective emotional affects here.
http://www.fox4kc.com/news/wdaf-add...-lisa-irwins-parents-20111011,0,5050853.story

I posted it on the Dumpster Fire Poll thread but also wanted it here to see what all of you thought.

I see JI as somewhat shocked and clueless about the info and DB as looking down, closing her eyes while she's talking and trying to explain it away....and she seems nervous at the question.

ETA: also, I'm not sure she finished many complete sentences or thoughts through that interview. Just an observation.

 

[Lillith]

Well, then Carlina Whte is about the closest that you are going to get. 19 days old when she was taken. Of course, her abductor never tried to legally adopt her, but if she had succeeded, I guess we'd never know. As far as blackmarket rings like you described, I only know of a few, most if them not fully substantiated, but I will give you that most of those kids were taken from hospitals, either at birth or when they were babies, not out of their beds at almost a year old.

I can think of a couple of cases here in Australia- One where a newborn was snatched from her car seat as the mum was putting her grocery shopping in the boot of her car. When she spoke to the media she kept saying "Please be patient with my baby as she's very unsettled and cries all the time". About a week later the baby was found alive on the floor of an abandoned house - cold morning, no blankets and they had shaved her hair but otherwise fine. A passer by heard her crying.......They eventually arrested a couple who had taken her. They said they took her because they wanted a baby but then dumped her because she turned out to be too much work!!!

The second case was a baby stolen by a complete lunatic and saddist, he had no motive, no connection with the family and he murdered the baby and was very cruel. Nothing in the case made sense - The case was a long time ago somewhere in the 70's I think. I still have nightmares about this story ever since I saw a documentary on it. It is ABSOLUTELY TERRIFYING to think that creatures like him exist out there.....