FL - 17-yo Teen Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #3

[LambChop]

GZ doesn't have to be in his home for him to be covered under FL self-defense law. The law covers anyone who is where he or she has a legal right to be.

But he had no legal right to pursue someone on a person's private property. GZ had no way of knowing where this young man lived. He had no right to question this person, nor would I. He knew LE was on the way yet pursued him. GZ has a legal right to be in his own home, he had no legal right to pursue someone on other people's property. TM was walking away from him and GZ left his car to pursue him that does not make it GZ's legal right. The only people who have the right to chase someone on private property are the police. And where was TM's legal right to walk down a street without being chased by a grown man with a gun. TM had a legal right to walk down that sidewalk without being pursued.

The law never intended for this type of situation to happen regardless of what it states or how it is stated. The law does not provide to protect people who are actively pursing another person when they have no right to do so. It is clearly stated in the handbook and was clearly stated by LE not to pursue. With the encounters with LE by the number of complaints made by GZ he should have known he was not suppose to pursue any suspect regardless of what his personal feelings were at the time.

We're suppose to be intelligent people and the fact that GZ grabbed his gun tells me he expected to get into a confrontation or why bring a gun? When you bring a gun to an altercation it's possible it could be used on you. If TM was defending himself and did not know about the gun it's possible GZ panicked, pulled the gun out and shot TM to keep TM from getting to the gun when all TM was trying to do is get away. GZ has to take full responsibility for this shooting. Charge him with manslaughter and let the jury decide in a court of law whether or not GZ was justified.

It appears to me that there is enough probable cause to charge him with at least manslaughter. His actions caused TM's death. The FBI should step in and investigate. jmo

 

[annalia]

Well, the way WE on this board define aggression isn't the way the law does. In the eyes of the law, approaching someone and asking what they are doing is not a crime. It's not an illegal act of aggression. Thank God, I think.

Actually according to the CNN legal expert, the First Aggressor Exception does apply here.

 

[Horace Finklestein]

if Gz tried, as I'm guessing, to stop this young man by palcing physical force upon him that makes Mr Martin a victim and not an attacker. By his own actions Mr Zimmerman became first an attacker then a killer.

We don't know who started the physical confrontation though.

 

[jjenny]

Actually according to the CNN legal expert, the First Aggressor Exception does apply here.

I guess that depends on which expert you ask, because there are other experts who say otherwise.

 

[annalia]

GZ may have thought Trayvon was armed, he obviously thought he was up to no good, so he may well have been in fear for his life.

If he was so afraid, then he should have stayed in his car like he was cautioned to do.

 

[raeann]

We don't know if it was Trayvon screaming or if it was GZ. none of us (presumably) know what that would sound like. Trayvon was not a small child.

The FBI will know this shortly with little trouble....all they need is a sample of Trayvon's voice to match the characteristics....this could be his pre-recorded voice mail answer, a voice mail that he left on someone else's phone, a school play that was video-recorded, a you tube video he made with friends, etc.....

The technology exists to analyze this and to eliminate the voice of GZ....even if he refuses to cooperate, there are plenty of recordings of his voice on calls to 911 to use for comparison.

jmo

 

[wishuwerehere]

If you listen to the 911 call that recorded Tray's screams http://audioboo.fm/boos/717346-911-call-screaming-and-gunshots-audible#t=0m0s it is clearly a child screaming for help. He is begging for his life. His last word is "help" before you hear him being murdered in cold blood.
In my opinion, IF - and I repeat - IF it were Zimmerman doing the screaming, the anxiety that he was feeling wouldn't just stop. IF it were Zimmerman putting up that struggle and screaming for his life, he would have continued to be hysterical until he could collect himself after supposedly coming so close to being killed. He wouldn't just casually ask the neighbor to call the cops.

It is unbelievable to me that anyone who has listened to that recording would even consider that it is not Trayvon doing the screaming.

BBM - To listen to this audio is heartbreaking and gut wrenching.

May Trayvon's parents get swift justice on his behalf.

jmo

 

[jjenny]

The FBI will know this shortly with little trouble....all they need is a sample of Trayvon's voice to match the characteristics....this could be his pre-recorded voice mail answer, a voice mail that he left on someone else's phone, a school play that was video-recorded, a you tube video he made with friends, etc.....

The technology exists to analyze this and to eliminate the voice of GZ....even if he refuses to cooperate, there are plenty of recordings of his voice on calls to 911 to use for comparison.

jmo

It might very well be GZ screaming. The witness who saw it supports the idea that it was GZ screaming "help."

""The guy on the bottom, who had a red sweater on, was yelling to me, 'Help! Help!' and I told him to stop, and I was calling 911," said the witness, who asked to be identified only by his first name, John."

Read more: http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/new...led-in-neighborhood-altercation#ixzz1psjHmbvn

 

[JeannaT]

I don't think anyone is stating this. However as we have seen, the live feeds have provoked protests in other city's for this family.Not saying that that is a bad thing, however one wrong move by the members of the protest in Sanford could have bad effects all over the country. People do what people see. If Sanford's protests get out of hand, and people see this in New York, it can turn into the riots after Rodney king, or the ones in the 60's. We all agree that justice needs to be served.

I think that the smartest thing for the DOJ to do right now is to arrest Zimmermen before this goes south real quick! They are already conducting an investigation, why not arrest him. If they fail to do so, the tension is gonna keep rising, and who knows what these once peaceful protests will do!

I sort of agree with you, that that would end this temporarily, but I think that's a VERY dangerous precedent to set - that people can be arrested when LE believes there isn't evidence to arrest them, just because the people who don't know what the evidence is want it to be so.

Remember when John Couey was found to be living - illegally - with extended family in that trailer without registering there as a SO? And the public was screaming for the occupants of the trailer to be arrested for harboring him? LE refused, saying they didn't know it was illegal for him to be there and they had committed no crime, and he wasn't going to arrest them just because the public wanted them punished.

The law has to stand here. If the public believes the Stand Your Ground law needs to be changed, so be it. But a man who was not acting illegally shouldn't take the fall so that an angry public will be appeased.

IMHO.

 

[JeannaT]

If he was so afraid, then he should have stayed in his car like he was cautioned to do.

He wasn't afraid initially obviously.

He became afraid during a physical altercation.

I've seen a lot of people keep saying obviously GZ wasn't afraid or he wouldn't have pursued him.

But it seems pretty obvious that GZ had no idea he would be physically attacked.

 

[Boytwnmom]

reports indicate that he was fixated on black males. Th 911 calls I read about all seemed to be about black men. And they were the only people he warned others about.

This afternoon six of the calls made by George Zimmerman were released by theSeminole County Sheriff's Office.

In four of the recordings Zimmerman called police to report "suspicious" persons — all of whom were black — in or near the Retreat at Twin Lakes neighborhood.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...1_neighborhood-county-sheriff-s-office-report

The white neighborhood watch volunteer in Florida whose fatal shooting of an unarmed black teen has sparked outrage appeared to be fixated on young black males, according to a report in The Miami Herald. ..According to the Herald, Zimmerman would often go door-to-door in the neighborhood, warning residents to be careful of young black males. The news organization also reports Zimmerman was energetic in his efforts to protect the neighborhood, and that he contacted police 46 times since Jan. 1, 2011, to report disturbances, break-ins and other incident.

http://www.ksdk.com/news/article/311082/28/Report-Shooter-in-racially-charged-death-often-called-cops-

I think he would have called the cops regardless of what race the kid was.

 

[Dr.Fessel]

GZ may have thought Trayvon was armed, he obviously thought he was up to no good, so he may well have been in fear for his life.

Yes that is true but it would be an unfounded and unreasonable fear.

 

[waltzingmatilda]

IMO, this SYG law is not being applied by LE as it was intended by the legislators who wrote and passed it. As I understand, the law was passed in order to protect hurricane victims from looters. Please correct me if I am mistaken.

Part of my outrage is due to the SYG law being used as defense in situations not for it's original intention. (does that sentence make sense?)

I learned of this law in the Trevor Dooley case. Dooley shot and killed a father in front of his own daughter, on a basketball court, in a private community for the simple reason that the father (sorry can't recall his name but he was a former marine) stood up for a skateboarder who was skating on the community basketball court. IIRC, Dooley exited his home to confront the skateboarder and the former marine said he gave the child permission. Dooly then raised his shirt to show the former soldier a gun in his pants and somehow the dad was shot down in front of his daughter and the young skater who will both be scarred for the rest of their lives. I was appalled to learn that Dooley would most likely get off due to the SYG law.

I appreciate Horace and jjenny and JeannaT posting about the reality of this law. I don't like it and I don't agree with it but the frank discussion is enlightening.

wm

moo

 

[gitana1]

I think he would have called the cops regardless of what race the kid was.

Possibly. He does seem very excited to be involved in policing. But I think his claims that Trayvon was suspicious, his pursuit after calling LE and his shooting of this unarmed young man happened because Trayvon was black (and young and much smaller than him). [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOVwrcTzRBs&feature=related"]Parents React To The Child Race Doll Test!!! - YouTube[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhRZjnF5uJk&feature=related"]Hidden Camera Shows That Racism is Alive & Well. - YouTube[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcAuO0PNnrs&feature=related"]Skin Color - The Way Kids See It - YouTube[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhRZjnF5uJk&feature=related"][/ame]

 

[HiHater]

GZ may have thought Trayvon was armed, he obviously thought he was up to no good, so he may well have been in fear for his life.

So let me get this right.

Next time I see someone who is up to no good, and possibly armed---I need to follow them, confront them, and ask what they are doing.

Got it.

Makes perfect sense.

 

[HiHater]

He wasn't afraid initially obviously.

He became afraid during a physical altercation.

I've seen a lot of people keep saying obviously GZ wasn't afraid or he wouldn't have pursued him.

But it seems pretty obvious that GZ had no idea he would be physically attacked.

A person who is armed and up to no good would NEVER physically attack someone. Never have I ever heard of that happening...

 

[Blue_Dolphin308]

Lets say they arrest him. But when he comes at trial there is no enough evidence to prove anything and he is let go. Is that going to make anyone happy?

At least it will calm people down for the time being. The way this is going the longer it is drawn out with no arrest, the more potential for this to get ugly. Arrest him, so the family can at least go through the judicial system and have their day in court. Then see how much it calms people down. At least they will be able to see it play out in court, unlike what they are seeing now, the police making the decision because 'there is no evidence'

 

[raeann]

It might very well be GZ screaming. The witness who saw it supports the idea that it was GZ screaming "help."

""The guy on the bottom, who had a red sweater on, was yelling to me, 'Help! Help!' and I told him to stop, and I was calling 911," said the witness, who asked to be identified only by his first name, John."

Read more: http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/new...led-in-neighborhood-altercation#ixzz1psjHmbvn

The point is that either way.....the FACTS will come out and it will not depend on opinion. The technology of voice matching has court case precedents for YEARS.

 

[Horace Finklestein]

as he was the one who went after the boy and confronted him. He had a really minor injury likely caused by the poor kid trying to defend himself from this crazed guy who was following him and confronted him. What evidence is there that GZ was "attacked" as you say? All evidence I see points to GZ being the aggressor as he was so upset that these "a&%holes" always get away. Why would Treyvon and his iced tea and skittles attack this guy? Makes no sense that this kid would suddenly coincidentally attack this guy who just called 911 and was following him.

We don't know why he might have attacked him. Maybe he was in fight-or-flight mode, maybe he was mad, felt accosted, who knows.

 

[LambChop]

GZ may have thought Trayvon was armed, he obviously thought he was up to no good, so he may well have been in fear for his life.

If GZ felt TM was armed he never should have pursued him. If you were walking down the street on your cell phone and someone started to walk briskly behind you and never identified themselves wouldn't you be concerned. GZ knew better, a 17 year old with no criminal history knows only to get away from aggressive people. From GZ's phone conversations with LE he certainly sounds like the aggressor. And in fear for his life, what about TM? At least GZ had some control, he could have backed away at any time, he was following TM and he knew he had a gun.

I do understand what you are saying but it never would have happened if GZ followed the instructions he was given. Once you get within reaching distance of someone you are in their personal space and intruding. There is no evidence that TM was pursuing GZ, none, it all points to GZ. jmo