FL - 17-yo Teen Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #3

[Dr.Fessel]

Watch it come out that he did shoot the kid in the back while sitting on him saying he thought the kid was going for a gun in his waste band while he was sitting on top of him.

 

[tlcya]

If GZ did start the physical altercations that would make him an aggressor. But there are no witnesses who can provide evidence of that.

If a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to hear it - did it still make a sound?

Sorry, I know that sounds flip but this law is just so broad, so loose and so broadly interpreted (at least by LE IMO) that it just drives me insane.

Statistics show that since “Stand your Ground” was enforced in Florida in 2005, justifiable homicide rates have jumped from an average of 12 justifiable homicides a year in Florida, to 33. Examples of murders with no evidence of provocation that were protected by this law include an incident in 2006 where a man directed 14 gun shots at a vehicle carrying a gang member, and a 2011 case where a man stabbed another in the head of with an ice pick following a traffic altercation.

http://www.policymic.com/articles/5...defends-the-unprovoked-attacker/category_list

Someone explain to me how justice can live in harmony with such a law???

 

[SuziQ]

Lets say they arrest him. But when he comes at trial there is no enough evidence to prove anything and he is let go. Is that going to make anyone happy?

So we don't arrest people and have a trial because if the defendant is found non guilty people won't be happy?

 

[Boytwnmom]

but first a homicide, any homicide, needs to be properly investigated and the crime scene secured and the shooter interrogated etc none of which happened. Circumstantial evidence, as we all know, is evidence. Circumstantial evidence points to Zimmerman being the pursuer and likely the agressor-he was concerned that this a%%hole would get away like they always do-he was clearly out of his vehicle following this kid, despite being told that wasn't necessary. he's carrying a gun which is not recommended for Neighborhood Watch members. There's the girlfriend on the phone, the 911 calls with the cries for help which seem more likely to be Trayvon's than Zimmermans as they stopped right when the shot was fired and the mother says it's his voice. But that will be clarified. The point is that law does not prevent any law enforcement agency from thoroughly investigating a homicide and arresting a shooter. If the defense applies invoke it during the process not to prevent any process of investigation from occurring.

I admit the law is probably flawed. in fact, I wonder if it could be challenged as unconstitutional. It seems to me to be a stupid law and I'm making a note to not ever live in a state that has such a law-it's practically insane. However, even the laws authors agree that it was not meant to apply in a situation such as present here and that this law should not protect Zimmermans' actions. Even Gov Scott is talking about amending the law though.

“The language is vague so what we want to do is point out that you cannot initiate contact,” said Smith, D-Fort Lauderdale, who voted against the bill while in the Florida House in 2005.
Smith said justifiable homicide has increased three-fold since the “stand your grand” law went into effect seven years ago, with many of the victims black.
“What it’s done is, it has emboldened those who are sometimes looking for confrontation, because they realize they have the shield of this law. This is a classic case of, if it’s my word against yours and you happen to be dead, there’s no way of knowing,” he said.

http://fcir.org/2012/03/20/floridas-very-scary-self-defense-law-and-the-death-of-trayvon-martin/

I find this whole subject to be Orwellian. If you kill the other person all you have to do is say you were scared and it was self defense. How does this make anyone feel safer? In an altercation, the aggressor is actually in a better position if they kill their opponent than if they leave them alive to testify to the aggression. If the other is dead, then all you have is the killers story. I shudder for it's application to domestic violence victims too.

Prosecutors opposed the Stand Your Ground law, and they still complain about it. “It is an abomination,” former Broward County Prosecutor David Frankel told the Sun Sentinel in January. “The ultimate intent might be good, but in practice, people take the opportunity to shoot first and say later they had a justification. It almost gives them a free pass to shoot.”

I'm not one who likes to blame things on race without good reason but it seems pretty clear here that Zimmerman had a thing for black boys and assumed they did not belong even though it seems there were more than a few black families that lived in his development. He seemed to have a bit of a hair trigger calling 911 so often and even over children playing in the street. I'm white but have young teen boys and I would be afraid to let them out around this guy as I'm sure when they're running around with their friends with their lacrosse sticks or a basketball they can make a ruckus. Would they be considered a "threat" to this guy? If so, can he kill them because they have a lacrosse stick and he was "afraid " they were going to steal from him or attack him. He killed a guy with skittles and iced tea because his apparent obsession likely caused him to see those things and the cell phone as weapons that threatened him and instead of keeping his prejudice at a safe distance he had to go make sure that a$%hole didn't get away. Well, he sure didn't, did he?

Zimmerman is very well protected by Fl self-defense law (despite what people who wrote it now say). If he is considered an aggressor, he would not be protected-but for that they would have to prove he is the one that started the fight. There are no witnesses as far as I can tell that can prove it one way or the other. And authorities don't seem to think that they can consider him following Trayvon an act of aggression in itself. So what exactly should be done in this situation?

 

[angeleleven]

Tray's own MOTHER listened to the tape and she ID'd her son's voice.

I had 3 children, each was about 16 months apart in age. I could tell each one's cough, sniffle, sneeze, cry, etc apart. A mother knows her child's voice and even their sounds.

I also don't believe that the consistently high pitch of the voice screaming for help would be possible to come from a man who is almost 30 years old.

Thank you. I totally agree with your post. I trust a mother to recognize the sound of her child. I have 3 also and know each one's sound apart from anyone else.

 

[jjenny]

So we don't arrest people and have a trial because if the defendant is found non guilty people won't be happy?

For someone to go on trial, at the very least a prosecutor has to believe there is enough evidence to obtain a conviction under existing laws.

 

[Horace Finklestein]

Tray can be heard on a recording screaming "HELP!" less than a second before Zimmerman shot him dead.

Does that mean that you think Tray was beating Zimmerman up to the point that Zimmerman felt his life was in danger....but all the while that Tray is supposedly beating the crap out of Zimmerman he is screaming "NO, NO, HELP, NO, HELP!"

Interesting viewpoint....and I can't even fathom it.

We don't know if it was Trayvon screaming or if it was GZ. none of us (presumably) know what that would sound like. Trayvon was not a small child.

 

[What'sThatClue]

Sorry, but I don't understand all this nail-biting, hand-wringing, and talk of "pending" riots just because people are protesting and rightfully upset, IMO, about a serious injustice.

Where were the histrionics during the numerous Occupy protests?

I'm pretty sure I understand the reasons, but I really hate to think we still haven't progressed past the 1960s.

I worry because many people outside the area were brought in by bus. I support the protest...but I also remember other protests that ended in tragedy, such as Kent State. I participated in many protests during my youth, not at Kent State but many others around that time. Police are there but the people are angry with police...so i worry. It only takes one LE and/or one protester and things might get out of hand. I live near this area (tho not in Sanford) and tempers here are raging among all races. And yes, in the past I've worried about the Occupy protests too. IMO it isn't histrionics, it's just plain worry.

 

[JeannaT]

Sorry, but I don't understand all this nail-biting, hand-wringing, and talk of "pending" riots just because people are protesting and rightfully upset, IMO, about a serious injustice.

Where were the histrionics during the numerous Occupy protests?

I'm pretty sure I understand the reasons, but I really hate to think we still haven't progressed past the 1960s.

The "Occupiers" were in no danger to themselves or anyone else, IMHO. They had no united cause, no passion, they were kind of whiney and out to have a good time. IMHO.

THIS is volatile. And I'm not biting my nails and wringing my hands, Velouria, I think it's a very rational thing to fear - that there will be more deaths in the next few days over this.

 

[gitana1]

This is going to get ugly QUICK! More and more people showing up. They are expecting thousands at the "peaceful" rally tonite at 7... Had to move locations because they were expecting more people.

And why is Al sharpton waiting until DARK to have this protest?

Don't get me wrong. I agree we need to see justice, but I am very afraid of what this can turn into .

I keep reading an almost certainty that because hundreds of dark-skinned people are gathering to protest, it is going to get ugly, it's dangerous, there WILL be riots.

Yes, there have been riots in the past. At many protests, however, like those in Oakland, there were a few rabble rousers that tried to ruin a peaceful demonstration. New York's rally did not become the dangerous race riot that many predicted. As long as the majority and LE are able to identify and isolate any rabble rousers, I see no reason why we need to assume this will become a blood bath. I've been at two protests with THOUSANDS of people of color and not a sign a violence was to be found.

This is now focusing on race. "Stop killing our black men" being chanted over and over.

It has been about race since an unarmed 140 black teen was shot to death by an armed stranger who pursued him for no reason, who was almost double the kid's weight and who was not arrested for the crime by LE who assumed his story was true and contradicted witnesses who had info it was false.

Unless they can do a voice analysis none of this is convincing to me. None of the witnesses on 911 call could say which one was screaming.
If Zimmerman was the one screaming he could have stopped because there was no longer a fight.

That's not true. One of the witnesses said clearly that it was a young person screaming for help, that it was the victim, not Zimmerman. LE tried to change her statement and refused to call her back after she kept checking to make sure they had the statement right. Plus, Trayvon's mom recognized his voice. A mother knows.

There is a witness corroborating that, and GZ had injuries as well. It's not true that there is no evidence GZ was attacked imo.

Having injuries is not evidence one was attacked, especially when that person admitted following the person who was later killed. Having injuries could be the result of having a victim fighting off an aggressor. Hence, suspects are often photographed to see if they have injuries indicating they were in an altercation.

The bottom line is Zimmerman stalked a frightened young man, who was trying to get away, for no reason and made sure "this one" didn't get away. He has a reported history of aggression, Trayvon has the opposite. He is a self-admitted cop wanna' be with a gun that some feel was aggressive in his "policing" of the neighborhood. He ignored the police dispatcher's admonition that he should not follow the young man. Taken together, it defies logic to assume that Zimmerman did not approach this teenager aggressively or that Trayvon, who reported he was scared of the stranger following him, suddenly attacked the man he was trying to escape with no provocation.

 

[SuziQ]

Yes. Which is legal.

Well if this case ever gets to a courtroom it will show frame of mind and intent, which was carried out succesfully. "They didn't get away this time".

 

[Velouria]

If GZ did start the physical altercations that would make him an aggressor. But there are no witnesses who can provide evidence of that.

BBM

I beg to differ.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1203/20/acd.02.html

Mary Cutcher and Selma Mora Lamilla live in the gated community where Trayvon Martin was killed. Mary was one of the people who called 911. They both say the police were siding with George Zimmerman from the start. I spoke to Mary and Selma about what they saw and they heard on that day.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: So you heard some sort of whining, some sort of commotion outside? MARY CUTCHER, NEIGHBOR: I was in the kitchen with the window open and the blinds pulled. So we had complete view from outside.

COOPER: What was the first thing you saw?

SELMA LAMILLA, NEIGHBOR: By that time, like shot -- like some other noise.

COOPER: You heard the gunshot?

Lamilla: Yes. And I run away from my backyard, and when I just get into the point of my -- like my screen, it stopped me, I look at that person on his knees on top of a body.

COOPER: So you saw Mr. Zimmerman on top of Trayvon Martin?

LAMILLA: Exactly.

COOPER: When you say on top of, how so?

LAMILLA: He was...

CUTCHER: Straddling him.

LAMILLA: Exactly.

COOPER: His legs were straddling him?

CUTCHER: One on each side, on his knees, with his hands on his back. I immediately thought, OK, maybe -- obviously, if it's the shooter, he would have ran. I thought maybe he's holding the wound, helping the guy, taking a pulse, making sure he's OK. And when she called to him three times, "Everything OK? What's going on?" Each time he looked back, didn't say anything.

And then the third time he finally said, "Call the police."

LAMILLA: But at that time it was so dark. I just saw this person. When she started calling the police, I saw Zimmerman walking with -- touching like his hair, like kind of like confused back and forth to the body. And -- and...

COOPER: So he was sort of pacing back and forth?

LAMILLA: Yes. Like, like -- oh, my God.

CUTCHER: He's pace and go back to the body and just like -- I don't know if he was kind of "Oh, my God, what did I do? What happened?"

LAMILLA: Something like that.

COOPER: So you didn't hear or see any altercation, any struggle?

LAMILLA: No.

COOPER: You only heard the cry, or the whimpering as you describe it, and then the shot?

CUTCHER: Yes.

COOPER: So you believe whatever altercation or tussle or whatever there was, you believe that happened elsewhere, but you didn't witness it?

CUTCHER: I believe that it had -- it had to have started from where the first person that called 911 and said, "There's a fight right outside my porch."

COOPER: How far away is that person?

CUTCHER: It's a couple doors down. And from that point to where his body was, you know, two or three doors down, it's hard for me to believe that -- and at the time that we heard the whining and then the gunshot, we did not hear any wrestling, no punching, fighting, nothing to give -- make it sound like there was a fight.

COOPER: When police now have said -- you gave an interview to a local station. Police have said what you said in that interview, what you're saying now is -- is contradicting what you told them early on. That your initial statement to police actually backs up George Zimmerman's version of events.

CUTCHER: Actually, when that was released I called the PR guy for the chief of police, and I demanded that they retract it and print the truth.

COOPER: They say that when they initially contacted you, that you didn't want to make any kind of a statement.

CUTCHER: They never...

LAMILLA: Can I say something about it? It's because that why I just decided to speak in public. I was the one that I never wanted to...

KUTCHER: She was the one...

COOPER: You didn't want to make a statement?

LAMILLA: Exactly. Well, I did, because she wanted (ph), but I didn't want to be in cameras.

COOPER: Right.

LAMILLA: When she said, we need to help the family, I said no, I don't want to go in the cameras.

COOPER: So when police say that your initial statement backs up Zimmerman's...

CUTCHER: I don't know how it's any different from what I said in the original interview, when I did...

COOPER: So what you're saying now tonight is the same as what you told the police initially?

CUTCHER: Absolutely. I said nothing different. The only thing I can think of that would have any difference whatsoever is they asked me how would you know that it was Trayvon that was whining? And I said, "I don't know. I guess because it stopped when the gun went off." And if it were Zimmerman crying, because he was hurt or something, I think he would have continued. I don't know.

What I heard was a very young voice and it stopped immediately when the gun went off.

COOPER: Based on what you saw -- and again, you didn't see a struggle -- do you believe it was self-defense? On Zimmerman's part?

CUTCHER: I did not.

COOPER: Why?

CUTCHER: Originally, I didn't believe it was self-defense because of what we saw when we walked out on the porch. If it was self-defense, why was he on his -- on Trayvon's back?

COOPER: What was your -- your impression of the police's attitude towards this? Did you form an impression?

CUTCHER: They were siding with him.

 

[Horace Finklestein]

Agreed.



I'll bet it is. I think he thinks he will satisfy some of the outraged nation by this maneuver. Why resign? We simply want an arrest. A temporary resignation is not going to satisfy the public. He avoids having to do the right thing by temporarily stepping down.



Black people get the cops called on them ALL the time for just walking down the street. If her son was doing nothing but walking, it's a safe assumption to make that the police were called simply due to the color of his skin.

You know, there has been study after study that indicates people of color, especially black people, are treated and perceived differently, regardless of how they present themselves or how they are dressed. Yet I keep hearing this assumption/inference, mostly by white people, that black people are paranoid, they cry "racism" too much, for anything, and use it as a divisive excuse.

Sure, there are a few people who will use the cry of racism falsely and to their advantage, but black people and other minorities experience overt and subtle discrimination every.single.day. I have seen it and heard it numerous times.

I just don't understand the defensive, passionate attempts to prove that what black folks experience is a figment of their imaginations. It's a reality that is borne out by study after study, statistic after statistic and experience after experience. Walk a mile.Black & Dangerous (Part 1 of 4): Black Male Stereotypes & Weapons Detection - YouTube
What the video is about:

I think he would have called the cops regardless of what race the kid was.

 

[annalia]

he became the agressor the moment he got out of his car and went after Mr Martin and took the law into his own hands. And as it turns out he ended up killing an innocent young man.

Absolutely.

The act of being the first aggressor as a self defense claim doesn't just start at the moment they came into contact. It began when GZ made his intent known to willingly and knowingly go after an innocent kid, ( who by the way had EVERY RIGHT to walk in that development as a guest,) his words go towards that intent. It doesn't even matter that 911 couldn't force him to stop following Tray, GZ had a lot of contact with 911, he knows that when they caution you, especially if you're acting as the Neighborhood Watch person, it's for good cause. They said 'we don't need you to do that", that sound like they're saying, you're not helping, let us do our job.

GZ chose to go after Tray, his mind was made up ( by his own words) that Tray was a effing ****, one of those *advertiser censored****** that always gets away. There's just no denying that. It's all part of what his mindset was at the time he chose to get out of his car with a loaded weapon and follow Tray.

So many legal experts, even ones who support this law, state the same thing.

And frankly, who cares what SPD said, their word in this case doesn't seem to be good for much.

JMHO

 

[JeannaT]

Absolutely.

The act of being the first aggressor as a self defense claim doesn't just start at the moment they came into contact. It began when GZ made his intent known to willingly and knowingly go after an innocent kid, ( who by the way had EVERY RIGHT to walk in that development as a guest,) his words go towards that intent. It doesn't even matter that 911 couldn't force him to stop following Tray, GZ had a lot of contact with 911, he knows that when they caution you, especially if you're acting as the Neighborhood Watch person, it's for good cause. They said 'we don't need you to do that", that sound like they're saying, you're not helping, let us do our job.

GZ chose to go after Tray, his mind was made up ( by his own words) that Tray was a effing ****, one of those *advertiser censored****** that always gets away. there's just no denying that. That's all part of what his mindset was at the time.

So many legal experts, even ones who support this law, state the same thing.

And frankly, who cares what SPD said, their word in this case doesn't seem to be good for much.

JMHO

Well, the way WE on this board define aggression isn't the way the law does. In the eyes of the law, approaching someone and asking what they are doing is not a crime. It's not an illegal act of aggression. Thank God, I think.

 

[Boytwnmom]

as he was the one who went after the boy and confronted him. He had a really minor injury likely caused by the poor kid trying to defend himself from this crazed guy who was following him and confronted him. What evidence is there that GZ was "attacked" as you say? All evidence I see points to GZ being the aggressor as he was so upset that these "a&%holes" always get away. Why would Treyvon and his iced tea and skittles attack this guy? Makes no sense that this kid would suddenly coincidentally attack this guy who just called 911 and was following him.

There is a witness corroborating that, and GZ had injuries as well. It's not true that there is no evidence GZ was attacked imo.

 

[Horace Finklestein]

Not if CZ put his hands on him to keep him from getting away.

It has to be a reasonable fear. Injury from wrestling match is not reasonable fear for your life.

GZ may have thought Trayvon was armed, he obviously thought he was up to no good, so he may well have been in fear for his life.

 

[princesspjs]

If GZ did start the physical altercations that would make him an aggressor. But there are no witnesses who can provide evidence of that.

GZ chased Tray down....he pursued Tray because he was wearing a hoodie and looking about. Tray hadn't done anything wrong, he had a right to be in that neighborhood because he was a guest at his father's girlfriend's house.

Tray's girlfriend heard Tray tell her that someone was following him and he was worried about that. She must have heard the fear in his voice at that time because she told him to RUN away! Tray chose to walk quickly away instead and Tray thought he had lost GZ but, all of a sudden he told her that GZ was right behind him. (Since Tray is trying to get away, this tells me that GZ took some shortcut through a yard or something so that he could catch up to him, instigating a confrontation) Tray's girlfriend heard GZ and ask Trayvon what he was doing there. (Again, GZ is the initiator)

 

[jjenny]

The woman on 911 did not see who was screaming. We have one witness who claims to have actually seen who was screaming, and he says it was GZ. And he is correct describing GZ as wearing red since police report states GZ was wearing red.

"The guy on the bottom, who had a red sweater on, was yelling to me, 'Help! Help!' and I told him to stop, and I was calling 911," said the witness, who asked to be identified only by his first name, John.

Read more: http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/new...led-in-neighborhood-altercation#ixzz1psjHmbvn

 

[Blue_Dolphin308]

Yep, just brush it under the rug, it will all come down out in the wash. The life of a 17-year-old child is nothing.

I don't think anyone is stating this. However as we have seen, the live feeds have provoked protests in other city's for this family.Not saying that that is a bad thing, however one wrong move by the members of the protest in Sanford could have bad effects all over the country. People do what people see. If Sanford's protests get out of hand, and people see this in New York, it can turn into the riots after Rodney king, or the ones in the 60's. We all agree that justice needs to be served.

I think that the smartest thing for the DOJ to do right now is to arrest Zimmermen before this goes south real quick! They are already conducting an investigation, why not arrest him. If they fail to do so, the tension is gonna keep rising, and who knows what these once peaceful protests will do!