trial thread: 3/28/2012

[paris_paris]

Cha, that's the car wash I was talking about waaaaaay back when car washes were first mentioned. If you come down from Guelph through Hespeler (or use Beaverdale Rd.) and go over the 401, you take the first right on Eagle street andit takes you right down past it. Seemed like the most convenient to me.

I grew up just up the hill from that car wash. Actually, I lived right across the road from it at one point.

I thought LE took TLM to all the known car washes and she said none of them were the right one.

There is a dumpster back on the left hand side in front of the vacuum. It's just behind that red van that's parked there. Oh, and access to the wash bays is at the back.

 

[roseofsharon]

Once more, the defence doesn't have to prove that MTR wasn't there. The burden of proof is on the Crown to prove that he was ... and beyond a reasonable doubt.

"the presumption of innocence places a legal burden upon the prosecution to prove all elements of the offense (generally beyond a reasonable doubt)"

Legal burden of proof - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yes, thank you AG, I know that ... I was commenting in response to Ardy's post .......... "you weren't there", i.e. is there a link regarding MTR's location on April 8, 2009, other than what is being alleged.

moo

 

[Kamille]

It amazes me that if this is the place TLM was talking about and that you were able to find it and LE couldn't... hope they are reading this

I told ya. WS rocks. I bet that is the place and we, well total credit goes to Cha, found it in under 2 hours.

LE really needs to take a good look at how they handle these cases and loosen up a little and ask for help. A bunch of out of town OPP detectives can't possibly compete with the public at large for quick effective results when searching things out.

This is the age of the internet. They need to embrace it IMO.

MOO

 

[matou]

Starting with the guy sitting in the prisoner's box who chose to do and say absolutely nothing for 3 years, hiding and destroying evidence, instead of leading LE to the evidence that might have backed up this farce of a story that he's expecting 12 intelligent people to believe after leaving that beautiful child's body to lay there and rot for three long months. Whjile simultaneously running around town suggesting that her own mother was at fault. And in doing so, possibly eliminating the DNA evidence that would prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that he raped that child...twice. Or that he didn't.

He didn't give a flying fig about that innocent little girl that he helped to dispose of in a rock pile. Still doesn't. He only cares about his own sorry *advertiser censored**.

What a fine upstanding citizen he turned out to be....not.

MOO

I agree with everything except that he likely raped her more than two times. JMO

 

[swedie]

Actually, she's changed her story quite a bit since she was first arrested.

1. She denies all knowledge and involvement
2. She then says she's the woman in the video, but MR raped and killed Tori and it was HIS idea to buy the hammer and bags
3. She then changes her story again and says SHE killed Tori, but MR raped her (Jan 2012)
4. She then says it was HER idea to buy the hammer and bags. (Jan 2012)
5. She quickly recants that and goes back to saying that it was MR's idea to buy the hammer and bags.

I don't recall TLM recanting about who purchased the hammer, could you please provide a link, TIA.

 

[Ardy]

Where is the proof that MTR wasn't there??

Nobody is asserting that MR wasn't there.

Even the defense theory has intimated that he was there.

Their theory is basically that MR didn't know that VS had been abducted, didn't rape VS, and didn't murder VS......but he did panic at what had happened and participated in cleaning up the evidence.

Remember that MR was charged with murder, on the basis of TLM's testimony that he murdered VS, which she has since recanted......probably because she didn't know if the police had found the hammer and her fingerprints would have been the only ones on it.

It is not beyond the realm of possibility that the words..........

"you are in it as far as I am" was directed by TLM to MR..........and not the other way around as she claims.

 

[dilbert]

I don't recall TLM recanting about who purchased the hammer, could you please provide a link, TIA.

I posted this twice previously, you must have missed it, here it is again. HTH :seeya:

For nine days following her May 19 confession, jurors heard Friday, McClintic drove with police to help find Tori's body. Despite her help, the body wasn't discovered until July 19, 2009.

McClintic pleaded guilty to first-degree murder in April 2010 and is serving a life sentence. Rafferty has pleaded not guilty to murder, kidnapping and sexual assault.

McClintic, meanwhile, changed her story to police Jan. 14, 2012, and testified in court she was the one who struck the fatal hammer blows that killed Tori.

For two days, Derstine pushed McClintic to admit she was "the driving force" behind the abduction and killing.

He noted Friday that in her Jan. 14, 2012, statement to police she said it was her decision to buy the hammer.

She was not telling the truth about that, McClintic testified.

"I made that statement because I was trying to get out of testifying."

 

[daisy.faithfull]

Nobody is asserting that MR wasn't there.

Even the defense theory has intimated that he was there.

Their theory is basically that MR didn't know that VS had been abducted, didn't rape VS, and didn't murder VS......but he did panic at what had happened and participated in cleaning up the evidence.

Remember that MR was charged with murder, on the basis of TLM's testimony that he murdered VS, which she has since recanted......probably because she didn't know if the police had found the hammer and her fingerprints would have been the only ones on it.

It is not beyond the realm of possibility that the words..........

"you are in it as far as I am" was directed by TLM to MR..........and not the other way around as she claims.

I think MTR would have been charged with murder even if TLM had not told LE that he had delivered the fatal blow.

 

[Ardy]

Yes, thank you AG, I know that ... I was commenting in response to Ardy's post .......... "you weren't there", i.e. is there a link regarding MTR's location on April 8, 2009, other than what is being alleged.

moo

The words reference the defense theory that TLM asked MR to stop the car, and leave to allow TLM to talk to VS to calm her down, as she was afraid of MR.

Their theory is that MR walked away from the car, and he returned to learn that TLM had killed VS, so he wasn't there when VS was murdered.

TLM now admits she did kill VS..........not MR.

 

[ChaChaCha]

Cha, that's the car wash I was talking about waaaaaay back when car washes were first mentioned. If you come down from Guelph through Hespeler (or use Beaverdale Rd.) and go over the 401, you take the first right on Eagle street andit takes you right down past it. Seemed like the most convenient to me.

I grew up just up the hill from that car wash. Actually, I lived right across the road from it at one point.

I thought LE took TLM to all the known car washes and she said none of them were the right one.

There is a dumpster back on the left hand side in front of the vacuum. It's just behind that red van that's parked there. Oh, and access to the wash bays is at the back.

Yup, it makes perfect sense - a mile or so down the road and straight back to the highway ... entrance thru the back and keep the front door closed gives lots of privacy ... the gas kiosk isn't open very late either.

I think we must have been neighbours in a previous life - I grew up around the corner and went to PHS ... of course, that was centuries ago lol!

You concur tho, that this is likely the carwash? Sure fits the bill.

 

[roseofsharon]

The words reference the defense theory that TLM asked MR to stop the car, and leave to allow TLM to talk to VS to calm her down, as she was afraid of MR.

Their theory is that MR walked away from the car, and he returned to learn that TLM had killed VS, so he wasn't there when VS was murdered.

TLM now admits she did kill VS..........not MR.

Thank you for clarifying. I understand now what you mean in your post. I thought you meant that there was a link regarding him being in a different location, as in miles away. :seeya:

 

[Ardy]

Starting with the guy sitting in the prisoner's box who chose to do and say absolutely nothing for 3 years, hiding and destroying evidence, instead of leading LE to the evidence that might have backed up this farce of a story that he's expecting 12 intelligent people to believe after leaving that beautiful child's body to lay there and rot for three long months. Whjile simultaneously running around town suggesting that her own mother was at fault. And in doing so, possibly eliminating the DNA evidence that would prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that he raped that child...twice. Or that he didn't.

He didn't give a flying fig about that innocent little girl that he helped to dispose of in a rock pile. Still doesn't. He only cares about his own sorry *advertiser censored**.

What a fine upstanding citizen he turned out to be....not.

MOO

Not quite true............

MR did lie and deny involvement from the date of abduction until the date of arrest. After that, he has remained silent on the advice of his lawyers, given that he was accused by TLM of murdering VS.

In his legal situation, he couldn't very well talk to anyone but his lawyer.

There has been no evidence presented to date, that MR raped VS.

There is no evidence presented to date, that MR was the type of deviant who would kidnap, rape and murder a little girl.

No criminal past, no complaints about him to police, no ex-girlfriends talking about a sexual deviant personality.........nothing.

Unless there is some evidence of the contrary, I will keep an open mind and not accuse someone of something I know nothing about.

 

[Ardy]

Starting with the guy sitting in the prisoner's box who chose to do and say absolutely nothing for 3 years, hiding and destroying evidence, instead of leading LE to the evidence that might have backed up this farce of a story that he's expecting 12 intelligent people to believe after leaving that beautiful child's body to lay there and rot for three long months. Whjile simultaneously running around town suggesting that her own mother was at fault. And in doing so, possibly eliminating the DNA evidence that would prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that he raped that child...twice. Or that he didn't.

He didn't give a flying fig about that innocent little girl that he helped to dispose of in a rock pile. Still doesn't. He only cares about his own sorry *advertiser censored**.

What a fine upstanding citizen he turned out to be....not.

MOO

Not quite true............

MR did lie and deny involvement from the date of abduction until the date of arrest. After that, he has remained silent on the advice of his lawyers, given that he was accused by TLM of murdering VS.

In his legal situation, he couldn't very well talk to anyone but his lawyer.

There has been no evidence presented to date, that MR raped VS.

There is no evidence presented to date, that MR was the type of deviant who would kidnap, rape and murder a little girl.

No criminal past, no complaints about him to police, no ex-girlfriends talking about a sexual deviant personality.........nothing.

Unless there is some evidence of the contrary, I will keep an open mind and not accuse someone of something unproven.

 

[Macright]

Some of the most heinous crimes have been solved via a traffic ticket.:twocents:

that I understand but the point of my post was the fact that not only did he place himself in front of security camera's but he stopped for drugs, cash and a Timmies...if his intention was to kidnap...rape and murder a small child he sure was not in any hurry....now if he had stopped for a stiff drink I could understand... just throwing this out there but the fact that TLM stated that Tori was sitting on the back floor has made me wonder just when the back seat was missing from this car...was it even there at the time of the event or previously taken out...

 

[daisy.faithfull]

Not quite true............

MR did lie and deny involvement from the date of abduction until the date of arrest. After that, he has remained silent on the advice of his lawyers, given that he was accused by TLM of murdering VS.

In his legal situation, he couldn't very well talk to anyone but his lawyer.

There has been no evidence presented to date, that MR raped VS.

There is no evidence presented to date, that MR was the type of deviant who would kidnap, rape and murder a little girl.

No criminal past, no complaints about him to police, no ex-girlfriends talking about a sexual deviant personality.........nothing.

Unless there is some evidence of the contrary, I will keep an open mind and not accuse someone of something I know nothing about.

With all due respect, technically whether we believe her or not, TLMs testimony has been entered into evidence, therefor there is evidence of his involvement in the crime. Moo

 

[Ardy]

Way to go ME........editing my post with a different ending.....and posting both.....lol

If a past post is causing problems.............

The jist of it was that the evidence is coming out and we are following it.

Some of us lean one way.........and some the other.

None of us know enough to be sure of anything right now...............

But we can imagine that if the jury is also..........some this way and some the other.....

It might be tough to get them all to agree............either way.

 

[swedie]

She and Rafferty would often speak to each other on the phone while she was held at a youth detention centre in London, Ont.

He also visited her on a number of occasions and during her appearances at the Woodstock courthouse.

She said Rafferty kept trying to ensure that she knew what taking the blame for the murder actually meant.

McClintic said he asked her: "You realize what that would consist of right?" before adding that he "always wanted conjugal visits."

She repeatedly told him not to "worry about it" because she was just an "18-year-old junkie."

"The last time I saw him, I will never forget what he said to me," she told the 12-person jury. "I remember touching his face and he looked up and almost laughed at me (saying) 'You will do anything for a little bit of love eh?' "

The two even flirted with the idea of an escape.

"We talked about me trying to leave . . . just taking off, the two of us," said McClintic. "We could be the next Bonnie and Clyde."

Rafferty, dressed in a grey suit, often shook his head and even scoffed during her testimony. The majority of the time, he could be seen writing notes down onto a yellow legal pad.


http://www.canada.com/news/Tori+Sta...ything+video/6300744/story.html#ixzz1qS6dmn5o

I am sure hoping those phones were tapped in the detention centre and visitations recorded. There is witness who is coming forward with experience in wiretapping. Maybe we will get clearer insight as to who lies better. I wonder if MR will scoff at that evidence (if the Crown has it) like he did when TLM gave this information on the stand. :moo:

 

[Ardy]

With all due respect, technically whether we believe her or not, TLMs testimony has been entered into evidence, therefor there is evidence of his involvement in the crime. Moo

I agree, except I think the phrase "possible involvement" would be fair.

 

[swedie]

TLM says the knife was used to cut out stained portions of the now missing back seat. If that is the case, then its possible that the blade had evidence on it such as you've suggested. Possibly blood from Tori, or blood from Tori mixed with MR. I have to think as well that its possible that maybe there was a transfer of fiber from the seat to the blade as the chunks were cut out? I am sure that MR probably washed off the knife to remove evidence but its possible something very minute was there that he did not see or which was not visible to the naked eye which forensics were able to uncover. :moo:

Especially if it was a folding knife. DNA and blood could get into those tiny intricate hidden areas. MR screwed up in so many areas of trying to cover his hiney, I doubt he thought anything of cleaning up the knife. He could have just tossed it like all the other evidence. Just don't think he was that smart thought. JMHO

 

[Ardy]

Thanks for posting that Swedie...........

I don't know what prison TLM was being held at, but I would be surprised if it wasn't a maximum security detention centre.

I have visited a couple of Provincial detention centres and they are all maximum security.

They hold people for everything from just arrested and awaiting a bail hearing, to short sentences, to people serving weekends, to those awaiting trial for murder...........and everything in between.

When you visit these places...........you don't reach up and touch their face.

There is plate glass between the visitor and prisoner. You talk to them by phone in front of every window seat. The calls are monitored. The only way to talk in private.......is to cup your hands over your mouth and form the words without making any sound. People don't do hold long conversations that way because it is rather obvious.

Where was TLM being held that MR could touch her face.........and whisper sweet nothings into her ear........like............I always wanted conjugal visits.

What is up with that comment? If he really said that........he is one weird duck for sure.

I should point out that the people I was visiting weren't in for anything serious..........just waiting for a court date for a minor scuffle.