17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #26

[BiancaS]

This may seem like a small detail to most, but to me it's huge.

GZ didn't call 911. He called the nonemergency number. It could have been an hour or who knows how long before LE showed up. I believe GZ thought he would have a long wait before there was any response, and felt the need to track Trayvon because no one from LE would be there anytime soon. And in GZ's mindset, this young man might commit a crime and then be out of there before the non emergency response arrived.

To me, that's important.

He was told that officers were on the way twice during the phone call. We're not talking New York City, on the way means they will be there shortly. In fact, they arrived about the same time as the shot was being fired, killing Trayvon Martin, just minutes after GZ completed his phone call. Walking in the rain while black is not a crime.

 

[Karmady]

Good points, but then again, there was a huge amount of public attention focused on Danielle Van Dam's murder, and David Westerfield's attorney did not waive.

Of course, that didn't work out so well for him.

OTOH, I am pretty sure I remember after the trial the prosecution saying they were processing evidence up until the last minute.

So maybe that was a wise move on Steven Feldman's part.

But then again, I don't see GZ's prosecution relying so much on trace evidence like fibers as in DW's case.

And why would GZ need so much time to prepare a defense? Isn't his defense self-defense/SYG? Seems pretty straightforward to me.

But I'm not a lawyer.

I didn't follow that case, but I'm generally familiar with it. I don't think it was exactly the same kind of attention with all of the racial/political issues swirling around this case and the extreme nationwide media and public focus. I mean I heard about the Van Dam case, but nowhere near the extent I've heard about this one.

Plus, I think that, given the nature of the crime, there wasn't a large divide on what people thought should happen to him. I know most on WS feel that GZ should go to jail for life or worse, but I don't think that's the sentiment of every single person who hears about it. I think IRL, it's more of a 70-30 split and getting closer rather than farther apart from it's peak with the "racial slur" tape, etc. Child molester/killers, otoh, are more universally hated than just plain old killers. And I know that Trayvon was a minor, but I do think that b/c he's a male, was 17 and was not sexually assualted by a pervert, it's just different as far as the general public are concerned.

And, as you say, look how no delay turned out in Van Dam.

The forensic evidence is a good point, too. But here, GZ has admitted the shooting, so there is probably not too much evidence beyond the autopsy and some related trajectory/gsr issues that need to get done and come in. So delay isn't going to help with that. Hopefully, the eyewitnesses are locked in and so forth.

And to your last point about what does the defense really need? Probably not that much, but there is ALWAYS a way to drag it out even just with discovery, experts, scheduling, etc. And here, with the preliminary hearing, which also requires discovery and evidence. I would think that if MOM (is that what we're calling him?) wants to take his time, he can make sure that he doesn't see a jury for well over a year or more, at least. Probably a lot longer if he is really trying. jmoo

 

[Isabelle]

Be that as it may, it was Trayvon who was screaming in pain and terror. Also, it is not surprising he would be hurt in a scuffle that he started. The ME on Nancy Grace said a nose can be broken from firing a gun when it kicks back and I believe, if his nose was broken that is what caused it. I do not believe that Trayvon punched him so hard that he broke his nose.

I agree completely about the gun causing a nose injury. The cheap gun he used has a history of a not so nice kick.

 

[ThoughtFox]

Thanks. Yes, I know the Constitution guarantees the right to a speedy trial. My question was, what benefit would GZ gain from waiving this right?

IIRC his lawyer said he didn't see the trial starting this year, or for at least a year, or something like that. I interpret that to mean that he will advise GZ to waive his right to a speedy trial.

So what would be the benefit to him for doing so? I would think the defense would want to get the thing to trial ASAP to give the prosecution less time to gather more evidence.

But I'm not a lawyer.

Well, the Prosecution has lots of evidence right now, so more time wouldn't exactly help them. They know exactly what their case will be, while the defense might want more time to get to know George and what his strengths and weaknesses are. As we were talking about the other day, in Stand Your Ground cases the defendent usually has to testify and give his reasons for defending himself. This could be an indication that the attorney thinks that George will need plenty of coaching time before he is ready to face the Jury.

And I'm not a lawyer either, but after reading lots of cases over the years I can say that the tendency of defense attorneys is to delay, delay, delay and then delay some more. If this drags on for a year or more, you will probably be surprised with the reasons the attorney will give for delays, everything from illnesses of the defendent or his family members to things that happen with the public.

As time goes by, witnesses might move out of state or their memories fade. The more a witness wanders off from their original story on the witness stand, the better for the defense who can pounce on that.

 

[Isabelle]

Exposed....like they have a disease or something?

He doesn't even know....so he has a problem with people he doesn't know? Oh right, we know what happens when George meets someone he doesn't recognize don't we? Maybe the other people there need protection from him!

I think there are deep issues that need to be explored to understand the person.

 

[ThoughtFox]

Exposed....like they have a disease or something?

He doesn't even know....so he has a problem with people he doesn't know? Oh right, we know what happens when George meets someone he doesn't recognize don't we? Maybe the other people there need protection from him!

Yes, we know about his . . . uh . . . people skills. :angel:

:jail:

 

[jaded cat]

Who said the women saw GZ's swollen nose at night?

Rodriguez's wife Audria also said she saw the bandages and a third neighbor, who spoke only on condition of anonymity, agreed with the Rodriguez couple's account. "I saw two bandages on the back of his head, and his nose was all swollen up," said the witness, who had watched from a nearby second-floor window.


http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/s...,5993690.story
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This was in your post #56.

The phrasing of the article led me to believe she was referring to that night. If it was the next day, in broad daylight, after conducting my little home experiment today, I don't see how she could recognize a swollen nose unless she knew him well.

 

[grandmaj]

This may seem like a small detail to most, but to me it's huge.

GZ didn't call 911. He called the nonemergency number. It could have been an hour or who knows how long before LE showed up. I believe GZ thought he would have a long wait before there was any response, and felt the need to track Trayvon because no one from LE would be there anytime soon. And in GZ's mindset, this young man might commit a crime and then be out of there before the non emergency response arrived.

To me, that's important.

Bolded by me. At 1:31 and again at 2:53 in the call he is clearly told that Officers are on the way.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFRP545ZhP8"]Official George Zimmerman 911 Call (Trayvon Martin) - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Isabelle]

Ok, if he thought his neighbors needed protecting, why did he call the non-emergency number? It can't be both ways. The dispatcher told him police were on their way.

He is not a LEO. He reported something he thought was suspicious. He fulfilled his duty at that point. When people call the non-emergency number to report something, the police are not obligated to rush to that location. They may be answering actual 911 calls, responding to real emergencies.

GZ didn't tell the dispatcher that TM was doing anything illegal at the time he called, or while he was on the line with him. GZ thought he looked suspicious because that's his mind set. It was laid out quite clearly in his conversation with the dispatcher.

The fact that he called the Non-Emergency is at the core of the matter.

I don't think 911 would do this, but since GZ called so many times is it possible that they told him to call the non-emergency number instead of the emergency one? It's so rare that I always call 911 and they ask if it is an emergency.

 

[IzzyBlanche]

I didn't follow that case, but I'm generally familiar with it. I don't think it was exactly the same kind of attention with all of the racial/political issues swirling around this case and the extreme nationwide media and public focus. I mean I heard about the Van Dam case, but nowhere near the extent I've heard about this one.

Nationwide attention no, you're right, but around here it was all anyone could talk about, and neither DW nor GZ were/will be tried on a nationwide scale, know what I mean?

Plus, I think that, given the nature of the crime, there wasn't a large divide on what people thought should happen to him. I know most on WS feel that GZ should go to jail for life or worse, but I don't think that's the sentiment of every single person who hears about it. I think IRL, it's more of a 70-30 split and getting closer rather than farther apart from it's peak with the "racial slur" tape, etc. Child molester/killers, otoh, are more universally hated than just plain old killers. And I know that Trayvon was a minor, but I do think that b/c he's a male, was 17 and was not sexually assualted by a pervert, it's just different as far as the general public are concerned.

I was discussing the Van Dam case at the time on the San Diego Union Tribune website, and I would say the guilty vs not guilty split was about 60%/40% before, during, and after the trial. IIRC correctly, DW had plenty of defenders here on Websleuths as well. I'm just saying there may have been more of a divide between people who followed the case closely than among those who didn't, both locally and nationwide.

And, as you say, look how no delay turned out in Van Dam.

The forensic evidence is a good point, too. But here, GZ has admitted the shooting, so there is probably not too much evidence beyond the autopsy and some related trajectory/gsr issues that need to get done and come in. So delay isn't going to help with that. Hopefully, the eyewitnesses are locked in and so forth.

And to your last point about what does the defense really need? Probably not that much, but there is ALWAYS a way to drag it out even just with discovery, experts, scheduling, etc. And here, with the preliminary hearing, which also requires discovery and evidence. I would think that if MOM (is that what we're calling him?) wants to take his time, he can make sure that he doesn't see a jury for well over a year or more, at least. Probably a lot longer if he is really trying. jmoo

Thanks for the discussion on the topic, I really appreciate it. :seeya:

 

[Montjoy]

I noticed GZ bought men's briefs but 2 different sizes , medium and large, what's that about ? :waitasec:

The large size allows him to holster his water pistol during his Neighborhood Watch patrols of his cell.

 

[Karmady]

Nationwide attention no, you're right, but around here it was all anyone could talk about, and neither DW nor GZ were/will be tried on a nationwide scale, know what I mean?



I was discussing the Van Dam case at the time on the San Diego Union Tribune website, and I would say the guilty vs not guilty split was about 60%/40% before, during, and after the trial. IIRC correctly, DW had plenty of defenders here on Websleuths as well. I'm just saying there may have been more of a divide between people who followed the case closely than among those who didn't, both locally and nationwide.



Thanks for the discussion on the topic, I really appreciate it. :seeya:

Back 'atcha. I probably shouldn't have commented on Van Dam since I don't know much about it and I'm sure you're 100% correct. I still agree with what I said about THIS case, though lol. I haven't seen this much racial tension in a very long time, if ever. jmoo

 

[Cher352]

Question for the legal types here: what would be the benefit of George waiving his right to a speedy trial?

TIA.

I do wish Richard Hornsby was around to weight in on this.

Seems like I am never on-line when he is here. If any of you are next time he comes here please ask him this question. Thanks!

(I do so wish we had a lawyer thread for this case)

 

[BiancaS]

The large size allows him to holster his water pistol during his Neighborhood Watch patrols of his cell.

LOL. One can hope that he will catch a large rat that can take the place of the 100 pound dog that so often accompanied him on his rounds (according to the authority of all things GZ, FT himself). We do want George to feel at home!!

 

[Chris_Texas]

Would being in close quarters to each other make any difference? If GZ wasn't able to extend his arm to fire, could the gun recoil? :waitasec:

Sure, a 9mm has some recoil, but unless the thing caught you full in the face -- and it's hard to imagine that happening -- it probably wouldn't break your nose.

In short I think NG has watched a few too many youtube videos of people firing hand cannons and doesn't realize that there is a huge difference between, say, a 9mm and even a 44 mag.

 

[Chris_Texas]

This may seem like a small detail to most, but to me it's huge.

GZ didn't call 911. He called the nonemergency number. It could have been an hour or who knows how long before LE showed up. I believe GZ thought he would have a long wait before there was any response, and felt the need to track Trayvon because no one from LE would be there anytime soon. And in GZ's mindset, this young man might commit a crime and then be out of there before the non emergency response arrived.

To me, that's important.

911 told him an officer was on the way clean back when he suggested Trayvon had pulled something from his waistband.

 

[jaded cat]

I just listened to the call at the link provided to refresh my memory. While in the beginning the dispatcher said to keep an eye on what TM was doing, the question "are you following him", answer GZ "yes", statement dispatcher, "we don't need you to do that", answer GZ "OK", is at the very end of the conversation.

My problem with this call is GZ's credibility. I don't believe him when he says TM is fiddling with his waist band. I also don't believe TM walked up to GZ's truck and stared him down. Nopey, nope nope, don't believe it.

JMHO!
MOO!
IMHOO!

 

[Concerned Papa]

Bolded by me. At 1:31 and again at 2:53 in the call he is clearly told that Officers are on the way.

Official George Zimmerman 911 Call (Trayvon Martin) - YouTube

He wasn't exactly a rookie placing these calls either. He knew what to expect in response time. Here's FORTY SEVEN of his calls. Take a look at the times of each:

http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/327330-george-zimmerrman-911-call-history.html#document/p44

 

[fran]

I'm going to close up for tonite folks. See you all tomorrow.

:seeya:

fran

 

[mercuriod]

This may seem like a small detail to most, but to me it's huge.

GZ didn't call 911. He called the nonemergency number. It could have been an hour or who knows how long before LE showed up. I believe GZ thought he would have a long wait before there was any response, and felt the need to track Trayvon because no one from LE would be there anytime soon. And in GZ's mindset, this young man might commit a crime and then be out of there before the non emergency response arrived.

To me, that's important.

First of all GZ was told TWICE while on the phone with non-emergency dispatch that officers were ON THE WAY, so GZ KNEW is was not going to be an hour. GZ "felt" the need to track Trayvon because GZ did not want another of THOSE a$$hole's to get away, and by damn GZ was not going to let him. Now just WHAT is THOSE to GZ, well he told us right on that call......BLACK.

I strongly suspect that GZ didn't call 911 that night because he had probably been warned by police that if he kept abusing the 911 system with his silly and unfounded repeated calls then charges could be brought against him, so he switched tactics and started abusing the non-emergency number.