George Zimmerman's Injuries #1

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Post hoc propter hoc is defined as thinking "Since that event followed this one, that event must have been caused by this one."

I have not seen anybody here say that following TM caused GZ to shoot TM.

It's more that if an armed person has the mindset that F-in A-s must not get away he has more motive to follow and to confront the alleged F-A which may lead to tragic consequences than an unarmed person with no known grudges against the armed person has to attack someone he's never seen before.
 
Typically the person who calls 911 is the guy who holds the highest regard for fellow humans, just because someone has a gun doesn't mean they're out to kill. I carry a gun on a daily basis and have been for the last 12 years. 10 years of that it was as an armed member of the military - does that make me a bad guy?

I did not use anyone's words in my previous statement other than the detective's that I'm aware of. I haven't seen the official police reports I'm unaware of any inconsistencies in Zimmerman's story, this case has shown me how much the media can be trusted so I have not even watched the local news stories, and will not until this whole thing is done.

There is a media thread above. Looks like you have a lot of catching up to do. If GZ had high regards for LE he would have listened to them when he was trained and told not to follow a suspect. And don't ever bring a gun it's in the NWP rules. This is not an issue about a person carrying a gun. This is an issue about a person who appears irresponsible and somehow was able to get a gun. jmo
 
"post hoc ergo prompter hoc" translates to "before this, because of this." You can read more about it here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_hoc_ergo_propter_hoc

Thank you for the wikipedia education. "Order of events" is what you are speaking. Not me. I am speaking of Zimmerman's credibility. His own words on the 911 call. He says okay about not following. He does anyway. Period. Also, he makes accusations about Trayvon on the 911 tape that turn out to be wrong. Zimmerman credibility -2.

jmo
 
He was not on patrol that night, so the NWP "rules" (which are more guidelines than law) are irrelevant. Being followed is not a reason to be fearing for your life unless you're aware of a credible threat, which I have not heard of a report saying there was a threat other than the people who believe Zimmerman should fry without a trial. Being afraid because someone is watching you alone is a bit paranoid if you ask me. If he were afraid why didn't he run when his girlfriend told him to? Why did he simply put up his hoodie and "walk fast?" It's my opinion that he wasn't afraid, his girlfriend was.

If it's not paranoid to call the cops when someone is just walking down the street it's not paranoid to be afraid if a stranger is watching you.

It is creepy behavior and there are plenty of instances where creepy strangers turned out to be muggers, pervs or otherwise scary characters.
 
Post hoc propter hoc is defined as thinking "Since that event followed this one, that event must have been caused by this one."

I have not seen anybody here say that following TM caused GZ to shoot TM.

It's more that if an armed person has the mindset that F-in A-s must not get away he has more motive to follow and to confront the alleged F-A which may lead to tragic consequences than an unarmed person with no known grudges against the armed person has to attack someone he's never seen before.

I said it about making the assertion that "following someone" leads to "starting a fight with someone." They're not related at all due to the events that happened between them, such as losing sight of the person you're following.

You have not stated it, and I haven't implied that you have. The other person who was talking about following was making the assertion that because Zimmerman followed Trayvon (for a very brief period of time), he must have started the fight. That doesn't make sense without more details to link them, and given that one of the events left out in the chain of events is that Zimmerman lost track of Martin, it's even more absurd to say, logically, that one led to the other.
 
He was not on patrol that night, so the NWP "rules" (which are more guidelines than law) are irrelevant. Being followed is not a reason to be fearing for your life unless you're aware of a credible threat, which I have not heard of a report saying there was a threat other than the people who believe Zimmerman should fry without a trial. Being afraid because someone is watching you alone is a bit paranoid if you ask me. If he were afraid why didn't he run when his girlfriend told him to? Why did he simply put up his hoodie and "walk fast?" It's my opinion that he wasn't afraid, his girlfriend was.

This is way off topic and it's the injury thread. Let me say, again. There is no patrol sanctioned by NWP....it's watch only. The act of calling it in is, in fact, a NWP function. GZ did not follow the rules he was aware of. So following someone in the dark on a rainy night should not put one in fear. That would mean this is directed to white males only, not a young black male or a woman. Obviously TM is dead so he had a right to be afraid, didn't he? jmo
 
in GZ's story his credibility will be nil. Add to that the evidence that only he was an actor that night, only he wrongly identified a criminal, called 911, expressed frustration that the a$%holes always get away, followed said a$%hole despite being told not to and then confronted him as shown by the gf's call where he pops up again surprising TM.

No way would this prosecutor with her conviction record bring this case if she wasn't confident the evidence tells the story many of us here see clearly, that of an over-vigligant vigalante who sees a black boy walking, instantaneously decides he is suspicious, up to no good and on drugs (for good measure). In GZ's mind TM is always the criminal he decided he was. He was going to apprehend and detain him and be a big hero. This one was not going to get away. Not until after he shoots and kills him does he discover he doesn't have a weapon or proceeds of a robbery so then he needs this story that TM confronted him and, for no earthly reason and despite no history or propensity toward violence, decides to attempt to kill this stranger. Does not compute.

The standard of proof is not "absolutely had to happen this way" it's beyond a reasonable doubt. To me, it's beyond almost any doubt that GZ was the cause of every effect that occurred. He was wrong about everything and proceeded on that wrong assumption until he caused a wrongful death over it. Once it's established that it was TM screaming for his life and GZ aiming the gun at him and shooting while TM is doing nothing but pleading, I think that should about do it.

Reasonable poeple can easily conclude that what GZ did at every step was further and further from reasonable. I know it's not illegal to follow someone. But if you call 911 on them and then follow them with a gun because you've already decided they were a criminal a reasonable person will assume you mean to do something when you find them, especially when you have already expressed your angst over these a&^holes getting away. This is simple logic here and I think most people will stop "following" GZ's series of actions once he gets out of his truck with his gun. Most people will say, OK he called 911 even though there wasn't actually anything suspicious about this person but he's super sensitive or whatever so he called and police were on the way and so all he had to do was wait for them to show up and find out TM was staying there. Or, he could have asked TM himself while he was on the phone with 911 and TM was walking by his car. Gee, now that would have been reasonable for an armed adult neighborhood watchman type guy, ask the kid who he is, if he's lost, needs help etc.

GZ decided at every turn to act less and less reasonably and by the time he exits his car with a weapon he has, to many reasonable people, decided to apprehend and detain the person he has followed as that person is a criminal and the rest have gotten away. Even when you're engaged in lawful activity you are responsible for the foreseeable consequences of those acts. However, detaining a person is not legal if you're not a real cop. Now, everyone can say we don't really know what happened. But I think the lack of real injury which GZ came up with when he needed a self defense story rather than a capturing a criminal story will undo him. He was not injured in any serious way AND his stories conflict and also make it impossible that he was the last one screaming on the 911 tape as his story is that at that point TM has his mouth and nose covered and he was swallowing blood and couldn't breathe. Two experts and both parents have said it was Trayvon screaming for his life. I say thank you for that tape as I think it will ultimately be the kind of proof that anyone can understand, people with life experience can hear that and know it's not a person screaming in pain from a fight, it's a primal scream, the kind of scream that occurs when a young boy sees a gun pointed at him and knows this crazy guy is going to pull the trigger and kill him-which he did and that's when the screaming ended, suddenly and forever.

Again, you don't even need a story for this. You just need to "poke holes" in the opposing side's story. A *huge* hole in the "fact" that Zimmerman confronted Martin is that there's no proof, that we've seen, that it absolutely had to happen this way. To combine that with Detective Gilbreath stating, on the stand (bail hearing), that he has no evidence to say that Zimmerman confronted or attacked Martin, is huge. How do you come to a conclusion with no evidence to support it? How can you ask a jury to accept a conclusion based on no evidence?
 
If it's not paranoid to call the cops when someone is just walking down the street it's not paranoid to be afraid if a stranger is watching you.

It is creepy behavior and there are plenty of instances where creepy strangers turned out to be muggers, pervs or otherwise scary characters.

As far as I'm aware no one has said Zimmerman was paranoid, and if they were to do so I would probably agree, but rightfully so given the recent criminal activity in the neighborhood. However, there was no reason for Martin to be afraid of someone who is watching him, why didn't he call 911 if he was afraid?
 
I said it about making the assertion that "following someone" leads to "starting a fight with someone." They're not related at all due to the events that happened between them, such as losing sight of the person you're following.

You have not stated it, and I haven't implied that you have. The other person who was talking about following was making the assertion that because Zimmerman followed Trayvon (for a very brief period of time), he must have started the fight. That doesn't make sense without more details to link them, and given that one of the events left out in the chain of events is that Zimmerman lost track of Martin, it's even more absurd to say, logically, that one led to the other.

Well I must disagree. Latin notwithstanding, the following and shooting would not be related at all if it wasn't the same person doing both in the course of five minutes.

Now it is the same person doing both within the same short sequence of events.

I already said that I didn't see anybody saying that the following led to the shooting.

You will note that saying that the follower is the more likely person to have started a fight is not equivalent to the fallacy you quoted since saying so does not assert a causal relationship between the following and the shooting. It simply points out that the follower-shooter has shown that he has a negative attitude and ill will towards the person he followed and shot. The other person has no known reason to become unprovokedly hostile towards the shooter.

The connection is in the motivation hat gets someone to follow another person armed with hollow point bullets. Those F'A's always get away. Well, this one didn't.

During the time he lost track of TM he was most probably searching for him since F-A's must not get away. But that's just MOO.
 
As far as I'm aware no one has said Zimmerman was paranoid, and if they were to do so I would probably agree, but rightfully so given the recent criminal activity in the neighborhood. However, there was no reason for Martin to be afraid of someone who is watching him, why didn't he call 911 if he was afraid?

This is the GZ injury thread only and we have gone way off topic.

AJ, the defense thread would be better otherwise these posts will go bye bye. There are some good posts here I'd hate to see flushed. lol jmo
 
As far as I'm aware no one has said Zimmerman was paranoid, and if they were to do so I would probably agree, but rightfully so given the recent criminal activity in the neighborhood. However, there was no reason for Martin to be afraid of someone who is watching him, why didn't he call 911 if he was afraid?

Well, of course there was reason to be afraid of someone . It could have been a mugger or a perv or a watchman with a gun who would shoot him.

Oh, wait, it was.
 
This is way off topic and it's the injury thread. Let me say, again. There is no patrol sanctioned by NWP....it's watch only. The act of calling it in is, in fact, a NWP function. GZ did not follow the rules he was aware of. So following someone in the dark on a rainy night should not put one in fear. That would mean this is directed to white males only, not a young black male or a woman. Obviously TM is dead so he had a right to be afraid, didn't he? jmo

I'm confused here, are you stating that because he called it in he must have been acting as something the community didn't have? He could not have called it in as a concerned citizen of the community? Before he called it in he should've returned to his house, thus losing sight of the person he thought was suspicious, and put his pistol away? I'm also thinking you forgot a sentence, what does race have to do with the rest of your post? Of course I can always reverse your final sentence and say "Zimmerman ended up shooting someone to save his own life, it's a good thing he had it on him wasn't it?" but then we're in the tired old circular argument that has been going on since February.
 
This is the GZ injury thread only and we have gone way off topic.

AJ, the defense thread would be better otherwise these posts will go bye bye. jmo

Sorry for being OT...

It's going to take time to get used to a topic specific format again.

So, about Zimmerman's injuries...

Wonder if the State got the medical reports from O'mara already and when we're going to see them in discovery.
 
or logic to Trayvon attacking GZ. It was GZ who was fixated on TM, not the other way around. I'm sure TM hardly gave him a though after he was out of his sight and back into his conversation with his friend, at least if he has the same attention span as my teenagers! Only GZ had a reason, a motive to confront TM. Everything he did was about ensuring TM didn't get away. Of course he was trying to prevent that-there is no other reason for him to have been at that location unless he was attempting to apprehend and detain TM.

Many crimes don't have witnesses but there are still convictions. The idea that "no one knows what really happened" is almost always true. But we count on citizen jurors understanding, through their life experience and common sense, how to figure out a story through lies and subterfuge, especially when the story if fairly simple. GZ decides TM is criminal, calls 911, TM is walking away, GZ is sick of criminals getting away, takes gun and follows TM. What happens next? What makes the most sense? TM, with no awareness of GZ's existence and no clue who or what he is and with no history of violence or fighting suddenly decided to attempt to kill this stranger for no reason. OR GZ finds TM, startles him, TM moves away, GZ grabs his arm or sleeve and maybe turns him to try and do a bouncer move or frisk him..who knows exactly what script GZ was following other than not letting this criminal get away. At some point TM struggles and maybe knocks GZ off balance and lands on top fo him. GZ goes for his gun or maybe already had it out, but you know when TM sees it as those screams tell me one thing, someone thinks they're going to be shot and killed and they were right.



Post hoc propter hoc is defined as thinking "Since that event followed this one, that event must have been caused by this one."

I have not seen anybody here say that following TM caused GZ to shoot TM.

It's more that if an armed person has the mindset that F-in A-s must not get away he has more motive to follow and to confront the alleged F-A which may lead to tragic consequences than an unarmed person with no known grudges against the armed person has to attack someone he's never seen before.
 
and didn't notice where I was...sorry, forgot we have all these separate places now-have to go segment my head better...



Sorry for being OT...

It's going to take time to get used to a topic specific format again.

So, about Zimmerman's injuries...

Wonder if the State got the medical reports from O'mara already and when we're going to see them in discovery.
 
I'm confused here, are you stating that because he called it in he must have been acting as something the community didn't have? He could not have called it in as a concerned citizen of the community? Before he called it in he should've returned to his house, thus losing sight of the person he thought was suspicious, and put his pistol away? I'm also thinking you forgot a sentence, what does race have to do with the rest of your post? Of course I can always reverse your final sentence and say "Zimmerman ended up shooting someone to save his own life, it's a good thing he had it on him wasn't it?" but then we're in the tired old circular argument that has been going on since February.

Then again, if he hadn't had the gun with him he might not have felt so brave and would have stayed in his truck rather than follow a scary person who checked him out with his hands in his waistband and was probably up to no good and on drugs.

If so, he would not have been injured and would not have shot anyone and would now have finished his studies for the AA degree and be getting ready for the law school.

So was it good that he had it with him?
 
Sorry for being OT...

It's going to take time to get used to a topic specific format again.

So, about Zimmerman's injuries...

Wonder if the State got the medical reports from O'mara already and when we're going to see them in discovery.

BBM: Me, too. Guilty as charged. lol
 
and didn't notice where I was...sorry, forgot we have all these separate places now-have to go segment my head better...




You did have some good posts even though they were in the wrong thread. lol
 
I don't think George Zimmerman's "injuries" are going to be a pivotal consideration for a jury once they hear:

  • George Zimmerman's statements to LE saying he was "attacked" by TM "near where the sidewalks meet" in a time frame that was BEFORE he even got off the phone with 911.

  • Evidence, according to Zimmerman's OWN ATTORNEY, indicating the body was found over 170 feet away from "where the sidewalks meet".
  • A witness for the State who says:
From the Bond Hearing recording at the [1:37:15] mark:

GILBREATH: We have a witness statement who observed…..that was on the perimeter of this…..who observed shadows or figures, excuse me, running by her residence.

O’MARA: Do you know which way, or who they were or anything?

GILBREATH: I cannot identify who they were, but it was at the same time frame this occurred.

http://www.wral.com/news/video/11004815/#/vid11004815

  • A witness with verified phone records who says:
"Trayvon said, 'What are you following me for,' and the man said, 'What are you doing here.' Next thing I hear is somebody pushing, and somebody pushed Trayvon because the head set just fell. I called him again, and he didn't answer the phone."

The line went dead. Besides screams heard on 911 calls that night as Martin and Zimmerman scuffled, those were the last words he said.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-ma...-crucial-phone/story?id=15959017#.T6RaysWmGHg
  • A Nationally recognized voice expert saying those horrifying screams were NOT George Zimmerman's.

IMO, a jury will connect these dots readily and draw a logical conclusion regarding "injuries" of a defendant who was CLEARED by EMT's in a matter of minutes at the scene.

TMCleared-1-1.png
 
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