Armchair Psych Profile and JH's Background

[gitana1]

But why would they do that, at their own expense? He was no longer a student, correct? Not filling out the forms completely, despite their telling him he needed to, 'tied their hands'. He made no DIRECT threat YET. What where they suppose to do?

They can't call Mom and Dad. He was over 17. They can't call the police yet, because there has yet to be a direct threat. Even if he said to Fenton, "I am angry and I want others to pay." That is NOT a direct threat!

She thought he was a threat and did what she could. It is sad that the stop gaps we have now didn't alert others to the danger this man is/was. But it is no fault of those around him. IMO I think he was smart enough NOT to make DIRECT threats.

That is what it comes down to. Direct threats. As of yet, we haven't heard that he did that.

Yeah, it's silly. How can a school afford to hire PIs to follow weird students around after they drop out? And what are they to do with the info? I found that ludicrous.

Fenton called the BETA TEAM about JH . This lead me to understand that JH still a student at that time at UC because the BETA Team and Fenton should only be responsible for students at that University. BETA Team decided not to pursue JH because he is dropping out so where this go back? To Fenton , as a licensed psychiatrist, she has a duty to warn if JH is exhibiting some behavior that could result to an injury to others.

Okay, I understand. Yes, IF there was a direct threat and Fenton knew of the threat (or should have known of the threat) and did not alert the authorities, she would be liable.

A direct threat would be "I'm going to kill my girlfriend tomorrow. I've decided." Or, "I can't live with the voices anymore. They are telling me I need to destroy my enemies on campus as soon as possible."

It does not look like this is what happened. It looks instead like Fenton had concerns about this guy and wanted to assemble the BETA team to assess him. That is something that would be done in the absence of a direct threat because you would not need a team assessment if there was a direct threat. You would simply call the police and he would be placed on a 72 hour hold, at least, and be assessed at the hospital.

So since Fenton works for the school. and if Fenton knew of the direct threat and did nothing... who will be liable?

The psychiatrist treating the accused Colorado movie theater gunman was so concerned about his behavior that she mentioned it to her colleagues, saying he could potentially be a danger to others,
http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/01/justice/colorado-theater-shooting-psychiatrist/index.html

She would be. But the sentence right after your question shows she did do something and that it was very likely NOT as a result of a direct threat she heard. If it was, she's an idiot, because all she would need to do is call the police.

Again, I highly doubt a direct threat was made. The articles state she talked with her colleagues about this. Are we to believe that neither Fenton nor any one of the team of mental health professionals whose job was to assess risk, actually heard of a direct threat and reported it? Seems unlikely. Again, you don't need a team assessment if there has been a direct threat. You just call the cops.

 

[gitana1]

Nope, it's illegal.

Yeah, but who's going to know?

 

[February]

Thanks Gitana1 :seeya:

 

[songline]

Shadowraiths, still reading from the link you posted above. It's fascinating how many different ways we can look at something! Surprised my question of whether she's his doctor or a school does come into play.

School comes in to be protected. MO
she had was his Dr.but If I was his Mom I would sue both.
Definitly in a nano second.

 

[danzn16]

Fenton called the BETA TEAM about JH . This lead me to understand that JH still a student at that time at UC because the BETA Team and Fenton should only be responsible for students at that University. BETA Team decided not to pursue JH because he is dropping out so where this go back? To Fenton , as a licensed psychiatrist, she has a duty to warn if JH is exhibiting some behavior that could result to an injury to others.

I have personally worked as part of a health care team at a university, not as a psychiatrist though. It is true that we only see the students. However, if one of my patients were to leave the university in the middle of a rehab program with me or they still needed health care in any way, I would still call them and try to follow up with them making sure they know what they need to be doing to heal in the best way that they can. Psychiatry is this plus a whole additional step. You have to think of the patient's health and safety as well as the public's. I don't care that JH was dropping out of school. I still feel that something should have been done, some sort of reach out should have been given to him, some direction provided if she was concerned enough to call together the BETA. She more than likely called it because of concern in behavior/attitude and not any direct threat he made because he would have been committed. Some sort of follow up should be given to students that drop out. There may have been, we just don't know yet. If there wasn't, then I'm going to be absolutely sick.

 

[danzn16]

So since Fenton works for the school. and if Fenton knew of the direct threat and did nothing... who will be liable?

The psychiatrist treating the accused Colorado movie theater gunman was so concerned about his behavior that she mentioned it to her colleagues, saying he could potentially be a danger to others,
http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/01/justice/colorado-theater-shooting-psychiatrist/index.html

Fenton would be liable and so would the school since she is employed by them and likely covered by their medical malpractice insurance.

However it's probably unlikely that he gave a direct threat and she did nothing as it seems she called the BETA task force together and shared what she knew. If it was a direct threat then other people would have known to have done something if she did not.

 

[mister happy]

Poster zvzvzvzv posted a music video OT and so did I.

Oh, thanks :what:. I thought it could be something profound lol.

 

[February]

I have personally worked as part of a health care team at a university, not as a psychiatrist though. It is true that we only see the students. However, if one of my patients were to leave the university in the middle of a rehab program with me or they still needed health care in any way, I would still call them and try to follow up with them making sure they know what they need to be doing to heal in the best way that they can. Psychiatry is this plus a whole additional step. You have to think of the patient's health and safety as well as the public's. I don't care that JH was dropping out of school. I still feel that something should have been done, some sort of reach out should have been given to him, some direction provided if she was concerned enough to call together the BETA. She more than likely called it because of concern in behavior/attitude and not any direct threat he made because he would have been committed. Some sort of follow up should be given to students that drop out. There may have been, we just don't know yet. If there wasn't, then I'm going to be absolutely sick.

Likewise! But i believe we will learn more

This link came in earlier from shadow - Fenton has a June 19, 2012 HPPP-CO Public Disciplinary action but the document to that is not available.
https://www.colorado.gov/dora/licensing/Lookup/PrintLicenseDetails.aspx?cred=423104&contact=457157


HPPP - Healthcare Professions Profiling Program

 

[danzn16]

Yeah, but who's going to know?

If the student ever found out or was told by his parents that the school contacted them then he could sue that school for lots of money. That's who would know. If it never got back to the student and the family didn't sue the school either, then no harm done.

 

[CARIIS]

Poster zvzvzvzv posted a music video OT and so did I.

And with someone with that severity,, Fenton, don't try to say you made a referral and then did not followup with referral to assure he made his first appt -in THIS case , imo , that would be abdonment- no?

She has got some big problems coming up....................

 

[Curious Me]

I have personally worked as part of a health care team at a university, not as a psychiatrist though. It is true that we only see the students. However, if one of my patients were to leave the university in the middle of a rehab program with me or they still needed health care in any way, I would still call them and try to follow up with them making sure they know what they need to be doing to heal in the best way that they can. Psychiatry is this plus a whole additional step. You have to think of the patient's health and safety as well as the public's. I don't care that JH was dropping out of school. I still feel that something should have been done, some sort of reach out should have been given to him, some direction provided if she was concerned enough to call together the BETA. She more than likely called it because of concern in behavior/attitude and not any direct threat he made because he would have been committed. Some sort of follow up should be given to students that drop out. There may have been, we just don't know yet. If there wasn't, then I'm going to be absolutely sick.

Can't a doctor or a school call an emergency number the person listed and just be trying to contact that person? They wouldn't have to tell the reason. "May I leave a message to have him call me?" Legally, I don't know. As a parent, I know it would provide me with a tiny clue. I just feel so bad for the parents, especially that the story of his mother "knowing" morphed all over the news.

 

[gitana1]

If the student ever found out or was told by his parents that the school contacted them then he could sue that school for lots of money. That's who would know. If it never got back to the student and the family didn't sue the school either, then no harm done.

I think the poster was setting up a scenario in which the parent's home is called and a message left as if the caller thought that's where the student was. In other words, if anyone ever complained, all they would have to say is, "Well, this was the number I thought he was at. I didn't know other people had access to the message I left for the student." No one but the caller would know that he or she intended to break the law.

ETA: I don't know what the rules are for mental health professionals when it comes to info you can give out when leaving a message.

 

[CARIIS]

Hi CUrious!

Its (Delusionial thinking) not like a steady thing, they come in and out, (he was bright) so his ability to know that killing people results in prison is congruent. James Holmes knows that.

BUt the joker is not afraid of jail. , in a way I think might be easier (IT IS TOTALLY DIFFERENT ILLINESS!) But if you think of multi personality disorder as being one is James Holmes and the other is the delusion = the joker.
They ARE two totally seperate entities.

I think folks are having trouble with authetically getting that when they are activily delusionial they endorse there delusion C O M P L E T L Y . James would tell us he did not go into a movie theatre and commit the biggest mass murder in years.

And he is not faking ANYTHING, on July 20, James Holmes was the Joker, authentically, in the only place, sadly, it matters......his mind.

And yeh , they can remain delsusionial for long peroids of time, the episodes can be brief, they can go for long stretches of time without being delusional.

And I understand, because for rationial people it is hard to grasp the concept , that James Holmes belived he was the joker !

Stressors real important here, sleep impacts as well !! And, we have all learned that obviously he had been under tremeondous stress since the beginning of June.

 

[jjenny]

I think the poster was setting up a scenario in which the parent's home is called and a message left as if the caller thought that's where the student was. In other words, if anyone ever complained, all they would have to say is, "Well, this was the number I thought he was at. I didn't know other people had access to the message I left for the student." No one but the caller would know that he or she intended to break the law.

ETA: I don't know what the rules are for mental health professionals when it comes to info you can give out when leaving a message.

That scenario would only work if he gave out his parents phone number as a contact number. Which I am pretty sure he didn't. The parents weren't even in the same state.

 

[jjenny]

I have personally worked as part of a health care team at a university, not as a psychiatrist though. It is true that we only see the students. However, if one of my patients were to leave the university in the middle of a rehab program with me or they still needed health care in any way, I would still call them and try to follow up with them making sure they know what they need to be doing to heal in the best way that they can. Psychiatry is this plus a whole additional step. You have to think of the patient's health and safety as well as the public's. I don't care that JH was dropping out of school. I still feel that something should have been done, some sort of reach out should have been given to him, some direction provided if she was concerned enough to call together the BETA. She more than likely called it because of concern in behavior/attitude and not any direct threat he made because he would have been committed. Some sort of follow up should be given to students that drop out. There may have been, we just don't know yet. If there wasn't, then I'm going to be absolutely sick.

Once he dropped out of school, he would become unemployed, with no source of income, and no medical insurance. How could she possibly arrange any psychiatric care for him? Haven't anyone tried to go to the doctor without medical insurance?

 

[shadowraiths]

I think folks are having trouble with authetically getting that when they are activily delusionial they endorse there delusion C O M P L E T L Y .

This is actually, important. If Holmes were floridly psychotic, when he rigged his apartment and shot everyone, there could be a valid argument for NGRI.

 

[February]

Once he dropped out of school, he would become unemployed, with no source of income, and no medical insurance. How could she possibly arrange any psychiatric care for him? Haven't anyone tried to go to the doctor without medical insurance?

possible sources for money :
1. mom n pop from San Diego.
2. Unemployment benefits if he will qualify
3. Sugar Mama ( dont know if he has one )
4. SSI-Social Security Benefits - claim MI Disability

medical insurance
1. SSI
2. State Medical for Disability

You can also go to state run hospitals and dont even have to pay them at all if you have no money..

 

[jjenny]

possible sources for money :
1. mom n pop from San Diego.
2. Unemployment benefits if he will qualify
3. Sugar Mama.
4. Social Security Benefits - claim MI Disability

medical insurance
1. SSI
2. State Medical for Disability

You can also go to state run hospitals and dont even have to pay them at all if you have no money..

He was a student. How was he going to qualify for unemployment benefits? Sugar Mama? Are you serious? MI disability? Even assuming he applied for MI disability and qualified, how long would that take? Why would he have SSI and State Medical for Disability?
And frankly, in the real world, patient has to find a doctor. And when student drops out of school, no one is going to follow them around arranging medical care and living expenses.

 

[February]

He was a student. How was he going to qualify for unemployment benefits? Sugar Mama? Are you serious? MI disability? Even assuming he applied for MI disability and qualified, how long would that take? Why would he have SSI and State Medical for Disability?
And frankly, in the real world, patient has to find a doctor.

When you are officially "disabled" , you can claim SSI benefits from Federal and the Federal will endorse your Medical to the State run Free Medical.

He can qualify for unemployment benefits , if it is not his fault that he lose his last job.

SSI dollar benefits usually take 6 months to process but they have emergency funds that they called if you need some dollars right away.

State Medical will be quick and if he go back to California, he can even get cash, food stamps and medical on the day he'll applied as long as he is carrying doctor's notes.

if you have no private PPO/hmo insurance, you cannot just find your own doctor IMO

 

[CARIIS]

That is so not ok

I do not care if she (doc) could not get her little team “organized". You do not need a team. Give 911 a ring a ding, trust me, LE gets a call from a mental health professional -- -LE would have had him involuntarily admitted (if for nothing else to cover THEIR ****) plus LE might have, when the door was opened, had the opportunity to see guns, boxes of ammo, bullet proof jazz – (you all know what I am saying - whole thing might have been avoided).

Humm interesting now they are saying they could not do anything because he withdrew , but heck, wait a minute here, they had been saying. He was IN the process hummm………..

Moreover, in the hospital - he would have been surrounded by a whole team of folks, would have been in a safe and structured environment, meds, a chance to deescalate
.
At that point, in all likelihood, he was in delusional joker mode (he just bought the assault weapon) I would assume he was pretty agitated at this point (like me at this moment!) He probably would not have had the capacity not to be threatening.

SPECULATION: This does however, make me ponder, if later on, he was committed we still have a huge gap in time between first week of June and the slaughter. What was he doing, besides tactical shopping (that’s funny, sorry)!

If, that turns out to be the case then the hospital so going to have to address why they discharged him.

I also wonder, if that is why, admin danced with the Ferpa stuff, to the media initially, instead of Hippa!

Hippa would have implied mental/medical treatment huh! wonder if I am allowed to say sneaky bas****s!

And what makes this more repugnant is admin, just flat out lying (whole voluntary withdrawal from program please).
That is nothing other than a flat out lie.

We can all do confidentiality, privileged communication- meaningless – duty to warn supersedes anything, and I suppose, now, everyone sees why huh? ……………..