I can't find a hole in this theory...

[OpenMind4U]

1st "intruder" goes into a rage at someone drninking from his glass and eating from his bowl
2nd "intruder" does the rest to hide secrets
3rd intruder" catches on and has to get attorneys
4th-6th intruders- attorneys and da office

Did I ever told you that I love you (in a good friendly way, of course)?!!!:floorlaugh:

 

[dodie20]

Not necessarily. Organised crime is so much more organised than most people can imagine. In 1991 I had no idea what was going on - I had been led to believe that I was the target of persons unknown and there was sufficient proof and witnesses to events to cause the police to seemingly take things seriously but i now believe they could not be trusted - it was not til 1999 that i came to know my daughter was a target and then i looked back over the years and thought about my older children. In my last address I was led to believe we had the protection of interpol and so yes i was lax with the alarm system feeling we were secured - it was not til later i realised that we were not secured but being used as bait - with my daughter as a known target - and of course my other children - I refer to my daughter cos hers is the testimony which was given to police and to me.

Give me some time and I will attempt to explain - but i will not be able to explain it all - though maybe one day I will publish a book about it - i don't know.

IMO, if somebody runs a billion dollar business and lives in a multi story house, with a maze like floor plan, and has 2 kids that sleep on a separate floor, well, he'd keep his alarm activated. He's be scared not to. I also don't believe a man like this would allow neighborhood kids to roam around his house, while he slept. I cannot believe, that while the Rs slept, the kids got up and ate and played, and entertained company. IMO, they would have minded better than that. And I don't believe that somebody would be able to sneak around and snatch JB, without them knowing. They weren't the kinds of parents who shut their bedroom door, and just let anything go. I, for 1, believe the neighbor who reported hearing a child scream, and if she heard it, so did the RS, imo. But, and this is a big but, the R's housekeeper reported that PR and JB, often had loud fights. If this is true, and I don't see why the lady would lie, it would explain why JB's scream was ignored...because they were used to ignoring them. moo

 

[midwest mama]

I obviously have too much free time, I think I am gonna take up drinking .....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

HERE'S TO YA!:toastred: Make mine a fine Merlot!

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

I'm confused. I never heard JR explain why the alarms wasn't set. Did he actually say JB played with it, so they disactivated it? Was it PR or JR who tool credit for disabling it?

John in a statement to LE said they didn't set the alarm because it would go off and they didn't know how to make it stop, so they just left it off. Nothing about kids playing with.

 

[crimedoesnotpay]

John in a statement to LE said they didn't set the alarm because it would go off and they didn't know how to make it stop, so they just left it off. Nothing about kids playing with.

I definitely read that John said about JonBenet playing with it and using a chair to access it - otherwise it would not have struck a chord with me.


Dodie, I wonder did the neighbours ever call the police or report overhearing these loud domestic disputes? Or were these "safe" domestic disputes unaccompanied by violence or threat? people do argue ya know; it doesn't make them twisted psychopaths.

Also some people don't go round with anger all the time - not even hate filled killers - some people have specific "triggers". Rage is a strange thing, but I do not feel it fits the psychological profile of these parents under the circumstances - they have had a lovely day, visited friends, spent time playing making paper dolls with the children (I think that's what they were doing at the Fleet's), dropped off presents and stopped off after their lovely but wearying day to let their daughter walk through a star in what must have been a magical Christmas moment on the way home; they carry her to bed and kiss her good night. Jonbenet is read stories at night and her mum has all the kids in making gingerbread houses - these are relaxed people; these are not stressed out psychos - they are looking forward to their trip away and to the up-coming pageant - not planning sexual depravity, murder and cover-up games with the police and the whole of society.

Consider - the blow to the head/ stun gun incidents are to shut JB up - I don't believe these parents would have acted this way; I don't believe they would have even pushed or shoved her.

The garrotting is a military style execution act often associated with the mindset of an act of necessity and in the absence of an alternate weapon and suits the purpose of appearing to be in accordance with the kidnapping letter - or should I say: the concept of a kidnap/ mad kidnapper.

The stabbing with the paintbrush in the genitals is an act of extreme violence -as well as one done in haste because there isn't time to manipulate the scene otherwise - the person's mind capable of this form of cover-up act (this act is to cover the ensuing murder primarily at this point in time - not the previous abuse which is secondary at this point in time) has no sensitivity to the child or tot he parents - only to self-preservation - and exhibits a hatred based on resentment and jealousy and personal rationalisations about parenting methods, for John and his family I feel.

 

[rashomon]

Supposing everything you pointed out is true, the killer is still the one who tightened the ligature around JonBenet's neck. Cause of death was strangulation, according to the autopsy finding.

Staging a scene can even involve that the stager commits homicide.
Jeffrey McDonald for example had injured his wife and one of his daughters (a five year-old) very severely during a domestic argument that had escalated.
Then, to misdirect LE, MacDonald got the idea to stage a scene suggesting that Charles Manson-like intruders had been on a murder spree in his home (The Manson murders were still fresh in everyone's mind back in 1970).
In order to make the murder spree scenario 'convincing', MacDonald then diabolically stabbed his youngest child (who had been sleeping during it all) to death multiple times, and also bludgeoned and stabbed his wife and older child to death.

So, if you see John and Patsy both on the scene, then who do you think was the more likely to tighten the cord, even if it was Patsy who tied the stick into the ligature? They were setting up a 'kidnapping gone awry scene', and even though she appeared dead from the head blow to them, they thought adding the strangulation aspect would really make it look more heinous.

I think of Patsy as the more likely to have tightened the cord because of the fiber evidence: one of her jacket fibers was found in the neck ligature.

I can easily see Patsy baling out at the last moment and John having to do the final pull. :moo:

I can see Patsy bailing out too (although I don't put it past her to have carried it out), but if she bailed out at some point, I think it was more related to her seeing JonBenet bleed as she inflicted the genital wound with the paintbrush. Maybe it was John who then wiped off the blood, and that's how fibers from his shirt ended up in this location.

One of the most haunting aspects in the horrible sequence of events has always been to me this: wouldn't the fact that the acute perimortem genital wound bled have made it instantly clear to the Ramsey(s) staging the scene that JonBenet was not yet dead?

 

[crimedoesnotpay]

Staging a scene can even involve that the stager commits homicide.
Jeffrey McDonald for example had injured his wife and one of his daughters (a five year-old) very severely during a domestic argument that had escalated.
Then, to misdirect LE, MacDonald got the idea to stage a scene suggesting that Charles Manson-like intruders had been on a murder spree in his home (The Manson murders were still fresh in everyone's mind back in 1970).
In order to make the murder spree scenario 'convincing', MacDonald then diabolically stabbed his youngest child (who had been sleeping during it all) to death multiple times, and also bludgeoned and stabbed his wife and older child to death.

I think of Patsy as the more likely to have tightened the cord because of the fiber evidence: one of her jacket fibers was found in the neck ligature.

I can see Patsy bailing out too (although I don't put it past her to have carried it out), but if she bailed out at some point, I think it was more related to her seeing JonBenet bleed as she inflicted the genital wound with the paintbrush. Maybe it was John who then wiped off the blood, and that's how fibers from his shirt ended up in this location.

One of the most haunting aspects in the horrible sequence of events has always been to me this: wouldn't the fact that the acute perimortem genital wound bled have made it instantly clear to the Ramsey(s) staging the scene that JonBenet was not yet dead?

Has it been confirmed that it was one of her jacket fibres - or simply that the colour was consistent with the colour of her jacket? I get confused because the fibres on the duct tape were microscopic and only consistent in colour I believe. If the string was from Patsy's paintbox or home I can see how they may have been there anyway.

I think the kidnapping was staged - the part with the blow to the skull and the note - and not done by the Ramseys... and the murder and genital assault was done in anger with the kidnappers by the murderer - also none of the Ramseys.

 

[txsvicki]

Patsy could have broken the window as staging in the trail from up in the bedroom down to the basement and out the window and vice versa. John could have already recognized something was not right and didn't want the window to play a part in the kidnapping.

 

[txsvicki]

Yes, possibly figured it out early on but went into protecting the business and money mode.

 

[rashomon]

I find it remarkable that people like yourself who feel sure Patsy lied about all sorts of things, find it impossible to accept that she might have lied to support her husband's story regarding the 911 call.

But isn't your theory that Patsy was clueless about what had happened and did not collude with John in any cover-up?
If yes, her lying about the phone would not fit into your theory.

 

[dodie20]

Yes, possibly figured it out early on but went into protecting the business and money mode.

I don't remember the exact sequence of JR and the window stories, but if I'm remembering correctly, he didn't immediately jump on the intruder used the window theory. He later claimed that the window was open, and he absent mindedly shut it? And I think he did at 1st claim He had broken the window earlier in the year? or did this come later too? And then he told the most unbelievable carp about being in his underwear and business shoes, etc., when he broke it. All of this has confused me since the beginning. And what did he say about the suitcase? and didn't this case have JAR's blanket in it? IMO, it looks like somebody may have been planning to dump the body with the suitcase, and set up JAR. All MOO.

 

[crimedoesnotpay]

I don't remember the exact sequence of JR and the window stories, but if I'm remembering correctly, he didn't immediately jump on the intruder used the window theory. He later claimed that the window was open, and he absent mindedly shut it? And I think he did at 1st claim He had broken the window earlier in the year? or did this come later too? And then he told the most unbelievable carp about being in his underwear and business shoes, etc., when he broke it. All of this has confused me since the beginning. And what did he say about the suitcase? and didn't this case have JAR's blanket in it? IMO, it looks like somebody may have been planning to dump the body with the suitcase, and set up JAR. All MOO.

I thought it had in it a nightie and a book. ????

 

[dodie20]

But isn't your theory that Patsy was clueless about what had happened and did not collude with John in any cover-up?
If yes, her lying about the phone would not fit into your theory.

I agree, because her 1st version backed up JR's version. She later said it was her idea, but IMO, her changing her story was suspicious. JR, PR, and BR, all said it was JR's idea, with PR later saying it was her idea, but I read a quote from the R's book where she said it was JR's idea, and she asked, 'are you sure?" So, considering all of this, I don't think PR, in a panic, made the call against JR's wishes. I don't really know what it means, except it looks like JR wanted the cops called. moo

 

[crimedoesnotpay]

You would need a good ghost writer, I can't understand or follow your train of thought...at all...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I know! It is very hard to get sense out of me when I write about things which cause me stress - but I am getting better - I used to literally stutter on paper (well this isn't paper) whenever I tried to express any feelings about it. :/

Regards your new past time - make your next one a triple cos I am hoping to post part one of my scenario tonight.

txsvicki - lol - I like you.

Also - if i need to use quote marks but not quoting the last persons remark - then how do i do that?

Thanks in advance...


Its ok - I found it. xx

 

[dodie20]

I thought it had in it a nightie and a book. ????

I don't remember anything about a nightie. I do remember reading that the blanket JBR was wrapped in, (a different blanket than the 1 in the suitcase), had a children's nightgown stuck to it, as if by static cling. From what I read, the suitcase had a blanket and a dr seuss book in it.

 

[crimedoesnotpay]

I don't remember anything about a nightie. I do remember reading that the blanket JBR was wrapped in, (a different blanket than the 1 in the suitcase), had a children's nightgown stuck to it, as if by static cling. From what I read, the suitcase had a blanket and a dr seuss book in it.

I read it that her favourite nightie and barbie doll were next to her... her comfort items which she used to take with her on pageants.. didn't know about the static thing - indicating perhaps it was just taken from a dryer I am guessing..

 

[dodie20]

I definitely read that John said about JonBenet playing with it and using a chair to access it - otherwise it would not have struck a chord with me.


Dodie, I wonder did the neighbours ever call the police or report overhearing these loud domestic disputes? Or were these "safe" domestic disputes unaccompanied by violence or threat? people do argue ya know; it doesn't make them twisted psychopaths.

Also some people don't go round with anger all the time - not even hate filled killers - some people have specific "triggers". Rage is a strange thing, but I do not feel it fits the psychological profile of these parents under the circumstances - they have had a lovely day, visited friends, spent time playing making paper dolls with the children (I think that's what they were doing at the Fleet's), dropped off presents and stopped off after their lovely but wearying day to let their daughter walk through a star in what must have been a magical Christmas moment on the way home; they carry her to bed and kiss her good night. Jonbenet is read stories at night and her mum has all the kids in making gingerbread houses - these are relaxed people; these are not stressed out psychos - they are looking forward to their trip away and to the up-coming pageant - not planning sexual depravity, murder and cover-up games with the police and the whole of society.

Consider - the blow to the head/ stun gun incidents are to shut JB up - I don't believe these parents would have acted this way; I don't believe they would have even pushed or shoved her.

The garrotting is a military style execution act often associated with the mindset of an act of necessity and in the absence of an alternate weapon and suits the purpose of appearing to be in accordance with the kidnapping letter - or should I say: the concept of a kidnap/ mad kidnapper.

The stabbing with the paintbrush in the genitals is an act of extreme violence -as well as one done in haste because there isn't time to manipulate the scene otherwise - the person's mind capable of this form of cover-up act (this act is to cover the ensuing murder primarily at this point in time - not the previous abuse which is secondary at this point in time) has no sensitivity to the child or tot he parents - only to self-preservation - and exhibits a hatred based on resentment and jealousy and personal rationalisations about parenting methods, for John and his family I feel.

I don't know where to start, but 1st of all, the Rs weren't some Leave it to Beaver family, of Boulder, imo. JR ran a Billion dollar business, and he didn't get there by being sweet. I've read enough reports on his ruthlessness, to believe it to be true. PR, imo, was the same type person. She was a miss america contestant, and if anybody thinks her getting to that point, was anything but grueling, they're wrong. PR was attractive, but she wasn't a raving beauty, so she got there by sheer willpower, and doing what it took to live her dream. IMO, she used these same traits where JB was concerned. Parents do it in the pageant world, they do it in sports, they do it in schools, etc. Anytime kids compete , you can bet that a demanding, perfectionist parent, is standing in the background, pushing with all her might. PR took it to a whole new level. IMO, she took it to the point of abuse. Any parent who would dress her 6 yr old daughter like a vegas showgirl, is abusive imo. I don't care what her reasons were, it was just plain wrong. PR knew better, it wasn't a lapse in judgement, and then according to the reports I've read, when concerned parents decided to have 'a mega JB', intervention, they couldn't, because JB wound up dead. And then she was buried in a pageant gown and tiara...the pageants weren't some little hobby. I understand that some people want to think the Rs were an ideal family, but I don't see it. Somebody smeared feces on JB's chocolates, and no matter who did it, it's still a sign of severe, severe dysfunction in that family. And regardless of who did what that night, I don't think PR was 'relaxed', by any means. But, I don't hold that against her, because she had a lot to be stressed about... especially if she had gotten wind of the reported 'intervention', and especially, if she found out about JR's bonus, which she claimed she didn't know about. This family was on the go, they had plans to go some more, and PR had just had a life threatening bout with cancer. If I remember correctly, she canceled their own Christmas party, but got talked into hosting it anyway. This lady was tired, and couldn't catch a break, even when she tried. moo

 

[midwest mama]

Staging a scene can even involve that the stager commits homicide.
Jeffrey McDonald for example had injured his wife and one of his daughters (a five year-old) very severely during a domestic argument that had escalated.
Then, to misdirect LE, MacDonald got the idea to stage a scene suggesting that Charles Manson-like intruders had been on a murder spree in his home (The Manson murders were still fresh in everyone's mind back in 1970).
In order to make the murder spree scenario 'convincing', MacDonald then diabolically stabbed his youngest child (who had been sleeping during it all) to death multiple times, and also bludgeoned and stabbed his wife and older child to death.

I think of Patsy as the more likely to have tightened the cord because of the fiber evidence: one of her jacket fibers was found in the neck ligature.

I can see Patsy bailing out too (although I don't put it past her to have carried it out), but if she bailed out at some point, I think it was more related to her seeing JonBenet bleed as she inflicted the genital wound with the paintbrush. Maybe it was John who then wiped off the blood, and that's how fibers from his shirt ended up in this location.

One of the most haunting aspects in the horrible sequence of events has always been to me this: wouldn't the fact that the acute perimortem genital wound bled have made it instantly clear to the Ramsey(s) staging the scene that JonBenet was not yet dead?

Could it be that as non-medical professionals, or not having experience as hunters, etc., they didn't know that bleeding stops with death? Might they have assumed that because of apparent lack of visible signs of life, due to being very near death from the blow, she was already dead? If the vaginal injury and strangulation occurred very near each other in time, and it was approximately 90 minutes from the time of the head blow to the strangulation, JB's breathing and heartbeat should have been nearly undetectable.

 

[txsvicki]

I just can't see anyone really thinking her dead. Almost dead maybe. There was the saliva and mucus on the cheek that didn't get wiped off onto the carpet from being turned over to strangle. The investigators believe she was turned on her stomach when strangled, so that could have accumulated after being turned back over, unless somehow the body fluids and mucus didn't get rubbed off her cheek during it all. Maybe one purpise of the raised arms was to prop her tilted head up a little while on the stomach.

 

[OpenMind4U]

I just can't see anyone really thinking her dead. Almost dead maybe. There was the saliva and mucus on the cheek that didn't get wiped off onto the carpet from being turned over to strangle. The investigators believe she was turned on her stomach when strangled, so that could have accumulated after being turned back over, unless somehow the body fluids and mucus didn't get rubbed off her cheek during it all. Maybe one purpise of the raised arms was to prop her tilted head up a little while on the stomach.

...but isn't her arms were ABOVE and BEHIND her head when she was found, laying on her back in WC? Plus, if her cheek would touch her arms as you suggested - would you think the mucus/blood would be found on the slieves of her shirt as well?...if I remember correctly - nothing was found on shirt's slieves. JMO