I can't find a hole in this theory...

[txsvicki]

I read a knowledgeable account at fjj that the arms weren't behind (under) the head, just up above and beside the head. Saliva was on her shirt sleeve but did it get there while lying there 90 minutes and also after being turned back over? I would think that spot of mucus would have been rubbed off somehow in the turning back and forth from the stomach, but who knows.

 

[OpenMind4U]

I read a knowledgeable account at fjj that the arms weren't behind (under) the head, just up above and beside the head. Saliva was on her shirt sleeve but did it get there while lying there 90 minutes and also after being turned back over? I would think that spot of mucus would have been rubbed off somehow in the turning back and forth from the stomach, but who knows.

Agree, when I said 'behind' - I didn't mean 'under'. Sorry for confusion. By the way, you can hear this statement from Kolar himself, on Tricia radio interview with Kolar. I believe KK or cynic ask this specific question in regards of JBR arms position and Kolar explained how her arms were: up above and beside the head.

In regards of mucus on sleeve (now I know how to spell this word properly..., again, I believe it was on the right upper side in correspondence with her position laying on the back...but I could be wrong...I need to go back and find this reference in ST book.

 

[dodie20]

I don't understand why her arms were positioned over her head. If I didn't know better, I would assume for some kind of hanging purposes, but, if there had been any evidence of this, it would have come out by now. So, does anybody have any idea of why? Since she was found with cord on her wrists, was she tied to something or restrained perhaps? geeze, this has always bothered me. After that head bash, it wasn't like JB was going anywhere, I mean she literally had a hole in her head, there was no need to restrain her. moo

 

[txsvicki]

Would it be easier to carry a body into the wine room if the arms were up? Since there were animal hairs in jonbenet's hand i've wondered if she was having some flailing and clutching at things on the floor nearby while lying there. Clutching at things such as fur lined boots.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Iirc the guy from America's most wanted ( his name is on the tip.....John Walsh !!!! Whew! Anyway, he said in an interview somewhere that she was hanging ( at some point) there was some back peddling when asked about it later.

Also, didn't Henry Lee make the same mistake in an interview?

This is why I believed it was one of the things things held back.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[OpenMind4U]

Iirc the guy from America's most wanted ( his name is on the tip.....John Walsh !!!! Whew! Anyway, he said in an interview somewhere that she was hanging ( at some point) there was some back peddling when asked about it later.

Also, didn't Henry Lee make the same mistake in an interview?

This is why I believed it was one of the things things held back.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

...I don't know, never heared about...but I don't believe the 'hanging' was the purpose because:
- the loops on her wrists were LOOSELY tied, coroner has no problem to take them off without cutting;
- if she would be hanged or pulled by it - it would leave some marks on her wrists...there were nothing!

...So, WHAT was the purpose? It depends on WHEN these ropes where applyed: before head injury or after? JMO

 

[rashomon]

I just can't see anyone really thinking her dead. Almost dead maybe.

In case the Ramsey family member who put the cord around JonBenet's neck thought of her as 'not yet dead' - would this classify the strangulation as a first-degree murder?

 

[BOESP]

Of course other physicians believed the head blow came first. Let's keep things balanced and not just include the evidence that seems to support one's personal theory.

 

[BOESP]

I was introducing balance, BOESP. That's what balance is, offering other points of view. I have no idea how JonBenet was killed, so I would never insist that Spitz's theory is more correct than anyone else's.

You said, "Sounds like first-degree murder to me." Sounds like you were promoting Dr. Spitz's theory as the solution to me.

 

[discovery]

If John Ramsey did kill her...why did he kill her? And if jonbenet said, as DocG assumes, that night that she would tell on him thus motivating John to commit the crime...why would he kill her in such a way? Why not just suffocate her? Why go that far with strangulation, bashing the head, stun gun....?

 

[azwriter]

If John Ramsey did kill her...why did he kill her? And if jonbenet said, as DocG assumes, that night that she would tell on him thus motivating John to commit the crime...why would he kill her in such a way? Why not just suffocate her? Why go that far with strangulation, bashing the head, stun gun....?

discovery, let me try to answer this.

Your daughter is dead through some type of accident, but for some reason, what really occured has to be covered up. The parents have to account for this child. She can't just up and disappear so plans are made to add a sense of violence when her dead body is found by officials.(And it has to be found) The reason would be to throw the cops off during an investigation. The more violent and cruel her death appears, the less the cops, or anyone who knew the Ramseys would believe a loving parent could do such awful things to their child. To me, that's one of the reasons for all the staging - to point the evidence away from the family.

It's the same thing with the ransom letter. The Ramseys had to have a reason their daughter's dead body was going to be found in their basement room. A ransom letter would be like a blueprint so that when the girl was discovered, it would tie back to the "kidnappers" or killers and their threats and admission that they had the child.

But then again, this is all just my opinion on a case that has haunted me for years.
Happy Halloween!

 

[UKGuy]

If John Ramsey did kill her...why did he kill her? And if jonbenet said, as DocG assumes, that night that she would tell on him thus motivating John to commit the crime...why would he kill her in such a way? Why not just suffocate her? Why go that far with strangulation, bashing the head, stun gun....?

discovery,
JonBenet was killed by the use of a ligature. Patsy Ramsey's fibers are embedded into the knotting of that ligature and are also to be found on other artifacts such as the sticky side of the duct tape and the paint-tote. Patsy Ramsey said she never visited the wine-cellar that night or the following morning, where on both occassions she was wearing the same clothing.


The ligature and paintbrush handle are most likely designed to mask any prior assault on JonBenet that involved her neck?

The ransom note offers the Ramsey's a rationale for declaring JonBenet missing, i.e. distances the Ramsey's from whatever happened to JonBenet.

Its also likely that different people took part at different points in the staging of the wine-cellar.

So the head bash, the asphyxiation, the redressing, the relocation of the body, the dumping of evidence into the wine-cellar, cleaning up JonBenet, were undertaken by different people at varying times.

What we think of as the wine-cellar crime-scene is really a conflation of all the above events and some not mentioned.

All three Ramsey's were involved in this staging, including Burke Ramsey who faked being asleep despite a house full of invited friends talking and searching for JonBenet.

The best explanation, the one with the greatest explanatory power is that the parents staged the kidnapping to cover for their son.



.

 

[rashomon]

If John Ramsey did kill her...why did he kill her? And if jonbenet said, as DocG assumes, that night that she would tell on him thus motivating John to commit the crime...why would he kill her in such a way? Why not just suffocate her? Why go that far with strangulation, bashing the head, stun gun....?

I too have difficulty thinking of John Ramsey as having delivering the head blow to JonBenet to 'silence' her.

Imo the head injury is more consistent with some kind of rage attack (that e. g. might have happened during a fierce sibling fight).

Or Jonbenet had yet another soiling accident shortly after eating the pineapple, her enraged mother yanked her around in anger, and her head then struck a hard, blunt surface.

 

[rashomon]

Agree, when I said 'behind' - I didn't mean 'under'. Sorry for confusion. By the way, you can hear this statement from Kolar himself, on Tricia radio interview with Kolar. I believe KK or cynic ask this specific question in regards of JBR arms position and Kolar explained how her arms were: .up above and beside the head

Here is a picture which shows the position of the right arm (Jonbenet's body was already in rigor mortis when she was found). The arm is close to the head and bent at the elbow. I suppose this is what J. Kolar meant by the arms being "up above and beside the head":

***Warning! Graphic picture!*** http://www.acandyrose.com/jonbenetfaceathouse.jpg

 

[midwest mama]

:what:

Here is a picture which shows the position of the right arm (Jonbenet's body was already in rigor mortis when she was found). The arm is close to the head and bent at the elbow. I suppose this is what J. Kolar meant by the arms being "up above and beside the head":

***Warning! Graphic picture!*** http://www.acandyrose.com/jonbenetfaceathouse.jpg

IIRC, DeeDee249 explained on another thread that by the time this photo was taken (notice paper bags on JB's hands), the rigor would have relaxed enough that her arm could have been positioned this way in order to accommodate the photo to be taken of the dark spot on her right cheek.
Actual position of her arms when found is open to interpretation of written information - supposedly more elevated than shown in this photo?

 

[UKGuy]

I too have difficulty thinking of John Ramsey as having delivering the head blow to JonBenet to 'silence' her.

Imo the head injury is more consistent with some kind of rage attack (that e. g. might have happened during a fierce sibling fight).

Or Jonbenet had yet another soiling accident shortly after eating the pineapple, her enraged mother yanked her around in anger, and her head then struck a hard, blunt surface.

rashomon,
Same here. With Kolars revelation that it was Burke Ramsey who opened those Christmas gifts and Patsy took the heat for him, does that not make it BDI all the way?

Was there a cover up, since some of the BPD questioning seemed quite genuine, e.g. bloodstain on JonBenet's pillow.

Looks to me that BR organized the pineapple snack independently of the parents, otherwise they would have cleaned up that evidence. He enticed JonBenet down to the basement, was the barbi doll a quid pro quo for abuse?

Whoever cleaned up the basement knew to remove those gifts into the wine-cellar, along with JonBenet. Seems to me that BR never told his parents the full story, and he was responsible for some of the staging, size-12?


.

 

[sandover]

Been a long time, but due to all the new coverage I thought I'd pop back in.

I still think DocG has the most persuasive and simplest explanation of what happened.

Has Doc's theory received any interesting support or criticisms lately?