Armchair Psych discussion of Jodi Arias

[crimesnooper]

That is what I and the other poster (cannot recall his name now, I think something like BW0000 on the Jodi Arias sequence of events thread here) were thinking. All of what you just posted, he and I had pondered.

Because when you look at his last texts to JA, Traivs is saying things like, "You are a sociopath; you''re the worst thing that ever happened to me; you are evil with a sick agenda; If Danny knew what I know about you he would spit in your face; I want you out of my life"------added together with his going to the church elders and telling him about his huge mistake (having gotten involved with Arias) and letting people know he was on probation ("temple unworthy") does NOT jive with getting naked with her right before Cancun. Something is off.

I have an intuition that she snuck in to kill him on June 4. Either that, or talked her way in with the check, but not for sex. It just seems like Travis would not be that bad to himself at that point, or that good to her. He was severely, deeply, disillusioned with her. Not a real turn on.

I wonder if she threatened suicide if he did not let her in. I can see her being very convincing... and someone without experience dealing with somone who uses that threat he might have felt compelled to let her in. She may also have stolen a key. He had numerous roomates/keys probably around.

 

[ShadyLadySleuth]

http://forensis.org/PDF/published/2007_AntisocialPerso.pdf

This scholastic article is about treating those (or the inability to treat) with ASPD & or Psycopothy.

I think this analysis is useful because it discusses the criterion for ASPDs and there is a direct correlation between ASPD and the most negative traits of a Narcisist and one glaring difference.

There has been plenty discussion here about Narcissism and I believe everyone is correct when hypothesizing that JA is a Narcisist. However, she's only narcissistic because grandiosity, charm, glibness, pathological lying, cunning/manipulation, lack of remorse or guilt, shallow affect, callousness and lack of empathy, parasitic lifestyle, poor self behavioral controls, promiscuity, early behavioral problems, unrealistic goals, impulsiveness, and a co start need for stimulation/arousal are ALL and Every characteristic for Psycopothy and ASPD. Thus, She seems narcissistic but is truly Anti-Social.

She personally can be attributed to every criteria. That is pretty impressive and astonishingly scary.

I think she also fits the need for constant stimulation because if you watch her in the interrigation room, she rips labels off water bottles, constantly messes with every inanimate object in the room, and her bizarre behavior in general.

How could this type of diagnosis be missed? Especially if someone is blatantly acting this way?

Also, this article goes on to say that those who are able to form some sort of attachment, like narcissists, are more able to be treated in some way. Because severe psychopathy and ASPD's do not form attachments and that is the glaring reason treatment usually is not an option, nor does it even work. Basically, they have nothing to negotiate with. Usually everyone has some type of emotional currency but these people don't. Which is why her parents, even if they tried, probably could have done nothing for her. She might have charmed her way out of a 72 hour hold, or possibly hurt them. And there is no proven behavioral or pharmaceutical treatment for those with ASPD.**** (If you remember, or Read the article that Narcisists have plenty to negotiate with, they have emotional currency, the reason for their narcissism is completely different than the reason of narcissism displayed by the Anti-social personality.)****

I think this article is imperative to read because it answers many of the questions that have been posed here and helps us understand her type of crazy.

I do wonder though, did the defensive and or prosecution not want her to be diagnosed with ASPD for fear of prejudice by the jury/ or the prosecution didn't want her getting away with anything for reasons of insanity?

I am aware that there are two different definitions regarding sanity; and I believe even though she's probably AS, that the court would deem her sane because at the time of the murder, she knew and demonstrated the differences between right and wrong. Yet, many AS know between right and wrong, they just could care less.

I think perhaps the defense didn't want her labeled as a sociopath because that is a scary label for most people, and if convicted of 1st degree murder, make her more liable to get the death penalty. And, they wouldn't use it in conjunction with self-defense either. The Prosecution may have felt they had enough evidence of premeditation to not need any bolstering with a PD. JMO!

 

[SMK]

Dear Gecko - as I look back at the now thousands of posts on this thread, yours have moved me the most. Maybe I identify with you the most. It has been your posts that I have replied to the most. I was that silent child who didn't have a voice growing up. Who felt totally helpless and weak of mind and ego strength. It felt like my spirit was crushed and I lost all whatever potential I might have had, under better circumstances while growing up. I was diagnosed at age 25 with schizo-affective disorder. It has features of both psychosis and mood disorder. I had several psychiatric hospitalizations and shock therapy treatments. Took anti-psychotic meds and meds for the mood disorder (deep depression). I believe that I was probably born with the genetic possibility of this disorder, but my environment brought it to full flower, with devastating results for me. You and others on this thread are kind and understanding and I appreciate all of you.

This is so true: Although there is a genetic component, it takes a certain environment to cause it to overtake you in this way. I am so sorry. Of course everyone understands, and sympathizes. Be proud of yourself for being a survivor. :blowkiss::blowkiss:

 

[SMK]

I wonder if she threatened suicide if he did not let her in. I can see her being very convincing... and someone without experience dealing with somone who uses that threat he might have felt compelled to let her in. She may also have stolen a key. He had numerous roomates/keys probably around.

Yes, it has also been said that Jodi had access to the keypad number in the garage to let her in, and that she had been known to come in through the dog door. My feeling is she snuck in. A threat of suicide at that point might have prompted TA to call 911: He had already in the texts, told her in no uncertain terms that he had seen through her drama and was done with it.

 

[LimoDriver]

DT filed a motion to sequester the jury due to interview tapes and journal entries being released to the media. JS denied motion b/c there is no foundation that the jurors have seen this material. Simply another ploy from the DT.lease: DT also brought up the motion for mistrial before the court again citing another witness that will presumably testify at a later date.
The jury was invited back in. JA stood up all nice and pretty for them as they entered. Just like she has done so many times before. It makes me sick. :sick:.

 

[Gecko100]

If she hasn't ask for your forgiveness or has not earned it, don't bother. Forgiveness has to be earned. I tried forgiving my sister, and she upped the ante and became 10 x worse.

That is what is scary: The field of therapy draws such people to it because they can have one-on-one control over people, they can label anyone who disagrees with them, and they have a steady supply of narcissistic ego-feeding stuff. ugh

I so agree with this! I have come up against these people on many occasions, in my workplace, and even ended up with a therapist myself, who was an N!
(total re-victimisation).
My sister is also a piece of work, when I stood up for at risk children who were part of her extended family, the payback was phenomenally wicked, and destructive.:banghead:

 

[slanda]

I think perhaps the defense didn't want her labeled as a sociopath because that is a scary label for most people, and if convicted of 1st degree murder, make her more liable to get the death penalty. And, they wouldn't use it in conjunction with self-defense either. The Prosecution may have felt they had enough evidence of premeditation to not need any bolstering with a PD. JMO!

Agreed.

I do think though it will be brought in during the penalty phase.

 

[SMK]

I so agree with this! I have come up against these people on many occasions, in my workplace, and even ended up with a therapist myself, who was an N!
(total re-victimisation).
My sister is also a piece of work, when I stood up for at risk children who were part of her extended family, the payback was phenomenally wicked, and destructive.:banghead:

You said it, sister! Revictimization ( I too had an N therapist who did this; thank god I fired her as soon as I grasped what was happening) and destructive payback. That is the vicious circle one gets caught in. :furious:

 

[Gecko100]

Dear Gecko - as I look back at the now thousands of posts on this thread, yours have moved me the most. Maybe I identify with you the most. It has been your posts that I have replied to the most. I was that silent child who didn't have a voice growing up. Who felt totally helpless and weak of mind and ego strength. It felt like my spirit was crushed and I lost all whatever potential I might have had, under better circumstances while growing up. I was diagnosed at age 25 with schizo-affective disorder. It has features of both psychosis and mood disorder. I had several psychiatric hospitalizations and shock therapy treatments. Took anti-psychotic meds and meds for the mood disorder (deep depression). I believe that I was probably born with the genetic possibility of this disorder, but my environment brought it to full flower, with devastating results for me. You and others on this thread are kind and understanding and I appreciate all of you.

Thank-you so much! Welcome to the Silenced Child Club! I never fail to be truly astonished at is the amazing resilience everyone has despite the odds!
You have clearly battled hard and long (like most of us), and deserve the right to just be who you are, and even what you could be!
Being the silenced child is such tough going, and I don't know about your family, but even when we do find the courage to speak, it is often discounted/disbelieved/dismissed as the rantings of the 'insane'. Your own reality then comes into question, then there is no validation of your pain, except from others who absolutely know what it feels like and seriously 'get' it.
One good thing about this case is that it gave us all a chance to speak up and know we are not alone, and it has also produced a forum where we can talk openly in an effort to understand:toast:

 

[LimoDriver]

One good thing about this case is that it gave us all a chance to speak up and know we are not alone, and it has also produced a forum where we can talk openly in an effort to understand:toast:

For sure! I have learned so much about myself following this case and taking part in this forum. It's nice to have a place where people are speaking with one another with respect and respectfully disagreeing if their viewpoints differ.

 

[Gecko100]

You said it, sister! Revictimization ( I too had an N therapist who did this; thank god I fired her as soon as I grasped what was happening) and destructive payback. That is the vicious circle one gets caught in. :furious:

Oh yes! got to love the N therapist! A contradiction in terms. I shouted at him for an hour. hehe
He probably just gave me another label...sigh
I haven't had contact with my sister/family since that incident. I truly don't believe she 'sees' abuse. Way too threatening. She made contact with my daughter after a hiatus of 17 years just to do it. grrr
They are the gift that keeps on giving...

 

[HMSHood]

This is an excellent article by Janice Harper. People always think of abuse being done by men on women but women can be violent abusers too. Jodi was a
jealous, obsessed stalker who was capable of anything. Why would any woman drive over a thousand miles to seek out a man that had abused her in the past?
Travis and Jodi were never married, heck they were not really even in a "relationship" for very long- there was no divorce involved or children or custody issues & thus no court proceedings.

There were no reports of any abuse ever made and everything shows that she was a willing partner in the sex games.
If Travis had abused her, she certainly would never drive a thousand miles to be abused again. She went there to kill him.

Her defense is such an insult to real victims of abuse.

How many men are abused and do not report it as it is not socially acceptable? Perhaps this case will bring male abuse issues to the forefront.

We all know Jodi's entire life is a lie. It's so disgusting to hear so called " experts" condemn the victim in this case and help drag him through the mud -- especially when it's all based on Jodi's b.s. stories.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/janice-harper/the-burning-bed_b_2981003.html

Jodi Arias is a very controlling and envious. Those are dangerous mix.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

I think she was threatening him with the sex tape... and by that point he was probably pretty sure that Jodi was the one who slashed his tires and was stalking him too...

Travis was trying to finally rid himself of her once and for all, and Jodi didn't Rilke that at all...

We know he knew she was a sociopath because of the texts he sent her at the end of may... He was DONE WITH HER! He also told her that her "account with him had ended" and she needed to start paying him back...

Here are some of those texts..

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/album.php?albumid=1724

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/album.php?albumid=1724&pictureid=14994

Is the text that says, ". . . before I start seeking revenge" from Travis to Jodi?

 

[SMK]

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/album.php?albumid=1724&pictureid=14994

Is the text that says, ". . . before I start seeking revenge" from Travis to Jodi?

I took that to mean he would turn the tables on her.

Maybe she had already spoken to some people; hence, his threat to seek revenge?

From one of TA's texts:

"So either fess up or face the wrath. No matter how bad the truth is I promise you the punishment will be better than the lie.. . . After tomorrow, it's going to get real bad for you. So spit it out."

Kind of cryptic, really....hmmmmmm....

It would seem to imply something more was occurring.....but what?

In these text messages, my sympathy shifts strongly toward Travis. It reminds me of emails I've sent to my psycho sister. He says he wants to "spark human emotion" in her, if she has any. I know that feeling. Just wish I knew the context of all of these texts.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

Received a link to this article today from a friend. Please be sure to read the comments below the article. There are 395 of them - reading just the NYT picks is worthwhile and thought provoking. They include views on points covered in this thread.

Diagnosis: Human by Ted Gup, NY Times, April 2, 2013.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/03/opinion/diagnosis-human.html

 

[Woe.be.gone]

I took that to mean he would turn the tables on her.

Maybe she had already spoken to some people; hence, his threat to seek revenge?

From one of TA's texts:


Kind of cryptic, really....hmmmmmm....

It would seem to imply something more was occurring.....but what?

In these text messages, my sympathy shifts strongly toward Travis. It reminds me of emails I've sent to my psycho sister. He says he wants to "spark human emotion" in her, if she has any. I know that feeling. Just wish I knew the context of all of these texts.

I don't believe I've ever threatened anybody, especially not in writing. I mean, especially not to threaten revenge of any kind.
To me, your sibling relationship is in a different category from a man/woman relationship that doesn't even have a very long history.

Reading the one sided texts, allows me a peek into TA's anger/rage. Why did he engage/continue to carry on with this nonsense?
His tone is severe.
I agree that not having both sets of texts available in order to read the full dialogue makes the conversation, well, one sided!

Why does he want to or feel the need to spark human emotion in JA when he wants to be in a relationship with Mimi(sp)? coo coo.

 

[SMK]

Received a link to this article today from a friend. Please be sure to read the comments below the article. There are 395 of them - reading just the NYT picks is worthwhile and thought provoking. They include views on points covered in this thread.

Diagnosis: Human by Ted Gup, NY Times, April 2, 2013.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/03/opinion/diagnosis-human.html

Thank you for posting this: Once more, I posted a lengthy and emotional response, but the site was grinding slowly and I lost it (this is the only site where that continually occurs, must be too popular)---

probably better off, as I was venting about the past with my son's doctors.:furious::furious: In any case, thanks.

 

[SMK]

I don't believe I've ever threatened anybody, especially not in writing. I mean, especially not to threaten revenge of any kind.
To me, your sibling relationship is in a different category from a man/woman relationship that doesn't even have a very long history.

Reading the one sided texts, allows me a peek into TA's anger/rage. Why did he engage/continue to carry on with this nonsense?
His tone is severe.
I agree that not having both sets of texts available in order to read the full dialogue makes the conversation, well, one sided!

Why does he want to or feel the need to spark human emotion in JA when he wants to be in a relationship with Mimi(sp)? coo coo.

I understand - as the Defense team apparently does - that these texts may be viewed as indicating rage, anger , control in Travis.

But to me, they come off as desperate and scared. I think he was simply amazed that she was not the Casual Colleen she had made herself out to be.

He considered her a friend, (a sexual friend, but recall he was a child of this era, not ours) and she was turning on him. "If I can spark some human emotion in you"

If you have another theory, I am all ears.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

I appreciated your post. I have a relative that has gone through an excruiating process with a child(nothing as awful or trumatic as you described.) And I know first hand that their heads were never in the sand. Sought counseling, loved thier child, fought for her, constantly examining thier own choices(did they cause this) ect. I get sooo angry when I listen to the talking heads like Dr. Drew and Bethany Marshall and thier constant rant..."get help,,, get conservatorship..take control!" They are so ignorant about how the most dedicated, knowlegable and loving parents can not force change or help. In our state, you need three Psch Dr to sign off before someone is admitted unvoluntarily to a mental health facility and even with conservatorship, you can't force meds. But as far as the JA case, I do feel there is something terrible wrong here. Yes JA is an adult and I doubt they could do much for the reasons I stated above. But at one point she was a child. When did all this begin? And sometimes parents are to blame to a certain extent. What struck me about the tapes is how quickly they threw her under the bus. I might know my child is ill or needs to be held accountable but I sure would not have aided the prosecution like that. They had no inkling to protect their child. No matter what your child has done, I think most would have at least thought lets get a lawyer and sought this out before making such statements to the police. They had to know the detective was not there to"help them or JA) Both parents are masking their true roles in her life.
And one other point,in my early career as a social worker with disturbed, neglected, abused or ajudicated teens, I can tell you this....99% of the time, kids do not run away from functional and healthy homes. The dysfuntion may not be readily apparent, but it's there. Mom may have been told not to express emotion in court but I'm not buying that that is what her aloofness is about. I honestly think they have absolutely no love for thier child. My arm chair diagnosis...dad was sexually inapproriate with JA and was most likely emotional abusive...mom was passive aggressive, maybe jealous of JA especially if she was picking up on dad's sexualizing of JA, unloving and was rejecting of JA very early.

After watching the media interviews of the detective talking to JA's parents, I picked up on a lot of what you describe in your insightful post.

I made a personal post a few days ago explaining how my dad once referred to me as being average. Later he explained why he made that remark and agreed he didn't communicate the message he intended to - just a lazy version of it. Words can sting like bullets do. Can't wait to hear about the bullets I've fired without even realizing damage was done some day. (sarcastic)

With the above in mind, in the taped interviews of the detective talking to JA's parents, her father casually states to the detective, "she's a strange person". It struck me as if he was talking about a neighbor or someone he knows off the street - his comment sounded so detached and indifferent. He went on to say that, because JA is his daughter, he tries to help her out financially when he can. Thud.

Another observation I noted, is that, JA's mother stated that JA didn't really talk to her much. She said, "Jodi didn't talk to me;. . . she called my daughter". This remark struck me because Jodi is also her daughter. Most naturally, I believe a mother would say that she called her sister or my younger daughter - something along those lines. Her choice of words excludes Jodi from being one of her daughters.

Lastly, I'm not sure calling the police, when you discover a marijuana plant in your eighth grade daughter's bedroom, is a sound choice. It's a bit extreme and could result in the child feeling betrayed. The fear and anger that could result from that action may be enough to keep the child from ever confiding in her parents and break trust between them forever. Major faux pas imo. Why not throw the plant away and tell the kid you don't allow pot production in the house. After that, try to have a conversation about why she had the plant in the first place.

In the detective's office, JA's mom wonders why JA doesn't trust her? Her first reaction was to call the police on her young teenage daughter? Weird.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

I think you are right about her using the sex tape to threaten him. He threatened her with the wrath that would unfold if she didn't come clean, and also told her that the post re: Danny made her look like a *advertiser censored*. I think her payback was going to be exposing their sexual relationship to make him like a *advertiser censored* in others eyes too, and to ruin any potential relationships he may be trying to start. I think their relationship was past the point of no return. It was over in her mind and she had no control over it. Her evil war against him had begun.
He had her pegged. It is eerie to read his texts calling her a sociopath etc. He finally knew exactly what he was dealing with and it was too late.

With this theory in mind, TA had to be out of his own mind then to allow JA back into his house for the purpose of participating in more sex and another photo shoot. How does this fact (fact right?) fit into this picture/theory?

Peeps, we have some facts that we can't just twist around to fit any story that we think sounds good. :banghead: