Peru - Stephany Flores, 21, murdered in Lima hotel room, 30 May 2010 #14

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I believe that some people are just born evil, it doesn't matter how they are raised. I do believe the Van der Sloots were too permissive giving JVS his own apartment and a line of credit at the casino, etc, however I believe his evil started before that. Jossy Mansur the editor of El Diario newspaper in Aruba (and a long time supporter of the Holloways) was on TV last week and he is the one who said JVS once threw a man off the bridge. He said basically that Joran could be an ok person but when he was crossed he would have an uncontrollable temper. I believe many (including his family) were just plain afraid of him.

I did read a book a couple of months ago called the "Bad Seed" by William March. It basically is the story of a sweet looking little 8 year old girl who has absolutely no empathy for anyone. It turns out she is responsible for the death of three people - she pushes an old lady down the stairs cause she wants a piece of jewelry, drowns a little boy in her class because she wants a penmanship medal that she believes she deserved, and sets a sleeping drunk man on fire because he knew her secrets. The only other person who recognized her evil was her mother and the ending of the story tells how she deals with this. Warning: the book and movie both have different endings - the book is a little more intense. Anyway, I believe that JVS may just be a similar example. This of course in my opinion.

I saw the movie many years ago, and I believe that can happen. I think some people are born evil. There may be something missing in the gene pool and something just brings it out. But, then look at parents who kill or torture their children.

The human psychic is a big can and full of worms. jmo
 
I just cannot imagine as a mom allowing my child to have a line of credit to gamble in a casino...............

He was underage, too--he shouldn't have even been in a casino, legally. I wonder how or why the casino allowed him to gamble there? Maybe the laws were pretty lax there regarding this.
 
Hi, MK16. According to his Netherlands lawyer, Joran called him to say that he intended to turn himself in. For whatever reason, that did not happen and the police arrested him while he was in the taxi.


I believe his lawyer indicated that Joran had emailed rather than called him while on the run. It was probably around the same time he posted "catch me if you can" on his twitter...

http://twitter.com/joranvdsloot

The computer analysis will be interesting I'm sure. MOO
 
I'll give an opinion here but with the caveat that the medical examiner/autopsy will prove a more accurate picture as to cause of death.

I am former Marine, trained in hand to hand combat and Viet vet. I hesitate talking about the forms of death a person can experience.

This is all IMO! To the question of was JVDS trained in martial arts? I'll say it's possible, I'll also say probably anyone who had a fascination with killing someone could learn in the privacy of their own home in a basement.

I am familiar with nose blows and they are more likely used to disable and not kill, although brain death could occur I'd expect it would take awhile. From what I read on the net it sounds like a very brutal undefended strike.

If it's true he choked her IMO that to me would be the more likely cause of death, due to the fact the air and blood supply is restricted. To me it's more likely she was brutally struck with something, elbow, blunt object etc. It won't surprise me if she was choked afterwards.

Really how she died is not as important to me as that "she is deceased" gone. It also appears from a distance JVDS is responsible. I think Peruvian police and the hotel with hidden cameras have done an excellent job of putting the crime together and IMO Castro Casto is the place JVDS deserves to be. Not for one second do I beleive JVDS is being set up. To feel for JVDS is to feel for the whole peruvian prison population. When in Rome, do as the Romans do..

PS, having said all that I want people to know, self defense training can teach someone how to break choke holds and grips from an attacker. It's not very difficult to do but I can't demonstrate it or describe it here. One must practice to become a believer.

I teach a martial art and my son has had his black since he was 16. Just wanted to add on to this excellent post. Sure martial artists use elbow strikes but so do street fighters and people with no training at all. :innocent:
 
He was underage, too--he shouldn't have even been in a casino, legally. I wonder how or why the casino allowed him to gamble there? Maybe the laws were pretty lax there regarding this.

Not sure what the age limit is, but all the kids with Natalie's group were in the casinos gambling. So they are either lax or the age maybe 18.
 
For the record, I never wrote that the elbowing was the final COD (I cited the strangling etc.). Just that it more likely occurred in the scenario as I depicted and that it was not a glancing blow to the nose. And that it likely was in furtherance of the robbery, and it is obviously my opinion and speculation taken together with the damage to the face and skull. And that this was the only blow struck.

And I only ask about the use of the elbow in the first place, as most people if they were going to kill a girl would probably use their fists or do the strangling. Using one's elbow MAY indicate some prior training, and it is interesting that he had been in Thailand for some time before this. I know it is obvious for someone of his size to easily kill someone of her size, in countless ways. The point is she was rendered unconcious and skull damaged and highly likely brain damaged from a single elbow to her face, and I have been pointing out how he is lying about how and where it happened. And the police know this from their questioning and the (preliminary) forensic evidence, and have tripped him up good.
 
In my younger years, I read a lot about Ted Bundy. I was in college at Auburn University in Alabama when he snuck into a dormitory at a University in Florida (Tallahassee-- if my memory is correct) and attacked/killed some of the co-eds. I remember that criminologists noted how interesting it was that, out of 49 states he could have gone to after breaking out of jail (in Colorado, I believe), that he ended up in Florida -- a state where he would almost be guaranteed to get the death penalty if he committed another murder while there. Some people believed that he may have had a subconscious desire to get caught. Ultimately, Bundy was put to death in Florida's electric chair -- and I for one felt like he got what he deserved.

In some ways, JVDS's actions mirror Bundy's in that he ended up allegedly committing another murder in a country whose penal system is one of the worst he could be in. He may not get the death penalty, but he will certainly suffer more in jail in Peru than if he was incarcerated in Aruba, the Netherlands or the US. A subconscious choice on his part, or just carelessness and stupidity?

Exactly, some posters are stating that JVDS may have other unsolved murders out there. But it also seems to me, out of the 2 disappearances/murders, the 2 are HUGE worldwide news. I am having my doubts he has killed before or in between NH/SF, because whatever subconscious action JVDS takes, he lives them out LOUD. I do believe he has witnessed murder before. Human trafficking, and that lifestyle is not devoid of violence against women.
 
Not sure what the age limit is, but all the kids with Natalie's group were in the casinos gambling. So they are either lax or the age maybe 18.

I read that he was 17 when he had the line of credit!
 
He was underage, too--he shouldn't have even been in a casino, legally. I wonder how or why the casino allowed him to gamble there? Maybe the laws were pretty lax there regarding this.

Hi, Columbo. I think that the gambling age rules in foreign tourist casinos and in Europe are often loosely observed. That's even true in the United States: I have heard of teenagers gambling with their parents in Nevada. Casino staff would recognize Joran as some one who gambled with his father and some one whose family permitted him to gamble with their money. (And the credit factor had a control factor too: Like my niece's cellphone bills, it could be precisely monitored.)
 
I read that he was 17 when he had the line of credit!

Yes, he was 17, but I don't know what the legal age to gamble is in the casino's in Aruba. Obviously the drinking age was low, maybe 17 or 18. Guess gambling could have been also. I don't know. tia
 
Kimmer:

Thank you for your welcome.

I found perhaps the most relevant parts of the confession as it pertains to my elbowing scenario.

Remember the translation is poor.


Q12. Do you get an object used to kill Stephany?
JVDS: - No
Q13. Specify where you have beaten her and how often.
JVDS: - I saw her only once beaten her nose with my right elbow.


Q24:. How do you explain the wounds in the face and several parts of the body and skull fracture noted during the autopsy?

JVDS:- “They sat on the bed when I gave her a hard elbow. I think her head back against the wall hit. Then she started to bleed. Then I immediately sat down on her and started to strangle her with two hands.”

And we must always remember, he is lying plenty in his "confession" and knows especially not to confess that this was a murder in furtherance of a robbery.

But if any of his confession is true, we can gather from the above, that she had severe skull and brain damage, and that he struck her only once with his right elbow. So my scenario likely has much truth in it, in that it was a massive blow, and not a glancing blow to the nose. Furthermore, I do not believe--and apparently neither do the Peruvian police--that it occurred as he says (sitting on the bed or such), else she would not have the massive skull and brian injuries.

And also I think they suspect too that it occurred while she resisted his robbery. The precise skull wounds will help prove (or disprove) my contention that she was held against a wall (or floor). I believe if she has skull wounds in the back of her head it helps prove she was held against a wall or floor when the one near-fatal elbow blow to her face was delivered.

Barbarino, Here is another question that I posted about a few days ago as far as the elbow blow....Ok if they are sitting on the bed looking at the net and she finds out about the Holloway case, and hits him on the left side of his head how is he able to immediately elbow her with his right elbow? surly if she was to his right she would not have hit him on the left side of his head if she was to his left then the right elbow makes no sense....I also think that the marks on her knees are carpet burns where she was trying to get away from him, I happen to believe that he was trying to get her to come off with her PIN information for her debit/credit card and he was above her and she was trying to get away and that he possible forced her face with great force into the floor also explaining the injury to her chin...and at that point he may have punched her in the face and then strangled her and then suffocated her....This is just my speculation as I am trying to understand her other injuries....Her whole right arm was bruised as well as both feet....The story he told just does not add up to her other injured, although he did say that she tried to get out of the room and he would not let her....Brutal Murderer is all I can say.
 
Lonetraveller.

Thank you for your comment and for informing us about the concrete wall. I did not see that--don't have TV right now. It does lend credence to my elbowing scenario, and to the police trying to pin him down about the skull damage, because they know he is lying about how and where he elbowed her.

Welcome Bobarino...great posts!

I have a question for you....when or how do you think her broken neck came to be in your scenario?
 
Hi, Columbo. I think that the gambling age rules in foreign tourist casinos and in Europe are often loosely observed. That's even true in the United States: I have heard of teenagers gambling with their parents in Nevada. Casino staff would recognize Joran as some one who gambled with his father and some one whose family permitted him to gamble with their money. (And the credit factor had a control factor too: Like my niece's cellphone bills, it could be precisely monitored.)

You are right about here in the states. Actually I have had friends that gambled in Vegas who were under age and all they did was make them pay back the money they had won. That doesn't seem quite fair does it? :)
 
Hi - here for the first time today so I have some catching up to do. Did anybody see The View today? I turned on my TV but backed up my TIVO to catch some of the show I had missed. Later Chris Coumo came on and began talking about having gone to Aruba to interview Joran's old girlfriend who had journaled about their relationship. He said this is interesting from the perspective of figuring out what/when he began to change into a person who kills. I thought I should record the segment (to catch her name, etc). I hit 'record' forgetting that I had backed up the program in the first place. I lost the segment I was trying to capture altogether :doh: (tivo began recording the 11 o'clock news instead of what I wanted).

Anyway, I'm pretty sure Chris Coumo does his full segment reporting for the show 20/20, so he'll have something about Joran coming up this week. 20/20 airs Friday night at 9:00 pm central.
 
For the record, I never wrote that the elbowing was the final COD (I cited the strangling etc.). Just that it more likely occurred in the scenario as I depicted and that it was not a glancing blow to the nose. And that it likely was in furtherance of the robbery, and it is obviously my opinion and speculation taken together with the damage to the face and skull. And that this was the only blow struck.

And I only ask about the use of the elbow in the first place, as most people if they were going to kill a girl would probably use their fists or do the strangling. Using one's elbow MAY indicate some prior training, and it is interesting that he had been in Thailand for some time before this. I know it is obvious for someone of his size to easily kill someone of her size, in countless ways. The point is she was rendered unconcious and skull damaged and highly likely brain damaged from a single elbow to her face, and I have been pointing out how he is lying about how and where it happened. And the police know this from their questioning and the (preliminary) forensic evidence, and have tripped him up good.

Hi, Bobarino, I admire your feisty speculating.

As for Joran's possible martial arts expertise, I have not heard any word of such training in five years and I'm not certain that his sojourn in Thailand was either long enough or focused enough to benefit from any such opportunities there.

What seems indisputable to me is that he has repeatedly displayed a major anger management problem.
 
Hi - here for the first time today so I have some catching up to do. Did anybody see The View today? I turned on my TV but backed up my TIVO to catch some of the show I had missed. Later Chris Coumo came on and began talking about having gone to Aruba to interview Joran's old girlfriend who had journaled about their relationship. He said this is interesting from the perspective of figuring out what/when he began to change into a person who kills. I thought I should record the segment (to catch her name, etc). I hit 'record' forgetting that I had backed up the program in the first place. I lost the segment I was trying to capture altogether :doh: (tivo began recording the 11 o'clock news instead of what I wanted).

Anyway, I'm pretty sure Chris Coumo does his full segment reporting for the show 20/20, so he'll have something about Joran coming up this week. 20/20 airs Friday night at 9:00 pm central.

You can go to ABC.COM and get the full view for today, if you are intrested.
 
I read also that his parents allowed him to drive when he was underage. They were way too lax with this kid!!

bolded by me.

You hit the nail on the head. That is truly the understatement of the year.

I don't know if setting boundaries would have helped with Joran, though--or solved his mental problems.
 
One thing I found interesting was the information that Erick Cabrera was supposedly in the casino that night and that he has been noted as a "friend" of Joran's in this article...

http://peru21.pe/noticia/495292/joran-van-der-sloot-declararia-viernes

"One person who has not given his statement is Erick Cabrera Cabrera, a friend of Joran and expert poker player was in the casino the day of the crime"

It also says that he hasn't given a statement yet. If I recall correctly Joran shook the hand of one of the players at his table as he was leaving the table and he was hanging around and talking to others who were milling around while he was waiting for Stephany to collect her winnings. I wonder if one of them was Erick Cabrera.

This made me wonder what language Joran and Stephany would have been conversing in that night at the table. Did Stephany have a good command of English or would they have been conversing in Spanish? There were several other people including the dealer at that table and I'm sure they would all have been questioned as to what they heard between Joran and Stephany. There have to be a lot of witnesses who might be able to provide some insight as to why Stephany and Joran left the casino together to go back to his hotel.

Erick Cabrera coincidentally went on to come in third in the tournament, pocketing over $88,000 dollars. Here is a picture of him from that final day.

11gop4z.jpg


I'm surprised that considering Erick is from Peru, he hasn't yet given a statement about the events of that night, especially if he was actually at the table with Joran and Stephany. Although I'm sure he would dispute the title of "friend" of Joran. He is from Peru...how could they be friends? More likely Joran was just throwing his name around since he is an expert player and was expected to be in the final round of that tournament. Joran probably had spent the previous two weeks trying to befriend him. Maybe that's how he blew through all his money. I would imagine that Erick would be playing at some pretty high stakes tables.

MOO
 
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