2010.06.01 - Defense Motion for Tips

AZlawyer said:

I know the gang thing was in at least 2 doc releases, but I also know there were hundreds of tips released close in time to the psychic tips that were "real" tips in the sense that they did not rely upon magic and could actually be investigated. Released along with those tips were reports on the investigation of those tips. Doesn't anyone else remember this?? The girl who said Casey and Caylee came in to apply for welfare? The people who supposedly saw Caylee at a restaurant, a hotel, a gas station? The reports of LE going out and tracking down multiple children aged about 2-5 years old and ensuring that they were not really Caylee?

To answer your question, yes the defense could have gone down and flagged the tips they wanted to copy and paid less.

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BBM

:wave: Over here!! Yes, I remember this as well, lol.

AZlawyer said:

BTW, is anyone besides me totally confused about something? When the tips were released, didn't we see hundreds of psychic tips AND lots and lots and lots of other tips including dozens of sightings of children who looked like Caylee and were tracked down by LE, sightings of Casey at a hotel and by the side of a road, tips that Caylee was being held in a specific house by a gang of some kind, etc.??

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You aren't the only one confused. I remember there being so many tips it was like trying to shuffle through a huge pile of junk mail. IIRC, that was in a lonnggggg time ago doc dump. I *think* it was before that huge 1405 pg. doc dump in Oct. '09. :waitasec:

notthatsmart said:

Like all the 911 calls related to this case. Also, JJ said they called in police for some clothes they found out at Blanchard park. I don't remember seeing that in the tips. How many times were police dispatched? I am amazed at how fast Ng gets a 911 tape for her show. IMO Moo

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911 calls are public records. Unless the SA is planning on using specific 911 calls in their case they have neither the obligation, nor the time or manpower to sort and sift them for the defense. You noted how fast and easily Nancy Grace can find and get a 911 call. Well the defense can do the same, and in this case the obligation to do so lies with them.

This is extremely similar to what the judge has just (once again) reminded the defense that they need to do. They need to do their own investigating. They cannot expect the state to generate their work product for them. JB needs to be doing alot more than showing up in court to earn his $90k. He needs to be researching and filing public records requests at a minimum. Not simply demanding that the SA "gimme!".

AZlawyer said:

What 911 calls do you think we haven't heard? I think we've heard all of them.

I do remember seeing tips about clothes found, bad smells detected, etc.

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I have no idea, but I do know that the Rk 911 call took until dec to come out. Wonder if there were others. I also wonder if Rk called the Anthony tip line and if we will ever get to see any of that. Just out of curiosity, I would like to hear someone try to convince Dc that the baby was in the gas tank.

Hopefully we will get new tips in the upcoming doc dump. Still looking for Mp interview. I would also like to see Jt interview if there was one. I have not heard the actual 911 calls for the child screaming in the woods. Everything I say is my opinion . thanks

Ps, didn't Rc, Kucher say they had been dispatched several times and it was difficult to remember which was which? Just asking. Don't know it as fact. thanks

faefrost said:

911 calls are public records. Unless the SA is planning on using specific 911 calls in their case they have neither the obligation, nor the time or manpower to sort and sift them for the defense. You noted how fast and easily Nancy Grace can find and get a 911 call. Well the defense can do the same, and in this case the obligation to do so lies with them.

This is extremely similar to what the judge has just (once again) reminded the defense that they need to do. They need to do their own investigating. They cannot expect the state to generate their work product for them. JB needs to be doing alot more than showing up in court to earn his $90k. He needs to be researching and filing public records requests at a minimum. Not simply demanding that the SA "gimme!".

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Would they also be public record during an active investigation? I think the Le just closed the investigation recently. So, hopefully they will all come out in the near future discovery, or perhaps someone from the press could go through them. IMO

AZlawyer said:

BTW, is anyone besides me totally confused about something? When the tips were released, didn't we see hundreds of psychic tips AND lots and lots and lots of other tips including dozens of sightings of children who looked like Caylee and were tracked down by LE, sightings of Casey at a hotel and by the side of a road, tips that Caylee was being held in a specific house by a gang of some kind, etc.??

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21merc7 said:

Yes on all above. And the gang of kidnappers were watching the A family, so they were scared. :innocent:

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Exactly this was my point in my reply to this thread earlier. We were given access to these tips and most of us sniffed through the multitude of pages. So what exactly is the problem that JB can't read from the same docs the public sees that were released under the sunshine act?

NTS, NG had a producer in Orlando getting the docs ASAP of their Public release. Nothing nafarious there either on NGs part OR the SAs office, just good foot work on the medias part. JB is far too busy trying to change the public opinions of his client instead of actually getting the documents he seeks. And with all the media getting them, he has a wealth of sites to download them from. HHJP put an end to this request yesterday and it is now a non issue. So why does JB continue on the merry-go-round? Don't answer that please, I am off that ride.

notthatsmart said:

Would they also be public record during an active investigation? I think the Le just closed the investigation recently. So, hopefully they will all come out in the near future discovery, or perhaps someone from the press could go through them. IMO

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Once again this is answered at the link provided earlier. Any questions about the sunshine laws can be answered at this link if you take the time to go through it. I would really suggest book marking this site for all your sunshine questions.
http://www.myflsunshine.com/

Specifically:
http://www.myflsunshine.com/sun.nsf/sunmanual/1BB05D142D8E4724852566F3006C7A1A

"A tape recording of a "911" call is a public record which is subject to disclosure after the deletion of the exempt information. AGO 93-60. If the "911" calls are received by a law enforcement agency and the county emergency management department, information which is determined by the law enforcement agency to constitute active criminal investigative information may also be deleted from the tape prior to public release."

So once again we would know of the call, but might not be privy to certain info on the call.

here are approx 131 pages of tips released in July of 09

http://www.wftv.com/pdf/20226973/detail.html

The kronk 911 calls were released in Jan of 09 (RK called on 8/11, 8/12 and 8/13 per the transcripts released below)- if you look at the first page of that same document release it has a 'transcript' (basically a synopsis of the call) of the crimeline call from RK on 8/12

http://www.wftv.com/news/18530327/detail.html

Since the defense has not given the state ANYTHING in discovery if they have found anything in their research for the case - we are unaware of it

All MOO

SoCalSleuth said:

Once again JB demonstrates what a [unusual person] he is. Last year he filed a request for ALL tips--then he complained to the judge that they wanted him to pay for it (par for the course), then he complained that they gave him all the tips when really he only wanted specific tips-well, that's what he asked for--they are not mind readers! Now he's saying they didn't provide unsolicited emails to LE regarding one individual's opinion on whether or not Caylee was in the woods at a particular time. That's not a tip. You want it you have to ask for it. I thought the Judge showed alot of patience with this [unusual person].

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JB did the same thing with the Texas Equisearch records that were at Mark Nejames office. It's clear JB doesn't want to review any tips or records of searchers or he would have done it many months ago.

notthatsmart said:

I see nothing wrong with Jb being paid 90k for his work. I think Todd or any other donor could allocate their donated money to whatever part of the defense they wanted. It sounded to me like these tips were not available and that there is some kind of misunderstanding about putting in motions for certain things. Jb was making it clear that someone at the sherrifs office was only providing phychic tips. Sa went ahead and made all the coppies for them since the Sherrifs office was being difficult IMO. At anyrate there was a mix up and now the Judge has approved the money for the records request. It is my opinion that these records were not always available.

How can the defense move on and move toward completion when the state is being difficult with discovery? It is my opinion that this trial will not move forward until the state turns over all discovery. The state turns over all discovery first, then the defense knows what they are defending against, in that order. That is my opinion. Yesterday the Judge took control of that situation and approved to pay for the tips. Now we can move on. IMO

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As per LDB these tips have been ready for months. The problem is JB doesn't want to pay for them. BTW JB should stop by Mark Nejames office, and review all the info on the searchers that have been ready for many months. Call a spade a spade JB is lazy, and wants everything handed to him. To me it just shows his lack of experience. JMO

notthatsmart said:

Well fishing may be okay. When you believe your client is innocent and the State believes she is guilty, your going to look at things differently. Problem is, is that the state whom thinks the client is guilty, is the keeper of the data. The law clearly supports the defenses right to discovery. The defense should have the right to look over the data and see if Le missed anything important. Call it fishing if you will. Obviously the Le did not take Rk tip serious enough to go down into the water and check it out. So in my opinion, the Le has shown me that they don't always act as though it is important. IE the Rk tip, IE the JJ tip, sealing the pontiac. A fishing we must go. IMO

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I believe the state has already caught the fish, and her name is CMA.

notthatsmart said:

I have no idea, but I do know that the Rk 911 call took until dec to come out. Wonder if there were others. I also wonder if Rk called the Anthony tip line and if we will ever get to see any of that. Just out of curiosity, I would like to hear someone try to convince Dc that the baby was in the gas tank.

Hopefully we will get new tips in the upcoming doc dump. Still looking for Mp interview. I would also like to see Jt interview if there was one. I have not heard the actual 911 calls for the child screaming in the woods. Everything I say is my opinion . thanks

Ps, didn't Rc, Kucher say they had been dispatched several times and it was difficult to remember which was which? Just asking. Don't know it as fact. thanks

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IIRC, the RK 911 call was made in Dec., and the body was found. I know he made at least 2 other calls, possibly 3, before that, but were those calls directly to 911 or were they calls to the tip line? TIA

Oops, sorry, BBM!

notthatsmart said:

Well fishing may be okay. When you believe your client is innocent and the State believes she is guilty, your going to look at things differently. Problem is, is that the state whom thinks the client is guilty, is the keeper of the data. The law clearly supports the defenses right to discovery. The defense should have the right to look over the data and see if Le missed anything important. Call it fishing if you will. Obviously the Le did not take Rk tip serious enough to go down into the water and check it out. So in my opinion, the Le has shown me that they don't always act as though it is important. IE the Rk tip, IE the JJ tip, sealing the pontiac. A fishing we must go. IMO

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Except the only fishing Baez has done has been with a fishing pole. If he'd actually, you know, DO SOME WORK, he might be able to come up with a defense! And yes, LE should ignore the HUGE amount of circumstantial evidence to follow every little bitty trail on the very MINUTE possibility that someone else did this. They don't have the time or the manpower to chase down every bit of craziness in this case. My GOD, this case would take forever if they did and they surely would be deserving of promotions for doing it.

Fishing is NEVER okay. Fishing means the defense has nothing else and only wants to find something, ANYTHING to point at that distracts the jury from the truth. LE doesn't have time for that. LE only follows other leads when it's necessary. It's not their JOB to clear Casey Anthony, nor is it the state's job to clear her either. Now if something substantial enough came up to suggest someone else, they shouldn't ignore that, but NOTHING like that has happened in this case. And neither of them are myserious "keepers of data" that just want to put innocent people in prison.

Also, CASEY got herself into this, got in deep, and now she can't get out. I am tired of seeing people wanting to blame everyone else for where she is when SHE is the one who got herself there through all of the lies to police and everyone she talked to. Now if her parents want to hire a competent investigator to find another REAL suspect, they should do that on their own time, or Baez should be doing that for Casey. LE is doing their job thoroughly in continuing to investigate Casey. There is simply no good reason to keep going after Kronk or anyone else.

And of course, if people that believe she might be innocent also want to help them do that, then by all means, they should do that. If it can be miraculously proven that Casey didn't do it, I am all for that. SHOW ME THE PROOF THAT SHE DIDN'T DO IT. PLEASE, I BEG ANYBODY TO DO THAT. The reason so many people believe she did it is because there just isn't a SHRED of proof that she didn't, and she sure doesn't act like she's innocent or give anyone a reason to believe her one iota.

Plus, if she were innocent, SHE WOULD NOT STILL BE IN JAIL WITH A FLAILING DEFENSE. And hell, even her own defense just admitted that she probably killed Caylee but didn't dispose of the body, a total 360 from saying she's innocent and we'll see the proof at trial. The defense can go fishing all they want, I mean for criminee's sake they want freaking BENCH NOTES. They can't find proof in the ACTUAL forensics to set her free! All they want to do is character assassination and say it's "junk science". THAT'S ALL THEY HAVE!

The SA nor anyone else needs to hand walk the defense through this. They shouldn't just get an all access pass to whatever they want. The prosecution is STILL waiting for something, anything from the defense because they haven't received ZIP. Why aren't more people worried about that? Is that fair that the defense is holding back everything they have but the SA should just give them everything? How is that going to lead to justice here?

If people want real justice, they have to have faith in the ENTIRE system and stop villanizing ONE SIDE. No one is ever going to find justice in any case as long as he or she keeps blaming LE and SA for every little thing that goes wrong or isn't done right. I have total faith that they are dotting every T and every I and making darn sure they do this right the first time around. If anything should be of worry in this case, it should be the fumbling, bumbling, still got nothing defense - they are the ones doing a real disservice to Casey, not LE or SA.

And I do want her to have a competent defense because I want this whole thing to be fair. I don't want to hear years of whining about an incompetent defense or God forbid she actually gets her conviction overturned because of it. I do wish the defense would just buckle down and do their job for once because I am sick and tired of them delaying and not doing anything to help out Casey one bit. If they want to go through thousands upon thousands of tips and quit whining and delaying for once, I would be ECSTATIC to see them to do that even though they probably won't find anything. At least they'd be freaking WORKING for once.


All of this is IMO.

marspiter said:

Once again this is answered at the link provided earlier. Any questions about the sunshine laws can be answered at this link if you take the time to go through it. I would really suggest book marking this site for all your sunshine questions.
http://www.myflsunshine.com/

Specifically:
http://www.myflsunshine.com/sun.nsf/sunmanual/1BB05D142D8E4724852566F3006C7A1A

"A tape recording of a "911" call is a public record which is subject to disclosure after the deletion of the exempt information. AGO 93-60. If the "911" calls are received by a law enforcement agency and the county emergency management department, information which is determined by the law enforcement agency to constitute active criminal investigative information may also be deleted from the tape prior to public release."

So once again we would know of the call, but might not be privy to certain info on the call.

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:wave:Thanks so much for posting the "sunshine" links marspiter.

Lanie said:

IIRC, the RK 911 call was made in Dec., and the body was found. I know he made at least 2 other calls, possibly 3, before that, but were those calls directly to 911 or were they calls to the tip line? TIA

Oops, sorry, BBM!

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IIRC I think both.

The topic in here is the defense motion for tips. if you are offtopic please move your post to the right thread.
Where this post lands on the thread is entirely random.

Well, I am thinking there is more. I can't see the defense putting in motions for something they already have. Thats my opinion. Makes sense.

notthatsmart said:

Would they also be public record during an active investigation? I think the Le just closed the investigation recently. So, hopefully they will all come out in the near future discovery, or perhaps someone from the press could go through them. IMO

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911 tapes are always public record. Most are available to be requested within 48 hours of the incident. (it may take a few days to recieve the info once requested) There are a few very specific cases where a 911 call may be sealed or redacted. Most of those circumstances involve the sexual abuse of children. None of the special circumstances apply to any known calls or situations in this case.

notthatsmart said:

Well fishing may be okay. When you believe your client is innocent and the State believes she is guilty, your going to look at things differently. Problem is, is that the state whom thinks the client is guilty, is the keeper of the data. The law clearly supports the defenses right to discovery. The defense should have the right to look over the data and see if Le missed anything important. Call it fishing if you will. Obviously the Le did not take Rk tip serious enough to go down into the water and check it out. So in my opinion, the Le has shown me that they don't always act as though it is important. IE the Rk tip, IE the JJ tip, sealing the pontiac. A fishing we must go. IMO

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No fishing is NOT ok. Proper investigating is fine. Pouring through records or evidence that the defense has a clear legal right to is fine. But any time they are touching ANY information that concerns third parties they must have a clear determinination of need. Note the State does not control TES's records. Those are the private property of a privately held organization or corporation. Such private institutions have a greater legal obligation to their personel and business than they do to a defendant. This is THEIR legal right. And no the defendant is not allowed to "fish" in whatever records they wish. Even if they think that there may be a faint hope that there is something that can be used to sway reasonable doubt. The defendant can request specific records as a matter of law. The property holder can contest such requests, and the defense will have to show a cause for the request. Something beyond a desire to see whats in them.

As far as the states obligations in what they have to release to the defense as part of discovery. As you say the obligation is very very clearly laid out in those laws and rules you mention. many of them have been linked here for you many many times. You keep referencing these vague claims on them, but don't appear to have actually read them. You seem to have constant confusion about what are discoverable materials, vs what are public records, or privately held third party records or work product.

To all evidence the prosecutors have been beyond scrupulous in what they have handed over to the defense. This has been further backstopped by the legally required document dumps to the public. So we are seeing whatever the defense gets from them. This makes any attempts to hide or obfuscate very hard. Now the prosecutors also have no obligation to do the defenses job for them. They are required to provide certain things. They appear to be pretty consistently providing well more than what they are required, in an extremely timely manner. In the end the defense has an obligation to do their own leg work. To issue subpoenas to third parties for information that they require. To be prepared to show cause for why they need it, to follow through and collect documentation that they request, and to absorb and pay for the expenses that they generate or cause.

JB should know at least the basics of this. It's what he went to law school for. It's what the bar exam is there to test for. There is more to Law then whining and wishing. The claim "but it should be" or "That's not fair" is not part of it. tightly defined rules precedents and procedures are what he was paid $90k for. Sofar it seems to be money poorly spent on somebodies part.

notthatsmart said:

IIRC I think both.

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If so, then at least Baez has been able to access the 911 calls RK made, and didn't have to go through the State to get them. Now that JP has told Baez to 'get it done' regarding the tips, we should be getting a new document dump pretty soon. I just wish we would get some kind of document dump of discovery from the defense to the State. The first one should be at least close to a thousand pages, after Baez being on the case for almost 2 years now, and I don't know about you, but I am very excited to see all the stuff he must have accumulated by now, especially the photo of Casey with ZG.

I believe there is only one reason that JB wants the tips. And he said it today after court during the press conference. He was asked why he wants GAs grand jury transcript. His answer? "Because the prosecution has it"
And that is the only reason he wants the tips-because the prosecution has them. I doubt he will follow up on any of them. He just wants EVERYTHING that the prosecution has!!!