2010.06.01 - Defense Motion for Tips

[PassTheMotrin]

Baez has had since October 2008 to get those tips. If he felt they were that important, he would have gotten them long ago. After all, his client's life is at stake.

http://www.clickorlando.com/news/17820774/detail.html

 

[Spangle]

I see nothing wrong with Jb being paid 90k for his work. I think Todd or any other donor could allocate their donated money to whatever part of the defense they wanted. It sounded to me like these tips were not available and that there is some kind of misunderstanding about putting in motions for certain things. Jb was making it clear that someone at the sherrifs office was only providing phychic tips. Sa went ahead and made all the coppies for them since the Sherrifs office was being difficult IMO. At anyrate there was a mix up and now the Judge has approved the money for the records request. It is my opinion that these records were not always available.

How can the defense move on and move toward completion when the state is being difficult with discovery? It is my opinion that this trial will not move forward until the state turns over all discovery. The state turns over all discovery first, then the defense knows what they are defending against, in that order. That is my opinion. Yesterday the Judge took control of that situation and approved to pay for the tips. Now we can move on. IMO

The tips have been ready for pick up for over a year. NOT A PROBLEM.

A little history to remind folks what is being talked about here. Since this started before the remains were found. When tips were being used to locate a MISSING child. For the defense, that means finding the missing child, finding and proving someone else besides the accused took the child, etc.

JB wanted ALL the tips and didn't want the LE to decide which were good or bad. Him and alot of folks were trying to claim that the tips were not being checked out, blah, blah, blah. The only way to PROVE it, was if the LE released ALL the tips. This was the claims and why JB requested ALL the tips.

When he found out how many there was, and that the LE was more then willing to hand them over..he changed his mind. He then claimed the LE was playing games with him by including ALL the psyco and nutty tips. And has been claiming that every since.

Somehow, the LE was suppose to know that when he requested 'ALL', he didn't mean 'ALL'. That they were suppose to remove the psyco and nutty ones, even tho he didnt' request them be removed. And in fact was acting like ALL just had to be had, to prove that ALL tips were being treated seriously.

Catch 22. If LE didn't release ALL the tips as requested, the claim would have been they where hiding tips that MIGHT prove KC is innocent. Or, at that time, find that baby quickly.

example, the TES files. JB doesn't want the important, relevant files. He wants ALL the files. With the tips, he wants just the relevant ones, not ALL the tips. ~ snort

So LE had no choice but give JB exactly as he requested at that time. Which was ALL the tips. He was allowed to have them if requested.

Can't have it both ways. He requested ALL tips. The clerks office in good faith did the work of copying, etc.. then JB refused to pay the bill.

Also, JB had over $200,000 to pick up those tips. He could have had those tips over a year ago. Money wasn't an issue in dealing with these tips.

 

[Spangle]

I am curious about this subject in particular. Do you know if the state has recieved discovery from the defense? How will we know that and how is it recorded and where do we go to find out such information?

For instance: If the defense turned over a witness list.

If the defense turned over photos of Kc and Caylee in a loving manner to show she was a caring mother.

If the defense turned over Morts interview with JJ.

How would we find out?

Also, if it is tied to Attorney client privilege, would we ever see that discovery?

Also, I remember a poster whose name rhymes with Judge, who said the state will never turn over exculpatory evidence. Don't know if he was right, but I have not seen much of that in discovery.

If an searcher emailed Ym saying that he searched that area and the body wasnt there. Way back in Dec of 08, I would consider that exculpatory evidence that should have been turned over in discover a long time ago. IMO

So, how could we possibly know when the defense turns over discovery if the state won't release exculpatory discovery?????????

Hmm.. Not always factual. Case in point.. all those tips that JB claimed to wanted, the later said it was pscyo and nutty tips. He doesn't want THOSE....

If such an e-mail was received, and investigated and found out the sender was not right in the head, lying, lived in another country and could not be there, etc, etc, etc.. basically proving that there was no way their statement was factual .. Then that wouldn't be considered exculpatory evidence. But someone wanting attention and needing help of some sort. ~ As noted, JB doesn't want THOSE....

Just because exculpatory evidence hasn't be released, doesn't mean that it is being held or hidden. It most likely means that there is no such exculpatory evidence.

 

[notthatsmart]

The tips have been ready for pick up for over a year. NOT A PROBLEM.

A little history to remind folks what is being talked about here. Since this started before the remains were found. When tips were being used to locate a MISSING child. For the defense, that means finding the missing child, finding and proving someone else besides the accused took the child, etc.

JB wanted ALL the tips and didn't want the LE to decide which were good or bad. Him and alot of folks were trying to claim that the tips were not being checked out, blah, blah, blah. The only way to PROVE it, was if the LE released ALL the tips. This was the claims and why JB requested ALL the tips.

When he found out how many there was, and that the LE was more then willing to hand them over..he changed his mind. He then claimed the LE was playing games with him by including ALL the psyco and nutty tips. And has been claiming that every since.

Somehow, the LE was suppose to know that when he requested 'ALL', he didn't mean 'ALL'. That they were suppose to remove the psyco and nutty ones, even tho he didnt' request them be removed. And in fact was acting like ALL just had to be had, to prove that ALL tips were being treated seriously.

Catch 22. If LE didn't release ALL the tips as requested, the claim would have been they where hiding tips that MIGHT prove KC is innocent. Or, at that time, find that baby quickly.

example, the TES files. JB doesn't want the important, relevant files. He wants ALL the files. With the tips, he wants just the relevant ones, not ALL the tips. ~ snort

So LE had no choice but give JB exactly as he requested at that time. Which was ALL the tips. He was allowed to have them if requested.

Can't have it both ways. He requested ALL tips. The clerks office in good faith did the work of copying, etc.. then JB refused to pay the bill.

Also, JB had over $200,000 to pick up those tips. He could have had those tips over a year ago. Money wasn't an issue in dealing with these tips.

Are you sure he wasn't claiming that the tips that were turned over that he paid for were only phsyco tips? He was asking for all tips, not just phsyco tips? Thats what it sounded like to me. It sounded like someone down at the Sherrifs office is playing games with the tips. Finally Sa steps in and coppies all tips and makes them available, but not until after the game has been played? that is my take. The Judge steps in and provides the money after the defense request as so ordered. I don't think I am missing anything here. The defense complained that they have not had access to all tips, the Judge and the Sa acknowledged that and are now after many months providing the full list of tips. Thats the way I understand it. IMO

 

[notthatsmart]

I believe much of this has been answered for you before.

"#What is a public record?

The Florida Supreme Court has determined that public records are all materials made or received by an agency in connection with official business which are used to perpetuate, communicate or formalize knowledge. They are not limited to traditional written documents. Tapes, photographs, films and sound recordings are also considered public records subject to inspection unless a statutory exemption exists.

# Does an agency have to explain why it denies access to public records?

A custodian of a public record who contends that the record or part of a record is exempt from inspection must state the basis for that exemption, including the statutory citation. Additionally, when asked, the custodian must state in writing the reasons for concluding the record is exempt.

# When does a document sent to a public agency become a public document?

As soon as a document is received by a public agency, it becomes a public record, unless there is a legislatively created exemption which makes it confidential and not subject to disclosure."http://www.myflsunshine.com/sun.nsf/pages/FAQs

So in other wards as soon as the defense gives it to the SA or clerk of court it becomes public record. If that info is not eligible for release according to sunshine the agency must state why that info is not eligible for release. So if the defense did hand anything over we would know..that or we would know it was handed over but not what was handed over to put it simply.

In regards to exculpatory evidence the state would be required to turn over such evidence as it's part of due process. If not it would be clear grounds for an appeal. It's part of the US Supreme Courts decision in Brady v. Maryland 373 US 83 (1963).

http://supreme.justia.com/us/373/83/
So in other words that poster would be wrong in that assumption.

In regards to your email statement I believe you are referring to JJ. If I recall JJ gave a sworn statement negating his email comments.

HTH

Bolded: This is what I am talking about. Is it not most likely that anything that the defense turns over to Sa will fall under one of these exemptions?

 

[notthatsmart]

Just out of the hearing and I have to say that the motion regarding JB's request for the nearly 5,000 tips was very interesting!

He claimed that LE was trickling tips to him at KC's expense and selectively giving whatever they felt like.

He first claimed that LE decided to only give the psychic tips and then others but made him pay 1,000 and then another 600.00 for the other tips.

SA claimed that they had copied all of them and left them available for the defense to pick up as soon as they paid the costs equalling 1,500.00.

What is the truth here?

Do you think the HHBPJ is onto JB. He seemed to say (in my words)...so just go get them...she is indigent now and it is all free! I authorise 2,000 for that expense!

Would love to hear what you all think of this?

And if it is true that the Sherrifs office is trickling tips at a cost of 1000 plus 600 and then the Sa office coppies all of them and charges another 1500, that is a total of 3100.00 So I hope they were not playing a silly trickle down the tips game, because it will have back fired on them if the tax payer has to foot the bill. I think there should be an internal investigation into this now that tax payers are footing the bill. IMO

 

[AZlawyer]

Bolded: This is what I am talking about. Is it not most likely that anything that the defense turns over to Sa will fall under one of these exemptions?

No. Also, it appears that, in Florida, attorneys are required to file notices of disclosure (we don't do that here), and we haven't seen any from the defense.

 

[AZlawyer]

BTW, is anyone besides me totally confused about something? When the tips were released, didn't we see hundreds of psychic tips AND lots and lots and lots of other tips including dozens of sightings of children who looked like Caylee and were tracked down by LE, sightings of Casey at a hotel and by the side of a road, tips that Caylee was being held in a specific house by a gang of some kind, etc.??

 

[marspiter]

Bolded: This is what I am talking about. Is it not most likely that anything that the defense turns over to Sa will fall under one of these exemptions?

Highly unlikely as it would have to be something that is specifically protected from release according to Florida statute. There are very few things that will fall under that category. This link is a good starting location http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/

Also I believe I answered that in the post you quoted. It's right there in the point above the one you bolded.

Here it is again:

# Does an agency have to explain why it denies access to public records?

A custodian of a public record who contends that the record or part of a record is exempt from inspection must state the basis for that exemption, including the statutory citation. Additionally, when asked, the custodian must state in writing the reasons for concluding the record is exempt.


Perhaps that part of the post was over looked. In essence what it says is, if the defense turned anything in to the clerk of court or the SA we would know. We might not be privy to what was turned in, but we would know something was turned in. You wouldn't have to explain why an item is not eligible if there is no item to be ineligible. Does that make sense?

HTH

 

[notthatsmart]

BTW, is anyone besides me totally confused about something? When the tips were released, didn't we see hundreds of psychic tips AND lots and lots and lots of other tips including dozens of sightings of children who looked like Caylee and were tracked down by LE, sightings of Casey at a hotel and by the side of a road, tips that Caylee was being held in a specific house by a gang of some kind, etc.??

I remember the specific house by a gang thing, but think that was part of earlier doc dump and not part of that tip dump.

Question: If they release it to the defense in a cd format for 1000 dollars, how does the defense go through each and every tip and only buy the ones they need? I am seeing this being discussed, and was wondering how this is possible? Can they go down there and just flag the ones they need and have the sherrifs office make a new cd with only the tips they want? And charge less? thanks and hope you know.

 

[21merc7]

BTW, is anyone besides me totally confused about something? When the tips were released, didn't we see hundreds of psychic tips AND lots and lots and lots of other tips including dozens of sightings of children who looked like Caylee and were tracked down by LE, sightings of Casey at a hotel and by the side of a road, tips that Caylee was being held in a specific house by a gang of some kind, etc.??

Yes on all above. And the gang of kidnappers were watching the A family, so they were scared. :innocent:

 

[notthatsmart]

Highly unlikely as it would have to be something that is specifically protected from release according to Florida statute. There are very few things that will fall under that category. This link is a good starting location http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/

Also I believe I answered that in the post you quoted. It's right there in the point above the one you bolded.

Here it is again:

# Does an agency have to explain why it denies access to public records?

A custodian of a public record who contends that the record or part of a record is exempt from inspection must state the basis for that exemption, including the statutory citation. Additionally, when asked, the custodian must state in writing the reasons for concluding the record is exempt.


Perhaps that part of the post was over looked. In essence what it says is, if the defense turned anything in to the clerk of court or the SA we would know. We might not be privy to what was turned in, but we would know something was turned in. You wouldn't have to explain why an item is not eligible if there is no item to be ineligible. Does that make sense?

HTH

Yeah that makes perfect sense. So my question is, how would we know? Is it listed on the web? I mean to say, I hope we are not at the mercy of the press, because they may not even request such things. Where is there a web site that I can go look and see if the custodian has stated anything in writing? to include a statutory citation. thanks

 

[AZlawyer]

I remember the specific house by a gang thing, but think that was part of earlier doc dump and not part of that tip dump.

Question: If they release it to the defense in a cd format for 1000 dollars, how does the defense go through each and every tip and only buy the ones they need? I am seeing this being discussed, and was wondering how this is possible? Can they go down there and just flag the ones they need and have the sherrifs office make a new cd with only the tips they want? And charge less? thanks and hope you know.

I know the gang thing was in at least 2 doc releases, but I also know there were hundreds of tips released close in time to the psychic tips that were "real" tips in the sense that they did not rely upon magic and could actually be investigated. Released along with those tips were reports on the investigation of those tips. Doesn't anyone else remember this?? The girl who said Casey and Caylee came in to apply for welfare? The people who supposedly saw Caylee at a restaurant, a hotel, a gas station? The reports of LE going out and tracking down multiple children aged about 2-5 years old and ensuring that they were not really Caylee?

To answer your question, yes the defense could have gone down and flagged the tips they wanted to copy and paid less.

 

[AZlawyer]

Yeah that makes perfect sense. So my question is, how would we know? Is it listed on the web? I mean to say, I hope we are not at the mercy of the press, because they may not even request such things. Where is there a web site that I can go look and see if the custodian has stated anything in writing? to include a statutory citation. thanks

I suppose we would know because a "Notice of Disclosure" would appear on the docket, filed by the defense. At that point, if the media hadn't yet requested that the State release documents received from the defense (and not just documents sent to the defense), you can bet your life they would send out a request that very day.

 

[notthatsmart]

I know the gang thing was in at least 2 doc releases, but I also know there were hundreds of tips released close in time to the psychic tips that were "real" tips in the sense that they did not rely upon magic and could actually be investigated. Released along with those tips were reports on the investigation of those tips. Doesn't anyone else remember this?? The girl who said Casey and Caylee came in to apply for welfare? The people who supposedly saw Caylee at a restaurant, a hotel, a gas station? The reports of LE going out and tracking down multiple children aged about 2-5 years old and ensuring that they were not really Caylee?

To answer your question, yes the defense could have gone down and flagged the tips they wanted to copy and paid less.

I think I remember a witness saying that she saw Kc talking to her daughter in walmart. I am sure these tips were released, but there must be more. IMO

 

[marspiter]

Yeah that makes perfect sense. So my question is, how would we know? Is it listed on the web? I mean to say, I hope we are not at the mercy of the press, because they may not even request such things. Where is there a web site that I can go look and see if the custodian has stated anything in writing? to include a statutory citation. thanks

You really need to thoroughly examine the links provided to you. Once again this questions would be answered for you if you followed the link I provided about the sunshine laws.

http://www.myflsunshine.com/sun.nsf/pages/FAQs

I'm sure you could contact the clerk of courts office in Orange County just as Muzikman does.

 

[notthatsmart]

Like all the 911 calls related to this case. Also, JJ said they called in police for some clothes they found out at Blanchard park. I don't remember seeing that in the tips. How many times were police dispatched? I am amazed at how fast Ng gets a 911 tape for her show. IMO Moo

 

[notthatsmart]

I suppose we would know because a "Notice of Disclosure" would appear on the docket, filed by the defense. At that point, if the media hadn't yet requested that the State release documents received from the defense (and not just documents sent to the defense), you can bet your life they would send out a request that very day.

Thank you very much and that explains it. Now I just need to go find the dockett to make sure that hasn't happened. thanks

 

[marspiter]

Yeah that makes perfect sense. So my question is, how would we know? Is it listed on the web? I mean to say, I hope we are not at the mercy of the press, because they may not even request such things. Where is there a web site that I can go look and see if the custodian has stated anything in writing? to include a statutory citation. thanks

I suppose we would know because a "Notice of Disclosure" would appear on the docket, filed by the defense. At that point, if the media hadn't yet requested that the State release documents received from the defense (and not just documents sent to the defense), you can bet your life they would send out a request that very day.

Also as AZ is saying there would be a "Notice of Disclosure" on the docket which would also be at the Orange County Clerk of Courts office.

Heres the link: http://www.myorangeclerk.com/

More specific here is the actually cases record. http://myclerk.myorangeclerk.com/CaseDetail.aspx?CaseID=6236234

Also I believe the news thread always shows an updated docket when something new is added thanks to the wonderful sleuthing by WS members.

 

[AZlawyer]

Like all the 911 calls related to this case. Also, JJ said they called in police for some clothes they found out at Blanchard park. I don't remember seeing that in the tips. How many times were police dispatched? I am amazed at how fast Ng gets a 911 tape for her show. IMO Moo

What 911 calls do you think we haven't heard? I think we've heard all of them.

I do remember seeing tips about clothes found, bad smells detected, etc.