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02-13-2009, 03:00 AM #1
Theories On What Happened to Caylee Part #5
Please share your theories about what may have happened to Caylee.
02-23-2009, 09:35 AM #2
Murder/Suicide Gone Awry?
Of the many theories discussed here, I don't believe I've seen this one yet.
Does anyone think there is a possibility that KC's original plan was to kill Caylee, and then herself? It would seem like the ultimate gesture to her mother, to take away "both" of her "daughters" in one fell swoop.
By June, she was at the end of her life of lies, people were starting to discover all her thefts, her lies, and her imaginary jobs. Suicide may have looked like the only way out, and there was no way she was leaving her daughter behind to enjoy all the sympathy that CA wasn't giving her real daughter...
But when it came down to it, KC didn't have the nerve to finish herself off too. She decided to start a new life, as if reborn, and pretend her old life didn't exeist anymore. Or simply enjoy the time she had left to the fullest.
This could explain several odd things in the case:
1. KC's exuberant behavior immediately after the murder. If KC felt that she had narrowly avoided death herself, then decided to "live it up" with the time she had left, start a new life.
2. The June 21 diary entry. Could the decision she refers to be the decision to live, rather than the decision to kill her daughter.
3. The odd bits of evidence pointing to Blanchard Park. Was this where people were supposed to find "poor" KC and her daughter dead?
4. The bits of "motivational" songs, pictures, and poems KC was apparently obsessed with in the weeks following the murder. Justifying her decision to stay alive?
5. KC's fatalist determination to never confess in any way. If she view's her daughter's death as an unfortunate side-effect of a failed suicide attempt, then she has no reason to confess. And a confession could incite the death penalty, resulting in the loss of the life she has "chosen" to keep living.
6. The many petty thefts she couldn't possibly hope to cover up forever. Crimes she knew would turn her whole family against her. But didn't care because she wasn't planning on being around for very long.
7. A big bottle of drugs with hypodermic possibly found at dumpsite. If this gatorade bottle contains what most of us our theorizing it does, the substance used to kill Caylee, its obvious that there was plenty left over, a large amount of thick white residue. Enough for two?
8. No evidence of brutal trauma to Caylee's remains, the heart sticker, and the inclusion of favorite toys/blankets/etc in the "burial" packing. These all indicate a "gentle" murder. Quick and clean is the hallmark of murder/suicides, as opposed to the obvious aggression shown in rage murders, or the unintentional damage of covered-up accidents.
I could go on with these for awhile. I'm not even sure I ascribe to the theory, but it could explain alot of odd things in the case.
Anyone have some oddities they've noticed that a failed murder/suicide theory could explain?
Or reasons why this theory is just completely implausible?
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02-23-2009, 09:42 AM #3Registered User
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I mentioned it here long ago and I am sure others have as well but no one really gives it much thought, myself included, especially after the revelation of the duct tape over the mouth.
If anything, if the defense decides later to try for an affirmative defense, this may be one of the scenarios they settle on. Something similar to what Betty Broderick or Susan Smith claimed."Leave her to heaven and to those thorns that in her bosom lodge to prick and sting her."
Hamlet by William Shakespeare
In context, the quote was meant to advise against revenge but in the Anthony case,
I offer it to the parents as advice to "leave her to Heaven" and cease their ill-placed protection.
02-23-2009, 09:45 AM #4
i AGREE with this! Mentioned along time ago. Actually we just had this happen in our area. Mother smothered son, tried to slit her wrists and couldn't do it.
Casey's actions exhibit those of someone contemplating suicide.
02-23-2009, 09:46 AM #5Registered User
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I'm no expert but it doesn't seem plausible to me that she could go from a suicide plan to having the best time of life without skipping a beat..She also didn't seem worried about stealing from family/friends cos that habit never died (no pun) after Caylee did & with nothing much left of her I don't think it can just be assumed it was a gentle murder..If I consider her internet searches it actually points away from that theory..Above all else I believe she loved herself way too much to do herself in & everything she did before (& after) the fact backs that up for me.
02-23-2009, 09:51 AM #6
You make some good points, HOWEVER, there is nothing in me that believes that KC intended to kill or even harm herself.
1. KC's exuberant behavior immediately after the murder. She was happy Caylee is dead. She had a new lease on life. No more little snot head.
2. The June 21 diary entry. Could the decision she refers to be the decision to live, rather than the decision to kill her daughter. Nah.
3. The odd bits of evidence pointing to Blanchard Park. Was this where people were supposed to find "poor" KC and her daughter dead? I honestly think she mentioned BP to throw investigators, yes. In fact, I was one who was duped. On my trip to Orlando in November to help with the TES search, I even made an after-dark trip to BP/Little Econ river to say goodbye to Caylee. The day LP's divers found that bag I was completely frozen and glued to my computer.
4. The bits of "motivational" songs, pictures, and poems KC was apparently obsessed with in the weeks following the murder. Justifying her decision to stay alive? See #1. She was thankful for her "second chance" at life as a "free woman". Oh, the irony...
5. KC's fatalist determination to never confess in any way. If she view's her daughter's death as an unfortunate side-effect of a failed suicide attempt, then she has no reason to confess. And a confession could incite the death penalty, resulting in the loss of the life she has "chosen" to keep living.She began spinning her web of lies quickly and furiously, from the very beginning. She will never confess. Ala Scott P. P.S. There's a difference between not confessing a lying in respinse to every single question you're asked by LE.
6. The many petty thefts she couldn't possibly hope to cover up forever. Crimes she knew would turn her whole family against her. But didn't care because she wasn't planning on being around for very long.She didn't care because her actions have been overlooked and she was enabled by her family for YEARS.
7. A big bottle of drugs with hypodermic possibly found at dumpsite. If this gatorade bottle contains what most of us our theorizing it does, the substance used to kill Caylee, its obvious that there was plenty left over, a large amount of thick white residue. Enough for two?Was it a hypodermic needle or a syringe? Huge difference, IMO.
8. No evidence of brutal trauma to Caylee's remains, the heart sticker, and the inclusion of favorite toys/blankets/etc in the "burial" packing. These all indicate a "gentle" murder. Quick and clean is the hallmark of murder/suicides, as opposed to the obvious aggression shown in rage murders, or the unintentional damage of covered-up accidents."Soft" murder is indicitive of infanticide, too. Besides, anything other than drugging would have potentially created a mess and would definately have been too much effort for her. Hell, she couldn't even bury Caylee, just threw her away like trash.
Last edited by Patty G; 02-23-2009 at 09:58 AM. Reason: Fixed bold quote, edited Miss P to KC"Lost is not alone..." T. Miller, Founder TES (and MY HERO!!!)
"I am only one, but I am one. I cannot do everything, but I can do something. And because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do the something that I can do. What I can do, I should do. And what I should do, by the grace of God, I will." -
Edward Everett Hale
02-23-2009, 10:05 AM #7
What an interesting theory BuffaloPI. Thanks for sharing this in a post. I'll add my thoughts to your theory in blue, I hope you don't mind.
Last edited by Kat; 02-23-2009 at 10:13 AM. Reason: One of my response was the same text color as OP"Three things in human life are important: The first is to be kind; the second is to be kind; and the third is to be kind." ~ Henry James
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02-23-2009, 11:02 AM #8
With regards to Blanchard Park, there are anecdotes of finding items that some (LP among them, so take this with an enormous grain of salt) attributed to KC setting up some sort of memorial to Caylee by the lake there. A shamrock, a cross/necklace made of craft materials similar to those seen in the Anthony household, and a bag of still-undisclosed items recovered by LP's divers.
There were also cell pings placing her in or near the park in mid-June, when LE believes the murder was committed.
*If* these are valid reports, and were placed there by KC, then it could be indicative of her prepping her own "grave site" with memorial items she wanted to be surrounded with, as opposed to memorializing her daughter.
Again, these are mainly curiosities.
My prevailing theory is still that KC (in her mind) euthanized Caylee like an inconvenient pet, wrapped her up like a dead pet, and placed her in the pet cemetary.
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02-23-2009, 11:09 AM #9
KC is a narcissist, a malignant narcissist to be exact. Narcissist's don't kill themselves, they love them selves too much. The only thing KC seems to value is her own rear end. That combined with a sociopathic or even a psychopathic personality disorder allowed her to kill her own child and not feel bad about it in the least. That's why the DP is about the only punishment that will truly scare her. They would be taking away the thing she loves the most....herself."When it all goes down the crapper, don't come crying to me. You were warned" - ecs5298, November 6, 2012
02-23-2009, 02:09 PM #10
My Theory (opinion only based on what I've read and seen in the case)
*WARNING - contains upsetting scenarios & theories *
If you take into account everything that has been released in the case, this is how I believe the story played out... sad, so sad and poor baby girl who did not deserve this.
June 15 - Caylee's last full day of live. Went with grandma to visit great grandpa. I believe that KC was supposed to go as well, but ended up having better things to do, so Cindy took the baby with her.
Cindy and Caylee return home, and a fight ensues between KC and her mother.
Perhaps, little Caylee, having spent the day with grandma, displays loyalty to Cindy which deepened KC's hostility towards her mother and the child and begins to set her long-thought of plan into motion.
That night, a long conversation with Tony - about what?
Maybe his reluctance to have children - perhaps KC trying to have the "where are we" convo. Do they fight and talk about breaking up? The future? Where they are going? I believe they do. I also believe that KC may ask if she and Caylee can stay with him for awhile, to which his answer is no. (Remember, Ricardo had no problem with Caylee spending the night, but perhaps Tony wasn't so relenting about a little girl in his home.)
KC feels she has no out. She feels trapped and suffocating. On top of it all, her own daughter loves grandma more than she loves her.
KC decides it has to end. She needs to be free. It isn't like she's murdering her own child, afterall, Caylee loves Cindy more and is basically her child and not mine.
I could just leave her with Cindy and George, but no - then my wicked mother will get what she wants and Caylee will grow up under her roof with her rules and her life will be ruined just like mine was.
KC believes she is right - justified in what she plans. She's thought it through, now is the time to carry it out.
June 16 - What is in KC's bag? Tape? Medication? Something that will bring little pain but have the desired effect.
She and Caylee leave at 1PM from the house - but they do not go far. KC takes Caylee to a nearby park for a last hurrah. She gives her daughter the tainted juice, with enough medication (whatever it is) to do the trick.
Back in the car, Caylee gets sleepy, closes her eyes. She is just sleeping, KC thinks to herself. From an outside persepctive, there is a sleeping child in the car seat in the back.
She drives aimlessly, planning out her next move.
4:10 - I believe this is around the time that Caylee is no longer alive.
KC tries calling her mother, her father, hermother again - what would she have said had the calls been completed? The story may have followed a different path.
But there was no answer from her mother and father. They were not home.
KC returns to the home and uses the duct tape (yes, I believe she duct-taped her daughter afterwards, to set up the plan that a kidnapper stole her baby girl.)
She places her daughter in a bag, and for convenience (and lack of a better plan), stashed her little body in the trunk of her car.
She then spends the night with Anthony - pushing aside all negative thoughts and forgetting the unthinkable act she carried out that day, except for this - She needed information about a dead body in the trunk of a car - did it smell? How long before it decomposed? How much time did she have? Untraceable as a "study guide".
On the 17th, still in "plan-mode" she returns to her parents house and grabs the necessities she'll need, including the canvas laundry bag which may have been how she packed some clothes. I do not believe she intended to use this to house Caylee's body, but eventually decided it was ideal for that purpose. She also sends a few messages to friends from the computer, and who knows what else during the time she is at home.
June 18 - KC knows she cannot continue to carry her daughter's body around. She returns home in the afternoon and requests a shovel from the neighbor. Her intent? Getting rid of the body from her trunk, perhaps burying it in the backyard of her house. But wow - it's a lot of work to dig, and it's taking forever - not the best plan, she decides, and returns the shovel.
But she has to figure out what to do with the body. Pings show her traveling through different areas, including Econ Trail - perhaps looking for a suitable place that would be well hidden.
After driving aimlessly, she decides that one more day won't ruin the plan. It's getting late. She has to get back to Tony's.
During the next few days, she continues to work out a plan for disposing the body, and begins to build and work out details of her "kidnapper story". Returns home several times, backing her car into the garage. I believe that KC's plan was to stage that Caylee accidentally drowned in the pool, but for whatever reason, she decided this would not be believable. Perhaps because they would find the drugs KC used to poison her daughter in her system.
Steals the gas cans on the 23rd because her car (with her baby's body in the trunk) ran out of gas. Does not let Tony near the car, she puts the gas in by herself.
The following day, June 24th, KC sends a message to Troy stating that there is drama w/ the family and she hasn't been home. George files burglary report on gas cans. KC doesnot let him near the trunk and actually spits out "Here's your F'in gas cans" to divert attention from the trunk of the car.
June 25th - the smell is getting bad. KC calls Amy and begins the story of the squirrels. I believe she also at this time used the canvas laundry bag to try and conceal the smell or prevent it from getting worse.
I also believe this is the day when KC disposes of the body right off of Suburban drive.
Her car runs out of gas or has car troubles (IE the smell is absolutely awful) on the 26th.
It remains at Ascott from this day forward.
That is what I believe happened. Feel free to challenge it or add information or tear it apart.
Such a terrible tragedy. I am forever heartbroken for angel Caylee.
02-23-2009, 02:21 PM #11
15th...I think if they had talked about such heady stuff we would have known that through one of his interviews with LE by now.
Duct tape: I wish we had an indication of how much duct tape was on Caylee's mouth. Doc dumps suggest it was not wrapped around the skull. The docs say "piece was placed over the mouth area", which got hair caught on both sides.
I don't believe KC tried to stage a kidnapping. If so, she would have dumped the body much farther away. She didn't think that far ahead. I believe the tape over the mouth was either after Caylee was dead, or very close to dying. There have been suggestions Caylee was getting to the stage where she could talk better and may have spilled the beans about some of KC's activities. The piece of tape may have been symbolic of "you're now quiet for good". The heart? "Here's a little kiss from mommy. Please don't take this personally little Caylee".
02-23-2009, 02:33 PM #12
its just disgusting... i cant fathom doing that to a helpless child, let alone my own. i just want to wrap her(casey that is) mouth with duct tape, double bag her body and then throw her out like she was trash. i would make sure she would feel and know everything that is happening to her. i pray to god everyday that caylee didnt know this was happening to her. just mo
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02-23-2009, 02:39 PM #13
i have seen/heard absolutely nothing to support the thought, or even the fleeting notion that casey was suicidal and people like her value themselves far too much to ever cause themselves harm.people are like stained-glass windows. They sparkle and shine when the sun is out, but when the darkness sets in, their true beauty is revealed only if there is a light from within.
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02-23-2009, 02:46 PM #14
Good points - I REALLY feel that it was LAZINESS on her part that it was not dumped further away. That and the fear of running out of gas again.
Also, I just read today that on the corner of Hopespring and Suburban is a house owned by Peter Gonzalez. Zenaida Almodovar lives right next door. Is this a coincidence or where she got her idea for the "nanny's name".
ITA, 100% that the duct tape was symbolic, as was the heart sticker.
02-23-2009, 03:00 PM #15
We haven't yet seen LE's interview with Tony about his conversations with Casey on June 15 until 3 a.m. June 16. But, we all know it exists.
Tony says Casey was home. He said that he can prove she was home because LE has her phone pings (that's what he told the SM website). Which means George probably saw Casey and Caylee at 1 p.m. June 16. LE took clothes like the clothes Caylee was supposed to be wearing after Caylee's body was found (white sunglasses, denim skirt etc.).
Anyway, as I have said before, at 1 p.m. June 16, Casey told George Caylee wasn't coming home. Caylee was alive and in Casey's arms when she said it.
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02-23-2009, 03:06 PM #16
I agree.. it was laziness not to dump the body further away. I believe KC thought the body would never be found. After all.. she was able to wait a week before disposing of the body, and a full month before anyone even got suspicious that they hadn't seen Caylee.
IIRC, there's an entire thread dedicated to the Gonzalez house. It was active a few months ago, when all the P.I. videotaping stuff was a hot topic.
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02-23-2009, 03:13 PM #17
02-23-2009, 03:21 PM #18
Yet she told her parents and Lee that she felt she was "close by".
I truly feel that KC, in her own warped head, believed that she was smarter than anyone and could outwit them - she even posted on her Cupid profile that she would love to go on Survivor, quoting "Outwit, outplay, outlast".
Another quote: "live for the future, forget the past"
KC you tried, but you failed. And I hope you suffer for the rest of your life.
02-23-2009, 05:02 PM #19
TonE didn't want Caylee sleeping over.....and I have a suspicion that Caylee didn't sleep well without her Mommy. She slept in the same bed with KC at the A's house and at Ricardo's. I think it was probably a huge struggle to get Caylee to sleep when KC didn't come home.
Problem was, KC had a new boyfriend that was expecting her to sleep over (and without Caylee).
I think something huge happened during the phone call with TonE and she had a moment of "I'm going to do this"....be it because Caylee was interfering with her new relationship with TonE.....because she couldn't be living the life she wanted to.....because CA was making it difficult for her to leave Caylee. She decided that morning that she was going to kill Caylee and told George they wouldn't be back!
I think that is what GA's testimony to the Grand Jury was all about -- that KC told him Caylee wouldn't be coming home.
02-23-2009, 05:05 PM #20
They would not have anything to release if they did not record the previous interview and did not prepare any report about it--just kept it in "raw notes" form.
JB could still depose Tony and figure out what he knows if he's any good at constructing a line of questioning.
03-09-2009, 12:53 AM #21
bumping thread to ask a question to all members, not specifically Seebra:
what i don't get... is if KC truly wanted to try to pin this on "zenaida", why on earth would she leave all those personal possessions (diary, pics, book, etc) with caylee's body? we know KC is lazy, but you'd think she'd be smarter than this - if she was determined to persevere with the nanny story. am i missing something? some other reason she'd do this?
(if this has been discussed elsewhere, pls forgive me. i've looked but couldn't locate... )
03-09-2009, 03:36 AM #22
03-09-2009, 08:24 AM #23
03-19-2009, 01:24 PM #24
Did co-sleeping play a central role leading to Casey's actions?
I'm unable to source it...but, thinking lately that the co-sleeping arrangement w/ Caylee & Casey I'm hearing more about may have been at the core of the dynamic fueling Casey's actions, and Caylee's demise 6/16PM.
If accurate, Caylee not able/willing to go to sleep w/o Casey was perhaps...
- the reason she shared the bed w/ Casey & Ricardo.
- the reason it may have been difficult for Cindy to keep Caylee w/o Casey @ home @ bedtime - creating a tie that binds - and a directly compelling reason for Cindy to want Casey on a short leash...totally crashing any evening-out plans Casey might want to make...ever
- the reason Tony represented such a self-serving symbol of 'freedom'. His postion that his apt. was not a good place for Caylee - while it created an issue - also created a dream-come-true excuse for Casey to jettison the ball-and-chain responsiblity that was her daughter if only for a few hours at a time...
Interesting that we haven't heard anything from G or C about this dynamic and ZFG. IOW...if Cindy had difficulty getting Caylee to go down...she was willing to believe that ZFG got her down w/o issue...OR...she was curious about it and discussed it w/ Casey and we aren't hearing about this detail.
This may have also been a spark for the 6/15PM fight, with Casey wanting to escape back to Tony's..(esp. if Nate was outta town) and Cindy needing to go to work 6/16AM...not wanting to deal w/ an inevitablely tearful and protracted bedtime that night.
Under the circumstances of the evening, 6/16, I can easily envision a Casey blow-up 6/16PM whilst she tried to get Caylee down so she could escape to Blockbuster & Tony...perhaps in the Pontiac w/ some OTC/Rx assistance....not working fast enough...duct tape employed Casey thought...She TRIED to get Cindy to let her drop Caylee off @ Gentiva! She TRIED to get Amy! It'll just be a few hours...right?!?!
03-19-2009, 02:07 PM #25
Oh, I think you are onto something BIG. I've posted a couple of times that the co-sleeping situation was a major issue in that house.
I have friends that started co-sleeping at the newborn phase to make nursing and sleeping easier only wind up sleeping with their toddler until they were 4-5 years old....most enjoying every moment of it but admitting they were the only ones to get their child to sleep and it required them being in bed with them.
Bedtime would NOT be easy without KC.... ever.
I think it's exactly why she shared a bed with Ricardo and Caylee.
It's why CA would call KC in the middle of the night to come home....probably because Caylee woke up scared and in a panic waking the entire house. (I swear I remember posting about this but can't remember which thread...maybe the "where exactly Caylee died thread??")
KC was Caylee's "lovie" to fall asleep with which breaks my heart even more.
KC knew she couldn't bring Caylee to TonE's.....and she knew she couldn't leave Caylee alone to sleep at the A's. Co-sleeping was a major thorn in her side.
Good post, BJB!!!
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