Premeditation

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marspiter said:
Is this an implication the the SA's office is leaking information in a way that is not covered under the Fl Sunshine laws? To me it seems this is alleging that the SA's office is guilty of some sort of impropriety?

I believe that the SA's office is holding back evidence and we have yet to see all the evidence of this case because of the Sunshine laws. We are still a long ways from trial here. Also if the state had smoking gun evidence it may be prudent of them to ask for it to be sealed or to wait to release it because of it's inflammatory nature. For example I seriously doubt the public will ever see the pictures of the skull with the duct tape around it.
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The sealing of what evidence has caused reporters and the crimetainment media to go bananas)?

(good clue here)
 
wonders said:
I believe 3 pieces of duct tape placed across Caylee's nose and mouth warrants premeditation. KC could have stopped at the first piece of tape and then remove it but she didn't she placed 2 more.
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What true, relevant and highly reliable premises force your conclusion that the duct tape proves premediation?

(The reliablility of the conclusion cannot be greater than the reliability of the premises.)
 
ZsaZsa said:
If you obstruct breathing death will result. The duct tape on the face of a dead child is the evidence. The only function of that duct tape was to obstruct breathing. The person that applied that duct tape caused her death.
If you do not understand the connection between applying duct tape to seal off the airway then there is nothing I can say to convince you, nor do I wish to. I am quite sure a Jury will understand the correlation. The manner of death was homicide.
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Thank you ZsaZsa. Clicking the thanks button was just not enough for me.
 
Wudge said:
The sealing of what evidence has caused reporters and the crimetainment media to go bananas)?

(good clue here)
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They sealed the video taped reaction of Casey in jail reacting to investigators arriving at the site where Caylee was found because it was inflammatory. To me that tape shows signs of conscientiousness of guilt. That's why it was sealed for being inflammatory.
 
Wudge said:
What true, relevant and highly reliable premises force your conclusion that the duct tape proves premediation?

(The reliablility of the conclusion cannot be greater than the reliability of the premises.)
Click to expand...

Premeditation does not require that the murderer pondered before committing the crime. Placing three pieces of duct tape over the nose and mouth to completely obstruct breathing,wrapping it around the head to firmly secure it, and by doing so cause death shows premeditation.There was no other intent than to cause her death. There was no other purpose for duct tape over the airways than to cause death.
 
Wudge said:
What true, relevant and highly reliable premises force your conclusion that the duct tape proves premediation?

(The reliablility of the conclusion cannot be greater than the reliability of the premises.)
Click to expand...

But we still have the placement, plus the Buck precident. That will not go away.
 
There is a lot of OT discussion here and I got one alert about it.
So, please everyone stay on topic. Read the OP if you do not what the topic is.
gracias.
 
Just a theory, but premeditation with all the duct tape found on her isn't hard to imagine.

I'll throw out a what if, and a plausible premeditation theory. What if, Casey placed duct tape on caylee while alive and caylee pulled at the duct tape attempting to get a hole to breathe through (fight or flight reaction to having airways blocked) Casey places another, and caylee again pulls at the tape, then a third...again she's struggling. The fourth peice not found on the skull could have been to tie back her arms from struggling to get air passages on her nose and mouth.

MOO...it was premeditated. It doesn't take a second, in the heat of the moment to place all that duct tape on a childs airways. With an extra 4th piece placed god knows where. It takes a long while to do all this taping.

If it were an accident. do you really think casey would stage caylee with such detail? I think she'd panic.
 
marspiter said:
They sealed the video taped reaction of Casey in jail reacting to investigators arriving at the site where Caylee was found because it was inflammatory. To me that tape shows signs of conscientiousness of guilt. That's why it was sealed for being inflammatory.
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Exactly. Neither we nor the media know of other evidence that has been sealed.
 
ZsaZsa said:
Premeditation does not require that the murderer pondered before committing the crime. Placing three pieces of duct tape over the nose and mouth to completely obstruct breathing,wrapping it around the head to firmly secure it, and by doing so cause death shows premeditation.There was no other intent than to cause her death. There was no other purpose for duct tape over the airways than to cause death.
Click to expand...

How much of the duct tape was wrapped around Caylee's head?

(When an inferred conclusion has problems, the first thing you do is check the truth and/or reliability of your premises. If your premises contain errors, your conclusion must suffer too.)
 
Wudge said:
What true, relevant and highly reliable premises force your conclusion that the duct tape proves premediation?

(The reliablility of the conclusion cannot be greater than the reliability of the premises.)
Click to expand...


My reasonable thought process.


1,2 and 3 pieces of tape plastered to Caylee's nose and mouth. KC had to pick that tape up from somewhere around the Anthony home. Put the tape nearby sometime. Pick up the tape again to apply it to Caylee.
She wanted that child gone and she saw to it that Caylee would be gone.
Thus in my mind PREMEDITATION.


No we will never know scientifically if Caylee suffocated from her nose and mouth being DUCT TAPPED but I think any reasonable person can conclude for themselves that that just may be the way Caylee died.
 
Brini said:
Actually most of the "poor souls" who were wrongfully convicted were convicted prior to advanced DNA tech, and other forensic tech-- not the press.

In all high profile cases, there is a lot of publicity. We have a free press, and that is a double-edged sword.

Also, the public antics of the defendant, the family, and the defense attorney hsve increased the "profile" of this case dramatically.

However, that's what the courtroom is for-- to present the evidence in a sequence and manner that is understandable to a jury.

And, again-- the fact that there have been 130 exonerations, 23 (IIRC) in Florida, indicated that due to advanced forensic science things are getting better parabolically.

We also must consider that prolly at least as many perps have ESCAPED arrest and conviction due to the same former deficits in forensic science that have existed in the past.
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But for the antics of the defense and the A clan, I suspect public interest in release under the Florida Sunshine laws would have waned quite a bit. ITA, the defense seems to want this in the public eye and keep the interest in the case high. (Likely for selfish motives.) Were it not for those not working for the state, we'd likely not have seen the plethora of discovery that shows premeditation in this case. Instead, many of us would likely still be hanging on to and/or hoping it was a tragic accident.

The defense claims to not want this case tried in the media but imo it's their efforts that have provided the interest and therefore the discovery to the public that has imo proven their client murdered Caylee cruelly and with premeditation.

I also agree that wrongful convictions have decreased dramatically and continue to decrease. Any idea how many wrongful convictions happened say, within the last 5 years? 10?
 
celticthyme said:
Grand Jury indictments:
(Forget the Ham sandwich)
ETA THIS WAS BEFORE THE BODY WAS FOUND, The 31 days and duct tape . . . nails in the coffin

1. The first count is for first-degree murder, a capital offense that is punishable by the death penalty.

This charge alleges that Casey Anthony caused the death of Caylee “from a premeditated design” between June 15 and July 16. Those dates correspond to the last time Caylee was seen and when she was reported missing. The indictment offers no other information on how, why or when.
2. Count two is aggravated child abuse.
This alleges that between the same dates Casey Anthony “did knowingly or willfully…causes reat bodily harm, permanent disfigurement or permanent disability to Caylee Marie Anthony…by intentionally inflicting physical injury…or by intentionally committing an act or actively encouraging another person to commit an act which could reasonably expected to result in physical injury.”
3 Count three is aggravated manslaughter of a child.
This count alleges that Casey Anthony caused Caylee’s death by failing to provide “the care, supervision and services necessary to maintain Caylee Marie Anthony’s physical and mental health” or that she did not make “a reasonable effort” to protect Caylee from someone else abuses, neglecting or exploiting her.
4 – 7 Counts four through seven are all “providing false information to a law enforcement officer.”
Each count lists a time when Casey Anthony is alleged to have lied to investigators about Caylee.
Count four says she lied to Orange County Sheriff’s Office Detective Yuri Melich when she said she worked at Universal Studios in 2008.
Count five alleges she lied to Melich when she said she left Caylee with a woman named Zenaida Gonzalez.
Count six alleges she lied to Melich when she said she told two former Universal Studios employees that Caylee was missing.
And count seven alleges Anthony lied to Melich when she said she received phone call from Caylee on July 15
__________________
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Thanks for looking up the indictment and providing detail. Remember too, under Florida law, LIO's or Lesser Included Offenses do not have to be specifically charged in the indictment. In essence, KC also faces 2nd degree murder; manslaughter and all other LIO's of each named count on the indictment. The only charge that requires premeditation as an element is 1st degree murder. Per Knight, felony murder may also be instructed and also carries a maximum sentence of dp.

From Florida Standard Jury Instructions, page 113:

"7.1 INTRODUCTION TO HOMICIDE

Read in all murder and manslaughter cases. In this case (defendant) is accused of (crime charged). Give degrees as applicable. Murder in the First Degree includes the lesser crimes of Murder in the Second Degree, Murder in the Third Degree, and Manslaughter, all of which are unlawful."

From Florida Standard Jury Instructions, page 50:

"3.4 WHEN THERE ARE LESSER INCLUDED
CRIMES OR ATTEMPTS

Give before reading charges on lesser included crimes or attempts. In considering the evidence, you should consider the possibility that although the evidence may not convince you that the defendant committed the main crime of which [he] [she] is accused, there may be evidence that [he] [she] committed other acts that would constitute a lesser included crime [or crimes]. Therefore, if you decide that the main accusation has not been proved beyond a reasonable doubt, you will next need to decide if the defendant is guilty of any lesser included crime. The lesser crimes indicated in the definition of (crime charged) are:

(List — see chart that follows instruction on the crime charged.)"
 
Wudge said:
The sealing of what evidence has caused reporters and the crimetainment media to go bananas)?

(good clue here)
Click to expand...

Recently the defense appeared in court to compel the State to put forth information

http://www.cfnews13.com/uploadedFil...ommunications with Law Enforcement, et al.PDF

However, the State replied that it was not their job to get as yet released information from FBI & forensics, which they themselves did not have . .
They may be sitting on some information, but the Defense seems to want the State to do their legwork for them., ie requesting results from latent prints etc, if they really believe there are no prints, it belies credibility for them to request the specific information.

The problem is, there is no 'defense" there for the prisoner, and the sooner they can go after, what they perceive to be specific forensics . . well you get the point
 
Wudge said:
How much of the duct tape was wrapped around Caylee's head?

(When an inferred conclusion has problems, the first thing you do is check the truth and/or reliability of your premises. If your premises contain errors, your conclusion must suffer too.)
Click to expand...

BBM

Enough to hold Caylee's mandible in place until the tape was removed by the ME.
 
ZsaZsa said:
Premeditation does not require that the murderer pondered before committing the crime. Placing three pieces of duct tape over the nose and mouth to completely obstruct breathing,wrapping it around the head to firmly secure it, and by doing so cause death shows premeditation.There was no other intent than to cause her death. There was no other purpose for duct tape over the airways than to cause death.
Click to expand...
Yup...IMO picking the tape up, cutting it, and placing it on Caylee supports premeditation and aggravated child abuse.
 
tweety933 said:
How do we know that Caylee's hands were not tied or taped together? What evidence that has been released convinces you of such a thing?
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As far as I know, there has been no specific evidence/discovery released to date to indicate one way or the other. The jury, however, may draw inferences from evidence presented including the extraneous piece of matching duct tape found at the remains scene and they may use their inferences to determine guilt as well as premeditation. Absent a confession and witnesses, the only way a jury can come to any determination is to examine the evidence presented to them and to draw reasonable inferences from that evidence. Just as the state will build their case block by block, the jury will also built their verdict in a similar fashion. A + B + C = KC is guilty of premeditated murder.
 
marspiter said:
Is this an implication the the SA's office is leaking information in a way that is not covered under the Fl Sunshine laws? To me it seems this is alleging that the SA's office is guilty of some sort of impropriety?

I believe that the SA's office is holding back evidence and we have yet to see all the evidence of this case because of the Sunshine laws. We are still a long ways from trial here. Also if the state had smoking gun evidence it may be prudent of them to ask for it to be sealed or to wait to release it because of it's inflammatory nature. For example I seriously doubt the public will ever see the pictures of the skull with the duct tape around it.
Click to expand...

There is no impropriety by the state. Unless and until some evidence of impropriety is shown, the lack thereof is a fact. The defense likes to whine about "leaks" when they are the ones causing the interest and drawing attention to discovery released as required by law. They could have had a gag order and prevented these doc dumps but chose to fight against it. Bad move, imo.
 
tweety933 said:
How do we know that Caylee's hands were not tied or taped together? What evidence that has been released convinces you of such a thing?
Click to expand...

ZsaZsa said:
There is no evidence of that.
If you can't breathe it doesn't make much difference. Death would ensue very rapidly.
Click to expand...

I agree that there is no smoking gun evidence of Caylee's hands being restrained, however, I'm not comfortable myself in saying there is no evidence of it. Q104, the Henkel tape found near Caylee's remains versus on her skull, suggests that Caylee's hands may indeed have been restrained.
 
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