Omaha Double Murder #2

waltzingmatilda said:

Thank you Omaha. The profile mug shot does resemble the composite sketch in Tom and Shirlee's case, IMO. It will be interesting to follow this story for any additional charges. I wonder if this guy's m.o. was to follow/stalk the housekeeper in order to target certain homes in upper class neighborhoods. The article didn't state in what type of neighborhood this occured, but I infer that in must be an affluent one. (Who can afford a house keeper in this economy?) Do you know the distance between McAllen and Omaha?

wm

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Hi WM:
McAllen, Texas is practically in Mexico......too far to be connected I believe.

Yellow Dog- nice to see you back again.

I was going back over old posts today. Does anyone remember when someone posted in the original thread about some Russian guy the Hunters may have known and that he was supposed to possibly be mixed up in all this somehow? I can try to pinpoint the poster but if anyone recalls this or if the person making the post is following, maybe you can elaborate.

Good hearing from you both Snick and YD.

Here's the post Snick referred to above....page 11 of thread 1...post 274...link below

~respectfully snipped~

04-15-2009, 11:01 PM
Ryuzaki
Registered User Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 14

oh well i figured you may have looked over that article it's been floating around this thread for some time, you just asked me for validation on body placement. I am very frustrated by the lack of fresh information, wish i could have brought something new, i mean I've heard someone with a connection say something about a suspect who is a Russian male somehow intertwined with the family in a weird way, nothing concrete, as for the way they were killed it is true they were stabbed in the neck, but the husband whose wife read the full police report said that it was far more vicious and gruesome than the police had revealed to the public, thats all he said thats all his wife told him, it was something meant to be kept to herself.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67963&page=11

Please note that I've seen no confirmation in news media about this allegedly suspicious Russian man in R's post.

wm

I find the fact that both were stabbed in the neck strange. If you grabbed someone from behind, it seems like it would be more difficult to stab them there than in the chest or the abdomen as you would probably have your hand around their neck to immobilize them. Would there be less bleeding if stabbed in the neck? And, if you approached them straight on, it would seem logical to stab in the chest area. Was it a medical person who went straight for the carotid artery knowing it would be fatal almost immediately? Of course, if they were tied up first, that would change the whole scenario and maybe they were. We don't know.

YellowDog said:

I find the fact that both were stabbed in the neck strange. If you grabbed someone from behind, it seems like it would be more difficult to stab them there than in the chest or the abdomen as you would probably have your hand around their neck to immobilize them. Would there be less bleeding if stabbed in the neck? And, if you approached them straight on, it would seem logical to stab in the chest area. Was it a medical person who went straight for the carotid artery knowing it would be fatal almost immediately? Of course, if they were tied up first, that would change the whole scenario and maybe they were. We don't know.

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I have never read or heard anything to indicate they were tied up first, and some of my contacts would know if this were so. In fact the indications appear to be that they were taken by surprise and dispatched quickly. I think the location of the wounds is suggestive- this was someone who knew where to attack them to quickly neutralize them. It is possible that a lay person could have picked this up but my idea is that this suggests either a medical education or a professional hitman.

Building upon my above post # 60.......

I've gone back to the beginning and read and re-read news articles and all of your posts.

First of all, I have wondered why the perp arrived at the Hunter home while both Tom and Shirlee were present. What is the simplest explanation?

I think it was simply to ensure gaining access to the Hunter residence.

Think about it from a parent's perspective. Tom was most likely a 'latchkey kid' for a few hours in the afternoon til his parents arrived home from work. It is a universal rule among parents that 'under no circumstances do you answer the door". However, if an adult, like Shirlee, is present, then the probability of gaining entrance is doubled. Regardless of who answered the door, the perp requested to see the other person and stepped inside to 'wait'.

This is another reason I think Tom was being tracked thru his online activities, whether gaming or chat rooms. My guess is gaming which is sometimes thru a broadband or cable connection and Tom enjoyed playing, inferred from his game being set on pause when the murders occured. I also think Mrs. Hunter is correct in questioning whether the house was being cased. (per above linked article from Omaha World Herald).

Also, the website by 'Omaha', linked by Snick on the previous page (IIRC) poses the question, 'Why did the murders occur on the one day of the week that Shirlee Sherman was working at the Hunter home?' (not exact words but you get the gist) My opinion is because it was simply to ensure a greater probability of gaining access into the Hunter residence.

I think this perp 'did his homework' in order to get away with this crime. It seems very well thought out and calculated, IMO.

This is my theory and opinion, for today anyway. Please feel free to debunk, discuss, etc. I am just trying to get a discussion going. Let's remember...Means....Motive....Opportunity....

I am interested to read others theories.

wm

Waltzing Matilda - very well thought reasoning about picking the day for the murder. The big question then becomes motive and why someone wanted to kill them. Was it revenge against the parents or someone targeting Tom or Shirlee for some other reason?

Maznblu1 said:

Waltzing Matilda - very well thought reasoning about picking the day for the murder. The big question then becomes motive and why someone wanted to kill them. Was it revenge against the parents or someone targeting Tom or Shirlee for some other reason?

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I really don't know where to go from here, but here's my thinking for now. There was nothing taken from the residence that has been reported. Shirlee even had a large sum of money in her purse which was not taken. Apparently, the motive was NOT robbery. This article http://www.omaha.com/article/20091025/NEWS01/710259859

states The killer left behind bloody knives, Claire Hunter said. But police told the Hunters that they found little other physical evidence.

The inference that I glean from this statement is that the killer brought his own knives and left them behind. (were the knives left in the bodies? Ugh! I hate typing that thought.)

So if the killers motive was not to steal anything then was it to leave something? Like a calling card or message? KNIVES in the victims throats? The victims cartoid arteries were allegedly slashed, causing sure and instant death. Who would have such knowledge? Not your average Joe, IMO. Someone was showing off their skills!?

The Forensic Astrologers say the charts indicate the perp is technologically inclined. I do believe this is true and if my pc goes on the blink after posting this (as it has in the past when I posted controversial topics on this thread), I will really be freaked out.

My stance remains the same as it was in the beginning. The answer lies behind the walls of Creighton. This could be the result of something that happened years ago that the Drs. Hunter have long forgotten or not. But this is just my gut feeling.

Whatever the motive, I feel it is waaaay bigger, deeper, darker and dangerous than I really like thinking about.

As always, MOO, of course.

wm

Great post Matilda ... If I recall correctly the Astro's also said the killers came from far away. We have discussed that out-of state plate on the vehicle he drove. The killer obviously was skilled in his method of murder, but I was always bothered by the fact he left the knives. That to me says he did leave the knives in their bodies, it was a message to either or both Dr's. So that, in conjunction with all you stated above indicates planning/premeditation. I also agree with you that the answer lies with Creighton, I thought that from the get-go.

What gets me is the timing. Mom was in Hawaii, Dad was at work and as you said the day Shirlee was in the home to clean. Thomas had not been home from school for long. Who had access to all of these people's schedules, their comings and going. Thomas could be tracked easy enough through the online gaming as you said, heck we can see when each other are online here at WS. But the others required a little more effort. Would an outsider unrelated to Creighton know the Dr's schedules? This may be way out there, but what about a phone tap? Surely Claire would be discussing her flight schedule, when she would depart and return, making arrangements for Thomas, perhaps calling Shirlee to give her special instructions. What better way to know of the intimate details of that day ....

The knives were indeed left in the bodies. I cannot say how I know this but they were. This had the effect of minimizing bleeding, the crime scene was described by on scene investigators as 'very neat' and 'clinical.'
I cannot say what this indicates. I would still like to know if the knives were from the kitchen or brought in. I did see one drawing of the murder weapons and they appeared to be what you'd find on a kitchen counter.

The crime scene as you described it above is either a professional hit man or someone related to the medical field who has above average knowledge of the human body, IMO.

Would the killer come with no murder weapon? This said in reply to your thought the knives were from the home. Did something change once he entered the home and he decided not use his weapon? We know he had a satchel on his shoulder correct? When he made his move on Shirlee was the knife rack in the home closer and quicker than reaching into the satchel? After finishing with Shirlee, he hears Thomas coming up the stairs from the basement and grabs another knife, chases him into the dining room? There was never a need to use his own weapon.

Was there any description of the knives? Wood or synthetic material handles? Just thinking about how he would have avoided leaving prints. Leather gloves on when he entered?

Sorry to be so graphic.

Knox....those were my exact questions.......totally what I've been pondering but just couldn't get them all typed out......thanks for wording them so eloquently.

Good God....this case just seems to sound even worse (if that's even possible) as time goes by and details come out.....how absolutely awful.

I still believe organized crime is responsible for this....this seems to support my earlier theories about Russian Mafia.

The Drs and son could have been stalked for quite a while through online gaming, social networking, telephone/cell, any use of web scheduling tools...very scary.

Not out of the question by any means SnowAngels. Being lazy by not going back to look for your prior posts; Can you tell me why you think they would be targeted by RM?

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4376330#post4376330"]Omaha double murder - Page 33 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

#814 on

[SIZE=+1]The Mafiya deals in prostitution, extortion, and drug-trafficking in the United States, but on a much smaller scale than many of their competitors. What they have done better than any other organized crime unit is run mid-level scams of petroleum distribution, black-market freon deals that net more per pound than heroin, and telecommunications fraud. They deal in tax-free gas and cigarettes, sell stolen cellular phone codes, and make a killing at fraudulent health insurance schemes.

http://www.taipanonline.com/archive/0197/0197_crime.html


[/SIZE]

Snick1946 said:

The knives were indeed left in the bodies. I cannot say how I know this but they were. This had the effect of minimizing bleeding, the crime scene was described by on scene investigators as 'very neat' and 'clinical.'
I cannot say what this indicates. I would still like to know if the knives were from the kitchen or brought in. I did see one drawing of the murder weapons and they appeared to be what you'd find on a kitchen counter.

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If they were typical kitchen knives that could be bought in many, many stores without raising any suspicion, it would make sense for the killer to leave them at the scene. If stopped by the police, he wouldn't have the murder weapons on him or in his vehicle. I think he wore the long dark coat to cover his clothing and protect it from blood spatter. He probably ditched the top coat as soon as he could. He must have been wearing gloves, because I've read nothing about fingerprints being left at the scene.
This just seems like a cold, calculated, pre-meditated killing. Maybe only one person was targeted and they did not know the second person would even be there. I think whoever did this knew anatomy well enough to know where to stab the victims so that death would be certain and quick. It's such a gruesome case and so hard to believe that no one knows anything with it happening in the middle of the afternoon in an otherwise quiet neighborhood.

There is something eerily quiet about this investigation........makes you wonder.

Knox said:

[SIZE=+1]The Mafiya deals in prostitution, extortion, and drug-trafficking in the United States, but on a much smaller scale than many of their competitors. What they have done better than any other organized crime unit is run mid-level scams of petroleum distribution, black-market freon deals that net more per pound than heroin, and telecommunications fraud. They deal in tax-free gas and cigarettes, sell stolen cellular phone codes, and make a killing at fraudulent health insurance schemes.

http://www.taipanonline.com/archive/0197/0197_crime.html


[/SIZE]

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Knox, I am building on your post but wish to thank you all for your great ideas.

This post bothers me personally because both my cell phone and car keys were stolen recently but one week apart, both on a Friday.

Regarding your questions about surveillence. There is LOTS of different equipment available....from small GPS tracking devices for attaching to vehicles to even the tiniest camera which is inside of a screw which attaches something to your wall. It is amazing what is available these days!

The fraudulent health insurance scam is intriguing to me and here's why. We have discussed on the previous thread that perhaps something WAS taken but just wasn't noticed....like a zip drive. The fact that the poi arrived with a satchel for a laptop leads me to believe that he brought it along for a reason. Could he have copied files from the Hunter home pc to his computer in his satchel? And how would he know that either Dr's brought work home? If so?

My guess would be that he was after proprietary information from Mrs Hunter since she is a cardiologist and sees patients. Mr Hunter being a pathologist would not likely have patient information pertaining to prescriptions, IMO. However, I guess SS#'s of deceased patients would be desirable for a cyber criminal who fraudently files medicare claims.

These are just some thoughts and possibilities in my mind....for today anyway.

All MOO.

wm

I've kept up with this series of threads intermittently, but I seem to recall reading in an earlier post (which may or may not have been accurate) that the theory of the order of the murders was Tom first and Shirlee 2nd. And that Tom was found murdered in the kitchen (possibly seated at the table?) while Shirlee was found in a hallway not visible from the kitchen and she was next to a bucket of cleaning supplies.

which always suggested to me and i believe others delineated this theory as well:

Shirlee answers the door and lets the killer in (most likely on Tom's authority or say so?). Tom comes upstairs from playing video games in the basement and Tom and the killer go into the kitchen (which it sounds like probably had some sort of door--quite common in older, larger homes). The killer's method of killing Tom prevents Tom being able to call out or scream and so Shirlee is not alerted. The killer then proceeds to find Shirlee and kill her in a similar manner.

Again, I don't know that any of the above is what in fact happened, I just recall earlier posts containing the above theories.

And if you consider the logistics of killing 2 people in the same house without the act of killing the first alerting the 2nd then it makes sense, I think, for the killer to first target Tom. A smaller individual whom the killer could in one mostly quiet motion restrain, muzzle with a gloved hand perhaps and then do the despicable deed, while holding the body in place so it doesn't go thump.

Also, if for some reason Tom were to call out, it's more likely that Shirlee attempts to come to Tom's aid than if the killer were to struggle killing Shirlee and she somehow is able to alert the child; the child's instinct to run away would likely take over and an 11 or 12 year old can likely get away more quickly (and would be quickly given assistance by neighbors) than a 50 something person.

And I thought the order of the killings and location of the victims in the home is why many of the working theories in this thread tried to sort out the killer's connection to Tom. It just doesn't make sense that Shirlee would let anyone into the house without Tom giving his say so. And Shirlee seems to have simply announced Tom's visitor to him and then returned to cleaning. Whereas if she got the sense the visitor were a stranger to Tom, she might hover about a bit to make sure everything's ok. Maybe do some cleaning in the kitchen while the 2 people talked.