17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #31

grandmaj · Apr 23, 2012

m00c0w said:
I'm referring to the "brother" being home and Martin was allegedly out getting him skittles, to Martin having begged the father to be let out of the house with the trip to the store as an excuse. And the "brother" not having been mentioned since the initial reporting of the event.

http://edition.cnn.com/2012/03/30/us/trayvon-martin-profile/index.html

I have not seen anything since the initial reports of Martin going to the store to get him candy that implicitly or explicitly states the "brother" was home at the time. This is why I asked for evidence. Is that too much?

OK we have to go with what MSM says. And nothing more. So if there is a link somewhere fine it can be discussed. But otherwise this young man is a minor and we aren't going down the road of sleuthing on him.

Thanks.

m00c0w · Apr 23, 2012

grandmaj said:
OK we have to go with what MSM says. And nothing more. So if there is a link somewhere fine it can be discussed. But otherwise this young man is a minor and we aren't going down the road of sleuthing on him. Thanks.

And I'm just asking for a link to something that a previous poster asserted that I have not seen myself.

ETA: To me, the brother's presence in the home is extremely relevant because it might alter Martin's actions. If the brother was home, I could see him not wanting to go back, or possibly being locked out. If the brother was not home, Martin surely had a key or some other way to get into the house - I don't think he would have locked himself out. I'm not asking for anything regarding the brother other than evidence he was actually home at the time.

Adrienne37 · Apr 23, 2012

m00c0w said:
I'm referring to the "brother" being home and Martin was allegedly out getting him skittles, to Martin having begged the father to be let out of the house with the trip to the store as an excuse. And the "brother" not having been mentioned since the initial reporting of the event.

http://edition.cnn.com/2012/03/30/us/trayvon-martin-profile/index.html

I have not seen anything since the initial reports of Martin going to the store to get him candy that implicitly or explicitly states the "brother" was home at the time. This is why I asked for evidence. Is that too much?

Again, you plainly stated in your original post....

Is there actual evidence the "brother" was home that night? So far, I've seen the story change a few times on that one. The final version of events implying he was not home.

You state you have seen the story change a few times on that one. The final version of events implying he was not home. I've personally seen absolutely nothing in the MSM to indicate that the 13-year-old was not at home yet you state that you've seen the story change a few times. Where are the links to the MSM articles stating that the brother may have or may not have been at home. Additionally, the final version of events imply that he was not home, where is a MSM link to this information? I'm sure I know where you've read this information at but I would like a link from a MSM source documenting what you state as fact.

It's not unreasonable of me to ask for a link to an article be supplied if a poster is stating it as fact.

~jmo~

grandmaj · Apr 23, 2012

m00c0w said:
And I'm just asking for a link to something that a previous poster asserted that I have not seen myself.

ETA: To me, the brother's presence in the home is extremely relevant because it might alter Martin's actions. If the brother was home, I could see him not wanting to go back, or possibly being locked out. If the brother was not home, Martin surely had a key or some other way to get into the house - I don't think he would have locked himself out. I'm not asking for anything regarding the brother other than evidence he was actually home at the time.

I understand your point. And the only article in MSM I've seen says he was home. Again if he is a minor we can't go sleuthing out anything on him except as it is in MSM. Which means for at least now, the article we read says he was home waiting. Frustrating I know that we can't be sure of the facts. Gotta wait for a doc dump. The best we have now is MSM.

badme102 · Apr 23, 2012

Adrienne37 said:
Why would O'Mara apologize if he didn't speak her name during the hearing? He knows full well that this child is a minor and he didn't need to do that. I guess he has the same selective hearing about not needing to do something that Zimmerman does.

~jmo~

That's why I was asking if they took it out. I never heard him say the name and couldn't find it anywhere.

daisy7 · Apr 23, 2012

I saw someone asked earlier about the location of the 7-11. The Herald has some great maps on their site.

I can't seem to copy the pics, but the link is here http://www.miamiherald.com/trayvon-martin/index.html

PaintingAnemone · Apr 23, 2012

ScubaTwinn said:
I totally agree. WHY let someone know where you live? And apparently his younger brother was there.

I have been jogging and had someone stop their car blocking the sidewalk across the street to take the hard top off their car. And they kept watching me approach, watching, watching, paying more attention to me than their car. And I stared back, memorizing the car, what he looked like, anything that I might need to know. When I got to the street he was parked on blocking the sidewalk, I took an immediate left into the yard and ran through the yard clear up to the front doors. I kept running through yards, right up next to their front doors. I PASSED my house up because no one was home at the time and I wasn't about to let this person know where I lived. I was ready to bolt if he so much as moved and start banging on one of these doors and yelling. I kept turning around giving him the stink eye. He realized what I was doing and left.

AGREED! Years ago on a trip to Holland, I was out shopping and a man approached me and said I was attractive and that he'd like to get to know me. I thanked him for his compliment, but wasn't interested, and said so. He continued to insist, and wouldn't be dissuaded with politeness, so I repeated my disinterest more firmly and bluntly, and walked away.
He then FOLLOWED me - not closely, but enough for me to know he was there. I wanted to go back to my hotel, which was within walking distance, but didn't want to lead him back to where I was staying, and I walked in circles for nearly an hour - sometimes I'd duck into a store, browse for a bit, hoping he'd go away, but when I came out he would still be there. He wasn't doing anything. But he wouldn't go away. Finally I went into a McDonald's, told the manager what was going on, and asked if they could call the police. I didn't know if what he was doing was a crime, but it was creepy and I was certainly afraid. The manager went out, threatened to have the man arrested, and gave me something hot to drink so I could wait around until I was sure he had left. It was the middle of the afternoon, broad daylight with lots of people around. I can't imagine if the same thing had happened at night with no one else around and nowhere really to go for help.

lauriej · Apr 23, 2012

annalia said:
Nice little dig at the family while giving his apology, but hang on a second. Didn't MOM acknowledge right after the bond hearing that he was aware that the family had indeed rejected their attempt at a meeting? I can't find the link to it.

I'm sure that MOM is every bit the great defense attorney as some say, but his style is becoming clearer, kind of passive/aggressive, using honey while sticking in the dagger.

JMHO

--i also find it really hard to believe that omara was unaware that the family had said they weren't interested in hearing from george---there were NUMEROUS articles about just that the day before the bond hearing-----none of omara's people had read any of them? uh huh.

--from the same video:

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2...ients-apology-to-trayvon-martins-parents?lite

--reporter--kerry sanders: "It's possible police documents from the earliest stages of this investigation could be made public later today, perhaps revealing more about what happened that night in late february."

Phoenixfla · Apr 23, 2012

Adrienne37 said:
Nor is there any evidence that indicates that Trayvon threw the first punch either.

~jmo~

Even if I stipulate that there was no evidence that TM threw the first punch either (which I dont necessarily agree with) how can a jury believe that beyond a reasonable doubt that GZ murdered TM?

KrazyKatLadi · Apr 23, 2012

So TM's father didn't find out about the shooting till the next day?

Quote:
I had gone out for dinner, dad Tracy Martin told People magazine. And when I got home, Trayvon wasnt there. I tried calling his cellphone several times, and it went straight to voice mail.
I figured that they had gone to the movies, he said of Trayvon and his nephew. So I laid down, thinking they would show up later.
But Trayvon never did. The next morning, Tracy started getting worried when the nephew said he hadnt seen Trayvon.

Sherbie · Apr 23, 2012

This case is so troubling. We may never know for sure what really happened in the lead-up to the shooting. Trayvon's walking through the complex certainly wasn't against the law. Zimmerman's following TM wasn't against the law. Disregarding a dispatcher's statement that "We don't need you to [follow TM]" wasn't illegal, either.

Based only on the little we've learned so far, it doesn't appear either of the two committed a crime prior to the physical altercation. So at what point did one of them first commit a criminal act and who committed it? Did Zimmerman chase Trayvon down and start a physical fight with him? Did Trayvon get angry that Zimmerman was following him around and confront him, possibly socking him in the nose and starting the actual physical altercation?

I am heartbroken for Trayvon and his family, but I have to reserve judgment for now about whether Zimmerman is guilty of second degree murder.

There's no doubt this wouldn't have happened if GZ had not been carrying and if he'd just gone to his car and waited for police, but neither of those acts was illegal. The state is going to have to meet the burden of proof for M2. Can they definitively show that GZ instigated the physical contact and acted with implied malice/depraved indifference or disregard to human life? It's quite a hurdle, IMO.

We may not know much more til trial. Despite the Sunshine Law, I'm afraid there might be successful motions for some of the discovery in this case to be heavily redacted or sealed. I really don't see how anyone can be certain enough right now to make a judgment one way or the other (I'm talking strictly the legal points for M2, not the moral issues - they don't always mesh).

suzihawk · Apr 23, 2012

m00c0w said:
And I'm just asking for a link to something that a previous poster asserted that I have not seen myself.

ETA: To me, the brother's presence in the home is extremely relevant because it might alter Martin's actions. If the brother was home, I could see him not wanting to go back, or possibly being locked out. If the brother was not home, Martin surely had a key or some other way to get into the house - I don't think he would have locked himself out. I'm not asking for anything regarding the brother other than evidence he was actually home at the time.

How do you know this?

m00c0w · Apr 23, 2012

suzihawk said:
How do you know this?

"or some other way to get into the house. I don't think he would have locked himself out."

KrazyKatLadi · Apr 23, 2012

Am I correct that TM was staying at his father's house?

m00c0w · Apr 23, 2012

PinkiGreen said:
Am I correct that TM was staying at his father's house?

The father's fiancée's house. That's what I thought from the initial reports, but it turns out the father lives in Miami and goes up to visit his SO.

Emeralgem · Apr 23, 2012

cityslick said:
I never said that either. GZ's asserts that TM came and ambushed him, which means obviously that TM would not have gone straight home if that was the truth. Why is it not fair to track TM's movements as well as GZ's? They were both part of the incident that night.

Personally, I don't believe any of us here can count on anything of what GZ has asserted as being the truth..JMHO

Phoenixfla · Apr 23, 2012

Sherbie said:
This case is so troubling. We may never know for sure what really happened in the lead-up to the shooting. Trayvon's walking through the complex certainly wasn't against the law. Zimmerman's following TM wasn't against the law. Disregarding a dispatcher's statement that "We don't need you to [follow TM]" wasn't illegal, either.

Based only on the little we've learned so far, it doesn't appear either of the two committed a crime prior to the physical altercation. So at what point did one of them first commit a criminal act and who committed it? Did Zimmerman chase Trayvon down and start a physical fight with him? Did Trayvon get angry that Zimmerman was following him around and confront him, possibly socking him in the nose and starting the actual physical altercation?

I am heartbroken for Trayvon and his family, but I have to reserve judgment for now about whether Zimmerman is guilty of second degree murder.

There's no doubt this wouldn't have happened if GZ had not been carrying and if he'd just gone to his car and waited for police, but neither of those acts was illegal. The state is going to have to meet the burden of proof for M2. Can they definitively show that GZ instigated the physical contact and acted with implied malice/depraved indifference or disregard to human life? It's quite a hurdle, IMO.

We may not know much more til trial. Despite the Sunshine Law, I'm afraid there might be successful motions for some of the discovery in this case to be heavily redacted or sealed. I really don't see how anyone can be certain enough right now to make a judgment one way or the other (I'm talking strictly the legal points for M2, not the moral issues - they don't always mesh).

Great post and ill just add that the media hearing to unseal the evidence is this Friday at 9 am. I think that based on the sunshine laws, any redactions would have to be for specific reasons.

Concerned Papa · Apr 23, 2012

m00c0w said:
To be blunt, you really don't know what he did for that amount of time. You can speculate all you want to, but nothing implies there was constant movement for that entire amount of time. At the very least, he could have been pacing or walking in circles as he was talking to the dispatcher. The timelines not fitting whatever direction you perceive a person to continuously move to (or away from) doesn't mean much without all of the facts. You're assuming he never stopped walking or continuously walked in one path or route. That's a very big assumption.

Imagine my surprise with reading about MY perception of movements and failure to consider "walking around in circles" after reading this several weeks ago:

I'm saying he probably parked where the blue rectangle is located. He then went along the magenta path while talking to the dispatcher, and realized he lost Martin when he came to the perpendicular pathway. Since he believes Martin is going towards the back entrance, it would make sense that he would continue alone the same magenta pathway so he will have roughly the viewpoint notated by the yellow triangle. He would be able to see if Martin was running towards the back entrance, or off to another house... If he ran to another house, Zimmerman would be able to tell police approximately where he went - this may be the confusion about Zimmerman saying he was trying to get an address.

It was somewhere towards the end of this magenta pathway that I believe he was told to stop following Martin, and he did. He turned around and headed back towards his vehicle. This is a very reasonable distance to cover in that short amount of time, and I feel the scenario fits in well with the timeline.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7730658&postcount=263

m00c0w · Apr 23, 2012

LambChop said:
TM was a couple of condos from being home. Why would it matter who was home? He was clearly headed in that direction and there is nothing back there that a 17 year old would be interested in. All the stores are out the main street. Just because GZ thought TM was up to no good does not mean he was. GZ didn't know where TM was going that was his excuse. We all know where TM was going so we can't use the same excuse. There is no evidence that TM was going anywhere but home. It's not helping GZ's case because he has already given his statement and whatever he said is just not going,to fly with the authorities apparently. jmo

Huh?

I've never suggested he wasn't going towards his house initially. I was saying that it may be possible Martin was 1) locked out or 2) decided he shouldn't go home (after Zimmerman started following) if the brother was home. If the brother was not home, neither of these may apply.

Zak · Apr 23, 2012

LiveLaughLuv said:
see you all later before I get timed out or banned...

this is really very frustrating to suggest the victim didn't try hard enough to get to his door...

shame on those who think this teen is the problem and not GZ, who isn't even close to fulfilling his dreams at 29 y/o....that tells alot about a guy who doens't have his career set, yet...:banghead:

BBM

Not sure why this is a problem to you. Some people take longer to decide on a career after having tried various jobs. My son just turned 28 and has gone to college off and on for years. He went full time for several years while it was on my dime, sat out for two years while he worked, changed majors and then part time the rest. He is close to a degree, but when you have to work your way through college its not an easy task. I, for one, give GZ credit for going back to school to not only change careers, but better himself.

17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #31

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