In the trunk 2.6 days Decomp Info #1

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Bev said:
Thanks, Dejavu, I appreciate that. From taking the report as a whole, it is very obvious that the body wasn't just placed in that trunk - it had to be contained in something and the obvious thing is a blanket or a sheet or even a beach towel. That body was in that trunk for a period of several days and then removed and the GCMS reports prove it. The LIBS test was the confirmation for me. There are constants that can be factored in the release of decompositional gases/chemicals. That's just a fact.

Minazoe, she could not have just dropped that baby off with her mother, her mother was working - if they did have a fight, I would bet it was about her Mom working 12 hour days and needing KC to get up in the morning and take care of the baby while she got ready for work. Little kids like that wake up early, they want breakfast and they want attention. When you get home from a long day like that you're tired, despite CA's portrait of the happy evening of getting a baby fed and bathed and in bed (and at that age, they usually fight going to bed too) it is often times really, really hard. I know why she wanted KC at home during the night - so she could get up with the baby and let CA get ready for work.
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Bev, just curious when do you think that Caylee died. What day, considering all that we know. You seem to be up to date on the events, if you don't mind. I thank you for your post, the forensics make sence when you say it.
 
Please help me understand this. This is the third thread I've read related in some fashion to the decomp and the forensic report; and I read the actual report as well. So, although I've been trying (and do understand some things), I just can't get my arms around the entire concept.

I keep thinking of decomposition as an ongoing process; from live tissue, etc, at final, final end stage turning into dust. That makes me think that if one says that results show 2.6 days of decomp that whatever that sample came from died 2.6 days before. Am I correct? If I am does that mean that the origin of these samples (air, gases, tissue, etc) died 2.6 days before they were collected, or 2.6 days before they were processed, or what?
If the samples were in the car as early as KC was complaining to Amy about the smell from the dead squirrels; then I know that was way more than 2.6 days before collection of those samples. . . They weren't collected until after the car was retrieved.
What prevents the decomposition from continuing on to nothing? I guess I understand that the starting event is the death; but what makes it stop at 2.6? Is it separation from the rest of the body? Or some other chemical event that my brain just can't seem to digest?

Please help!
 
Wudge said:
"Can" is not evidence. "Can" is worthless. Prosecutors need evidence that proves premeditation beyond a reasonable doubt.
Click to expand...

NG covered this on one of her shows....premeditation can happend at any moment...

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
State laws in the United States vary as to definitions of "premeditation." In some states, premeditation may be construed as taking place mere seconds before the murder.

Law: sufficient forethought to impute deliberation and intent to commit the act. kill cayleedone deliberately;

Law: The contemplation of a crime well enough in advance to show deliberate intent to commit the crime; forethought.

there could be a number of reasons why the rest of the *plan* to dispose of caylee took longer to do......maybe shock...at seeing her daughter dead....the weather....feeling like she is going to get caught disposeing of her....

From the facts so far searches for Chlorform, ZG, missing childrens web sites, and the fall out with her mom....I feel she premeditated wanting Caylee gone....
 
TakeNote said:
NG covered this on one of her shows....premeditation can happend at any moment...

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
State laws in the United States vary as to definitions of "premeditation." In some states, premeditation may be construed as taking place mere seconds before the murder.

Law: sufficient forethought to impute deliberation and intent to commit the act. kill cayleedone deliberately;

Law: The contemplation of a crime well enough in advance to show deliberate intent to commit the crime; forethought.

there could be a number of reasons why the rest of the *plan* to dispose of caylee took longer to do......maybe shock...at seeing her daughter dead....the weather....feeling like she is going to get caught disposeing of her....

From the facts so far searches for Chlorform, ZG, missing childrens web sites, and the fall out with her mom....I feel she premeditated wanting Caylee gone....
Click to expand...

I agree with that this was premeditated, but for anyone that doesn't keep in mind in Florida Murder 1/death penalty does not require proof of premediation. They only need an aggravating factor which can and does include the age of the victim and death resulting from aggravated child abuse.
 
I'm not sure that KC wanted to kill Caylee. She may have just wanted her to sleep through the night--if so she found a weird place to leave her. Why couldn't the grandparents take her for one night?

But, if it was an accident why did she ride around with the body for several days? And try to find good places to leave her?

KC is worse than Scott P. Can a sociopath be that callow?
 
Zelda said:
I'm not sure that KC wanted to kill Caylee. She may have just wanted her to sleep through the night--if so she found a weird place to leave her. Why couldn't the grandparents take her for one night?

But, if it was an accident why did she ride around with the body for several days? And try to find good places to leave her?

KC is worse than Scott P. Can a sociopath be that callow?
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If it was an accident why isn't she upset about it?
Why isn't she grieving?
Why is she partying?
How did she casually lie to every person that asked about her during that month? Never once shed a tear or have to catch her breath?

One of the guys interviewed by LE said she had never looked better in the years he had known her?!?!?!
We have had personal tragedy, known others that have, never heard anyone say "hey, you look better than I have ever seen you look" to a grieving family member. Most lose weight, can't sleep, can't function, look like hell.

She is the actual polar opposite of a glowing pregnant mom. She is so happy/relieved that her burden has been lifted it is physically visible.

Her reaction to Caylee being gone/dead/missing betray her intentions. She couldn't even be bothered to fake it.
 
TakeNote said:
NG covered this on one of her shows....premeditation can happend at any moment...

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
State laws in the United States vary as to definitions of "premeditation." In some states, premeditation may be construed as taking place mere seconds before the murder.

Law: sufficient forethought to impute deliberation and intent to commit the act. kill cayleedone deliberately;

Law: The contemplation of a crime well enough in advance to show deliberate intent to commit the crime; forethought.

there could be a number of reasons why the rest of the *plan* to dispose of caylee took longer to do......maybe shock...at seeing her daughter dead....the weather....feeling like she is going to get caught disposeing of her....

From the facts so far searches for Chlorform, ZG, missing childrens web sites, and the fall out with her mom....I feel she premeditated wanting Caylee gone....
Click to expand...

As regards premeditation in an instant, I posted the following in another thread.

The definition of "premeditation" is somewhat ambiguous and can easily be misleading. The legal definition of "premeditation" is with planning or deliberation. However, the amount of time needed for premeditation, regarding any act, depends on the person and the circumstances. After forming intent, the time must be long enough to act, and it must also allow for the person to have been fully conscious of the intent and to have considered the act.

As far as I know, you must have prior planning to have premeditation. Hence, in this case that lacks: a clear and unyielding motive, a place of death, a time of death, a cause of death, the mechanics of death, the circumstances surrounding the death, a confession and an eyewitness, then unless the words came from the defendant's mouth premeditation would appear not likely be proven to have existed for an instant or otherwise.

Additionally, the words in the legal definition are deliberation and planning. The definition for both of those words indicates that this is not an "instant" process. Although the definition states that it depends on the circumstances and the person and indicates that it could be "instantaneous", those two words indicate that it can not be so.

Still, the key thing is to prove it in court, and that means the prosecutors must prove deliberation and planning beyond a reasonable doubt.
 
Meagain said:
Can someone tell me why many here claim the trunk was cleaned? I'm not getting the reasons for that thinking from the report.
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I'm wondering the exact same thing. It seems to me that the trunk was normally kept very clean, there's nothing to indicated that any clean up, let alone a 'massive' clean up, took place.
 
Bev said:
Actually, I don't think the report is saying that the death was suffocation, the report is saying that the level of gases measured is consistent with the decomposition of a body that is in a fairly airtight container - in other words air did not promote as rapid decomposition as a body would that was just placed into the trunk without being contained in something.
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I believe that is what it implies.
 
Meagain said:
Can someone tell me why many here claim the trunk was cleaned? I'm not getting the reasons for that thinking from the report.
Click to expand...

Common sense would tell you that the trunk of a car is NOT that immaculate. I would guess in yours, mine (if I had one, I have an SUV) or anyone else there would be hairs in there if you ever opened it and put packages, groceries, etc. in it. There is no way a trunk in everyday circumstances could avoid having things from the owner of the car. Would it have my daughter's DNA and hair in it? Not unless she had a reason to be in the trunk, which no 2 year old would have.
 
Wudge said:
No murderer would "plan" to leave a murdered body in the trunk of their car for 2 1/2 days or more. Given this truth, this alleged forensic evidence is proof that no premeditated murder took place.

In other words, this alleged evidence supports the defense, not the State's murder one charge.
Click to expand...

Hi Wudge. My first exposure to your writings was in this weeks "Do you think LE has enough evidence to get Casey on 1st Degree Murder?" thread. I loved your input and learned much. One of the things that I thought I learned from you was that a person's actions after an alleged crime do not support guilt.

"During the passage of jury instructions, the Judge would instruct the jury that consciousness of guilt is not, by itself, sufficient to permit an inference that the defendant is guilty of the crime of murder.

In other words, while the behavior that allegedly represents consciousness of guilt might well look like a nice, big, soft, warm, lovely looking bun, if there is no beef to go along with it, there will be no conviction."

Following this same logic how could a person's lack of a plan after murder (lack of consciousness of guilt) be a support for the defense?

Shouldn't they both hold the same weight?
 
Originally Posted by Bev
Actually, I don't think the report is saying that the death was suffocation, the report is saying that the level of gases measured is consistent with the decomposition of a body that is in a fairly airtight container - in other words air did not promote as rapid decomposition as a body would that was just placed into the trunk without being contained in something.
Click to expand...
TURBOTHINK said:
I believe that is what it implies.
Click to expand...

Would that container include possibly a garbage bag? I was thinking today about the trunk stain and LE being able to tell which way Caylee was laying - even if she was in a plastic garbage bag, you know, they somehow manage to leak if there is fluids in them, at least mine do. And the fluids would flow to the shape of the bag and dry into the carpet. That would enclose the body, yet account for the carpet stain.
Does this make sense, or am I rambling again? :rolleyes:
 
Wudge said:
As regards premeditation in an instant, I posted the following in another thread.

The definition of "premeditation" is somewhat ambiguous and can easily be misleading. The legal definition of "premeditation" is with planning or deliberation. However, the amount of time needed for premeditation, regarding any act, depends on the person and the circumstances. After forming intent, the time must be long enough to act, and it must also allow for the person to have been fully conscious of the intent and to have considered the act.

As far as I know, you must have prior planning to have premeditation. Hence, in this case that lacks: a clear and unyielding motive, a place of death, a time of death, a cause of death, the mechanics of death, the circumstances surrounding the death, a confession and an eyewitness, then unless the words came from the defendant's mouth premeditation would appear not likely be proven to have existed for an instant or otherwise.

Additionally, the words in the legal definition are deliberation and planning. The definition for both of those words indicates that this is not an "instant" process. Although the definition states that it depends on the circumstances and the person and indicates that it could be "instantaneous", those two words indicate that it can not be so.

Still, the key thing is to prove it in court, and that means the prosecutors must prove deliberation and planning beyond a reasonable doubt.
Click to expand...

I was refering to your answer that premeditated murder can not take place in a few seconds....

but it can....you can plan to kill someone right before you do it.....mere seconds.....it doesnt mean you have to have a plan for what to do afterwards...and I still say that there is plenty of evidence of her pre-planing how to kill the baby.....and also the fact that she has shown no remorse for it and has lied to the police and those who wanted to help her...and her actions after her child went missing.....actions speak louder then words...
 
Wudge said:
No murderer would "plan" to leave a murdered body in the trunk of their car for 2 1/2 days or more. Given this truth, this alleged forensic evidence is proof that no premeditated murder took place.

In other words, this alleged evidence supports the defense, not the State's murder one charge.
Click to expand...

I don't think anyone can say with 100% certainty what all murderers would or wouldn't do. I think calling it a "truth" is a real stretch.
 
TURBOTHINK said:
Common sense would tell you that the trunk of a car is NOT that immaculate. I would guess in yours, mine (if I had one, I have an SUV) or anyone else there would be hairs in there if you ever opened it and put packages, groceries, etc. in it. There is no way a trunk in everyday circumstances could avoid having things from the owner of the car. Would it have my daughter's DNA and hair in it? Not unless she had a reason to be in the trunk, which no 2 year old would have.
Click to expand...

But you might put a blanket in there, or a car seat when she wasn't with you or any item she might have used. It could have transferred her hair from a "normal" place to the unexpected place of the trunk. In my opinion, it might be possible. But I don't think the kind of DNA that they found in KC's trunk was from anything as innocent as this!
 
TakeNote said:
I was refering to your answer that premeditated murder can not take place in a few seconds....

but it can....you can plan to kill someone right before you do it.....mere seconds.....it doesnt mean you have to have a plan for what to do afterwards...and I still say that there is plenty of evidence of her pre-planing how to kill the baby.....and also the fact that she has shown no remorse for it and has lied to the police and those who wanted to help her...and her actions after her child went missing.....actions speak louder then words...
Click to expand...

Black letter criminal Law states that premeditation can happen in the "twinkling of an eye". This can literally take one or two seconds to "plan" and then do the deed (i.e., find a gun in a drawer, form intent, *advertiser censored* the trigger, aim it and shoot).
 
Theonly1 said:
Black letter criminal Law states that premeditation can happen in the "twinkling of an eye". This can literally take one or two seconds to "plan" and then do the deed (i.e., find a gun in a drawer, form intent, *advertiser censored* the trigger, aim it and shoot).
Click to expand...

yes that is what I was saying :)
 
Wudge said:
No murderer would "plan" to leave a murdered body in the trunk of their car for 2 1/2 days or more. Given this truth, this alleged forensic evidence is proof that no premeditated murder took place.

In other words, this alleged evidence supports the defense, not the State's murder one charge.
Click to expand...

Interestingly enough, the one thing that premeditated murderers rarely plan for is how to dispose of the body. Yep. it's true. That's one of the reasons they get caught--body disposal is where they screw up because they didn't plan for it.
 
Wudge said:
No murderer would "plan" to leave a murdered body in the trunk of their car for 2 1/2 days or more. Given this truth, this alleged forensic evidence is proof that no premeditated murder took place.

In other words, this alleged evidence supports the defense, not the State's murder one charge.
Click to expand...

Wouldn't murder and illegal disposal of a corpse be two different crimes. To premeditate murder has nothing to do with what you do with the victim after the fact. If Casey's objective was to eliminate Caylee couldn't that overwhelming urge totally control her thoughts and actions? If her mental state is unstable at best maybe the only thing she was focused on was being free. It's as if she fell into a drunken euphoria picturing her life as unencumbered. As she in fact acted out after the loss of Caylee. This is something so beyond my expertise but it would be nice to to see a profiler do a write-up on this.
This is one way I try to form an understanding about something I have no understanding about.
 
Theonly1 said:
Black letter criminal Law states that premeditation can happen in the "twinkling of an eye". This can literally take one or two seconds to "plan" and then do the deed (i.e., find a gun in a drawer, form intent, *advertiser censored* the trigger, aim it and shoot).
Click to expand...

Courts do not deal in "can". Courts deal in evidence.
 
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