09-17-2011 Topaz Mountain Search Yields Charred Wood and Decomp

[Dr. Know?]

I think the person was qualified today but has no authority to state or have an opinion on what they found....

Hope testing is rushed but won't hold my breath. They know more than us.

 

[hollyblue]

Darn! I was hoping for more than charred wood! :/

I think they said "apparent" because that's what they assume it to be and will confirm by further testing?

I'm thinking he either tried to burn the body like was mentioned above or that he burned her clothing which would have decomp on them. Clothes would burn up completely, no?

I feel pretty strongly this has to do with this case. I can't think for any other reason why campfire ashes would be buried in a 2.5ft hole other than something nefarious. There is something in those ashes that wasn't wanted found. It's too coincidental that it's that close to where he was.

I'm curious about camping in these areas. Can you just drive your car off the road and camp where ever you'd like? No specific camping zones?

One more thing...can someone tell me what the deal was with the rental car?? He left to go camping with the boys in the van? Then he got a rental car when? TIA.

He rented the car two days later for a day. Supposed went to Wally's or somewhere to purchase a new cell phone and a new bedspread since LE took his in the search. He put a couple of hundred miles on the rental car also. Rumors of 200-700 miles..

 

[BeanE]

I can't think for any other reason why campfire ashes would be buried in a 2.5ft hole other than something nefarious.

The depth of the hole bothers me for a camping scenario. I'm not a camper. Haven't camped since I was young. I came to prefer luxury hotels with spas etc lol.

So... the depth of the hole - that seems to be far deeper than campers would ordinarily dig for firepits, to bury trash, etc.

Do any of y'all camp? What's the average depth you'd typically dig to for a firepit or to bury trash or whatever when you're camping?

 

[BeanE]

Okay, I'm googling cadaver dogs, and all the sites I'm looking at are saying the decomp they hit on includes blood, feces, urine, semen.

I'm also seeing they're starting to call them "decomposition dogs" rather than cadaver or HRD dogs.

ETA: Okay, just found a HRD dog certification test, and it says the dog should *not* alert to urine.

Section 1: TYPE OF HUMAN REMAINS
K-9’s must exhibit the ability to distinguish the presence of human remains or human decomp
material in a field setting. Other settings are optional to the certifying officials relative to actual
real world situations. Human remains may consist of human blood, human tissue, human bone,
adipocere, liposuction fluid, cremains, teeth, hair (used in combination of other material) or other
remains that are human in origination and nature. URINE will not be considered as human
remains. Real human remains will be used for testing, no pseudo materials allowed during
testing!! Minimum size of hide will be 4 ounces. Hides will be placed a minimum of 30 minutes
prior to testing. Hides may or may not be concealed from the canine and it is the handler’s
responsibility to protect the canine from coming into contact with the remains.



http://www.taskcanine.com/articles/Human_Remains_Detection_Certifi.pdf

 

[stg]

Darn! I was hoping for more than charred wood! :/

I think they said "apparent" because that's what they assume it to be and will confirm by further testing?

I'm thinking he either tried to burn the body like was mentioned above or that he burned her clothing which would have decomp on them. Clothes would burn up completely, no?

I feel pretty strongly this has to do with this case. I can't think for any other reason why campfire ashes would be buried in a 2.5ft hole other than something nefarious. There is something in those ashes that wasn't wanted found. TIA.

It's pretty clear the police know a lot more than they are letting on and are making JP sweat. To find that small spot the dogs hit on in such a vast wilderness had to be based on strong evidence. I think the searches in Nevada were just a game to give Josh false relief they were way off, see how he would react, and possibly make him slip up by saying or doing something dumb. I think they are very methodically building a case against him.

Having Mr. Cox fly out is just part of their plan. Some are attacking the police, but I have a feeling they are doing masterful detective work that will make sense to all later.

 

[HotLavaJavas]

The depth of the hole bothers me for a camping scenario. I'm not a camper. Haven't camped since I was young. I came to prefer luxury hotels with spas etc lol.

So... the depth of the hole - that seems to be far deeper than campers would ordinarily dig for firepits, to bury trash, etc.

Do any of y'all camp? What's the average depth you'd typically dig to for a firepit or to bury trash or whatever when you're camping?

Fire pits...I've never dug 2.5 feet for one, maybe a foot..depends on the purpose.

Trash - never buried it. Always packed it out.

But, being someone who grew up in UT..I would never go camping in December, even in my car. One, uncomfortable and two, FREEZING. I've camped in August and woken because I was so cold in the night...and I was in sleeping bags with blankets and warm clothes.

I'm from Northern Utah, btw.

 

[hollyblue]

Whoa, that picture on that page is interesting. Thanks.

Well, I'm sure they'll find her dna on those pieces...if tested. Geez.....:banghead:

 

[bessie]

Okay, I'm googling cadaver dogs, and all the sites I'm looking at are saying the decomp they hit on includes blood, feces, urine, semen.

I'm also seeing they're starting to call them "decomposition dogs" rather than cadaver or HRD dogs.

ETA: Okay, just found a HRD dog certification test, and it says the dog should *not* alert to urine.

Section 1: TYPE OF HUMAN REMAINS
K-9’s must exhibit the ability to distinguish the presence of human remains or human decomp
material in a field setting. Other settings are optional to the certifying officials relative to actual
real world situations. Human remains may consist of human blood, human tissue, human bone,
adipocere, liposuction fluid, cremains, teeth, hair (used in combination of other material) or other
remains that are human in origination and nature. URINE will not be considered as human
remains. Real human remains will be used for testing, no pseudo materials allowed during
testing!! Minimum size of hide will be 4 ounces. Hides will be placed a minimum of 30 minutes
prior to testing. Hides may or may not be concealed from the canine and it is the handler’s
responsibility to protect the canine from coming into contact with the remains.



http://www.taskcanine.com/articles/Human_Remains_Detection_Certifi.pdf

Here are a couple of other references that might help you out. Dogs trained exclusively to detect human decomposition will not alert on feces or urine.

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Forensic Search Dog (The primary focus of this paper)
A canine that has been specifically trained to indicate a scent source as being from decomposed human tissue. Such animals are also trained to exclude (deconditioned to) the scent of human urine, feces, and semen and will not alert on residual scent from a live human; and have never been trained to locate any scent other than that of decomposed human tissue.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
http://www.csst.org/forensic_evidence_canines.html

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...sg=AFQjCNGREfD643EoosrGR78Se4_WXCD3lQ&cad=rja
[/FONT]

 

[hollyblue]

Okay, I'm googling cadaver dogs, and all the sites I'm looking at are saying the decomp they hit on includes blood, feces, urine, semen.

I'm also seeing they're starting to call them "decomposition dogs" rather than cadaver or HRD dogs.

ETA: Okay, just found a HRD dog certification test, and it says the dog should *not* alert to urine.

Section 1: TYPE OF HUMAN REMAINS
K-9’s must exhibit the ability to distinguish the presence of human remains or human decomp
material in a field setting. Other settings are optional to the certifying officials relative to actual
real world situations. Human remains may consist of human blood, human tissue, human bone,
adipocere, liposuction fluid, cremains, teeth, hair (used in combination of other material) or other
remains that are human in origination and nature. URINE will not be considered as human
remains. Real human remains will be used for testing, no pseudo materials allowed during
testing!! Minimum size of hide will be 4 ounces. Hides will be placed a minimum of 30 minutes
prior to testing. Hides may or may not be concealed from the canine and it is the handler’s
responsibility to protect the canine from coming into contact with the remains.



http://www.taskcanine.com/articles/Human_Remains_Detection_Certifi.pdf

This reminded me of this case of the fraudulent dog handler. Remember this? ....and her name is the same as SP's x gf. LOL!

http://truthinjustice.org/sandra-anderson.htm

 

[Geralyn]

Total rookie question, I guess...but why aren't those pieces being handled by gloved hands instead of bare? Or doesn't that matter?

 

[Lera213]

wow, I'm not hopeful now, was sitting here trying to be but I just don't have it in me. I'm thinking LE has nothing now. Unless a confession this case will not be solved. MOO

Please prove me wrong LE!

 

[HatesSociopaths]

I'm feeling pretty confident about my theory that JP moved the body after the search of his WA home on Aug 27, 2011. The media had tried to talk to JP a few days after he left for this camping trip and were still not able to reach him at his home.

Here is a map from his home to Topaz Mntn:

It takes 17 hours to make that drive.

Here is a closer in look at the map near Topaz Mntn:

Those of you very familiar with this case may see on the map places that JP has gone rock hunting before - could you let me know? TIA. I speculate that he may have again chosen an area familiar to him to re-bury the body. He would have preferred to have a spot to go to that is on the way to Topaz, so he could dig up a grave first without having a body with him at the time. Then after digging up the body, drive back to that spot and quickly bury the remains.

Also, they can check JP's cell phone records and establish cell tower pings on the nights he went "camping" in late August.

His kids were with him, so could have valuable information as well.

MOO.

 

[Dr. Know?]

Sorry, OT, You know, the children could hold valuable information and that's my main concern. The trauma they may have later in life. My heart goes out to these kids who have any recolection of the last time they've seen their parents and could provide information to their loved ones death. I could include many but JR/BB Cummings is always in my heart as well as Susan's boys. Their ages were so young to lose their mom, sister or parent. Bless their hearts.

 

[laytonian]

It was unlikely the apparent wood gave the cadaver dogs a "false positive," Merritt stated. The cadaver dogs are trained to detect human decomposition as opposed to flakes of dead skin. He also noted it was interesting that the charred pieces were found buried about 2 ½ feet in the ground.



ummmm... what's "apparent" wood?

Bones?

A 2-1/2 feet deep hole, once you put a wrapped body in there, is only covered by 18" of dirt.

I'm wondering if the body was set afire in the pit, and then someone came back to find it only partially destroyed -- so the body was burned.

As far as moving the body to Puyallup...the rental car would have had many more miles put on it, to meet someone halfway. I think Susan's out there near Topaz.

 

[hollyblue]

I'm feeling pretty confident about my theory that JP moved the body after the search of his WA home on Aug 27, 2011. The media had tried to talk to JP a few days after he left for this camping trip and were still not able to reach him at his home.

It takes 17 hours to make that drive.

Here is a closer in look at the map near Topaz Mntn:

Those of you very familiar with this case may see on the map places that JP has gone rock hunting before - could you let me know? TIA. I speculate that he may have again chosen an area familiar to him to re-bury the body. He would have preferred to have a spot to go to that is on the way to Topaz, so he could dig up a grave first without having a body with him at the time. Then after digging up the body, drive back to that spot and quickly bury the remains.

Also, they can check JP's cell phone records and establish cell tower pings on the nights he went "camping" in late August.

His kids were with him, so could have valuable information as well.

MOO.

Snipped for space.

You know, we have never been given any info on any of JP's cell phone calls, texts, etc..except for the calls to him from friends of SP the day she went missing. Two...iirc. Maybe he removed the battery?

 

[laytonian]

I'm feeling pretty confident about my theory that JP moved the body after the search of his WA home on Aug 27, 2011. The media had tried to talk to JP a few days after he left for this camping trip and were still not able to reach him at his home.

Here is a map from his home to Topaz Mntn:

[URL="http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/1207/mapwatopaz.jpg"[/URL]

It takes 17 hours to make that drive.MOO.

Route that through Ely, Nevada - and take another look.

Even if Josh met someone halfway, he'd still have had to be gone many more hours in that rental car, than he was .... and the total miles would have been more than "several hundred".

Ely and Topaz are linked, and may be dual crime scenes. I'm just not seeing someone taking a decomposing body along freeways. Plus, the rental car would have had tons of forensics in it.

 

[harleysnana]

"Within about 20 minutes of a person being dead they start to give off that scent of death"

"Those piece of wood were used to destroy something... something that has
to do with human decomposition"



http://connect2utah.com/story/?nxd_id=164057&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=New+Twitter

IMO it sounds like they believe that someone burned a body... or evidence there.

 

[hollyblue]

Route that through Ely, Nevada - and take another look.

Even if Josh met someone halfway, he'd still have had to be gone many more hours in that rental car, than he was .... and the total miles would have been more than "several hundred".

Ely and Topaz are linked, and may be dual crime scenes. I'm just not seeing someone taking a decomposing body along freeways. Plus, the rental car would have had tons of forensics in it.

Are you saying JP rented a another car on his August camping trip? The rental car of Dec '09 was never searched by LE, I don't believe. I do know that it had been rented again and cleaned by the time LE discovered he had rented it.

 

[HatesSociopaths]

The charred wood is a red herring IMO. They knew no body was in that grave on Wednesday at 1 pm. This is just the best explanation they could come up with on why they didn't bother to tell us until now. MOO.

Their message to JP is clear, they even brought Mr Cox to the site to emphasise it. IMO, the message is "We know you originally buried her here you s.o.b. and we know you moved the body. We are hot on your trail and it is just a matter of time before your day of reckoning arrives."

MOO.

 

[Dr. Know?]

I don't think they can say that stuff on camera, in court, or anywhere else without reprecussion.

I think what he said was until the charred wood is analized, they believe the forensic expert, degree in Anthropolgy, that the bones are charred wood with decomposition on them that the dogs hit on. That's how I took the news. That would be some high heat to make bones look like that pic I saw. High heat.

Hopefully it will be clarified tomorrow more. They are doing an amazing job with a gag order in place. Does it still exist?