16 Different Versions of Darlie's story

Mary456 said:
First, I have to apologize to Jeana. I didn't realize this thread was a "sticky" and not open to discussion. I saw G.I.'s post and got carried away...sorry.

But I do think "hearsay" is a subject we all need to understand if we're going to discuss trials and judicial law. In the early days of the Darlie debate (and even today), people have become incensed about hearsay, because they think it's all gossip...which it is not.

"Hearsay" is admitted based on a judge's ruling. Some hearsay is valid, some is not, and it's up to the judge - taking into consideration both sides' opinions - to decide that.

I'm so glad I'm not a judge :)


Its okay to comment on this thread Mary!! :blowkiss:
 
Jeana (DP) said:
Its okay to comment on this thread Mary!! :blowkiss:

Same to you, Jeana. We disagree on a lot of things, but I still count you as one of my best friends.

Hey, we're only the ones left who believe that Darlie acted alone in the killing of her sons. We gotta stick together on that, because what makes the most sense is usually true :)
 
Mary456 said:
Same to you, Jeana. We disagree on a lot of things, but I still count you as one of my best friends.

Hey, we're only the ones left who believe that Darlie acted alone in the killing of her sons. We gotta stick together on that, because what makes the most sense is usually true :)


We can't help being smart! It just comes natural to us.
 
G.I.RattlesnakeJane said:
I still think 2 intruders were present. The wounds on the boys are also indicitive of two people. The oldest boy had deeper wounds that show no hesitation and are precisely placed. The youngest had several wounds that glanced off bone and the penitration was shallower. Two different strengths and two different knowledges of anatomy.
I really don't understand this statement at all. Firstly I see that you are an obtrician, so I am assuming that you have a decent working knowledge of anatomy. What I am not sure of however, is how familiar you are with the case and the theories.
Now, having said that, I can't fathom why you would think that one "intruder" had a better knowledge of anatomy than another. One boy was asleep and never moved from the place of his attack, and I believe the other woke up and was obviously found away from his attack origination. Wouldn't you as an obviously bright person assume that other factors would play into this such as tension, fatigure, stress, frenzy on the part of the attacker, especially because the second child has tried to escape during his attack?
Any why would you assume that anyone conducting such a savage attack would be taking the time to look at placement of the wounds based on medical knowledge. It simply doesn't happen that way.
I'm not trying to be a smart a$$. I'm really wondering where you came up with this.
 
dasgal said:
I really don't understand this statement at all. Firstly I see that you are an obtrician, so I am assuming that you have a decent working knowledge of anatomy. What I am not sure of however, is how familiar you are with the case and the theories.
Now, having said that, I can't fathom why you would think that one "intruder" had a better knowledge of anatomy than another. One boy was asleep and never moved from the place of his attack, and I believe the other woke up and was obviously found away from his attack origination. Wouldn't you as an obviously bright person assume that other factors would play into this such as tension, fatigure, stress, frenzy on the part of the attacker, especially because the second child has tried to escape during his attack?
Any why would you assume that anyone conducting such a savage attack would be taking the time to look at placement of the wounds based on medical knowledge. It simply doesn't happen that way.
I'm not trying to be a smart a$$. I'm really wondering where you came up with this.
I get this from a couple of places reading other true crime books and also the testimony of Frosch.
Tate-LaBianca murders in California. Knives used were mutiple, obvious "style" differences as evidenced by the depths of the wounds. When the pieces all came together with the arrests and confessions of the "Manson Family" is when the police realized they had more than 1 killer in those houses. Much was learned forensically speaking from those two murder cases.

Hunting and fishing, not optometry, is what confirms my anatomy knowledge as we only treat your eyes in optometry.

When it comes to dressing out an animal, having knowledge of anatomy helps. Someone could have had a basic idea that is all that is needed to know the chest is easier to penetrate than the back. An animal is never cut down the back to harvest the meat. A hunter knows this, you don't need a degree to learn it either.

Frosch-He testifies that a serrated edge is found on the edged of the knife wounds on Devon. This could be a burr, or nick in the blade not a totally serrated knife.

The wounds on Darlie and Damon can be traced to the same knife. No their wounds did not penetrate as far but the vertical slicing of the neck of Darlie's wound should show where the nick or burr in the blade is if it is fact the same knife used.
Frosch testified that he could not identify the weapon found as the one used on both boys and Darlie. His testimony could only say that the knives were of similar classification. If it was the same knife he would have stated it as "proof positive".
No blood was found on the knife, that belonged to Devon. I know the expert says he only tested 4 areas.
I'm sure one of the areas would be the blade shaft where it joins the handle. This is a good place for blood to "hide" as it would resist cleaning efforts better. In fact if the knife was taken apart you might still find blood at the blade and handle joining point. How did Darlie eliminate his blood from the knife. How did she get rid of the burrs and/or nicks in the knife edge.

The depth of wounds is also what makes me conclude we have two perps not one. The sleeping child, Devon, didn't stay asleep as he has a defensive wound on his buttocks, surmised that he kicked at the killer in defense. He struggled too and was a larger child. Damon was stabbed in the back and you have shoulder blades, spine, larger amounts of rib cartilage etc in the back and it is much more difficult to stab someone in the back than chest.

The number of wounds inflicted upon the 2nd child Damon are more numerous and show a different " style" shallower, hitting bone, all in the back. He also seems to move around the crime scene going towards the couch then away towards the direction of the front door. Less control of him, less force used to subdue him. His wounds were less severe than his brothers, less strength used on him than Devon. If the killer(s) were the parents couldn't it be surmised that Devon was killed by Darin and Damon by Darlie. Two people two different hand strengths 2 knives.
 
I just wanted to let you know that novels aren't true. They are fiction
So true crime books cannot be novels.
 
G.I.RattlesnakeJane said:
I get this from a couple of places reading other true crime books and also the testimony of Frosch.
Tate-LaBianca murders in California. Knives used were mutiple, obvious "style" differences as evidenced by the depths of the wounds. When the pieces all came together with the arrests and confessions of the "Manson Family" is when the police realized they had more than 1 killer in those houses. Much was learned forensically speaking from those two murder cases.

Hunting and fishing, not optometry, is what confirms my anatomy knowledge as we only treat your eyes in optometry.

When it comes to dressing out an animal, having knowledge of anatomy helps. Someone could have had a basic idea that is all that is needed to know the chest is easier to penetrate than the back. An animal is never cut down the back to harvest the meat. A hunter knows this, you don't need a degree to learn it either.

Frosch-He testifies that a serrated edge is found on the edged of the knife wounds on Devon. This could be a burr, or nick in the blade not a totally serrated knife.

The wounds on Darlie and Damon can be traced to the same knife. No their wounds did not penetrate as far but the vertical slicing of the neck of Darlie's wound should show where the nick or burr in the blade is if it is fact the same knife used.
Frosch testified that he could not identify the weapon found as the one used on both boys and Darlie. His testimony could only say that the knives were of similar classification. If it was the same knife he would have stated it as "proof positive".
No blood was found on the knife, that belonged to Devon. I know the expert says he only tested 4 areas.
I'm sure one of the areas would be the blade shaft where it joins the handle. This is a good place for blood to "hide" as it would resist cleaning efforts better. In fact if the knife was taken apart you might still find blood at the blade and handle joining point. How did Darlie eliminate his blood from the knife. How did she get rid of the burrs and/or nicks in the knife edge.

The depth of wounds is also what makes me conclude we have two perps not one. The sleeping child, Devon, didn't stay asleep as he has a defensive wound on his buttocks, surmised that he kicked at the killer in defense. He struggled too and was a larger child. Damon was stabbed in the back and you have shoulder blades, spine, larger amounts of rib cartilage etc in the back and it is much more difficult to stab someone in the back than chest.

The number of wounds inflicted upon the 2nd child Damon are more numerous and show a different " style" shallower, hitting bone, all in the back. He also seems to move around the crime scene going towards the couch then away towards the direction of the front door. Less control of him, less force used to subdue him. His wounds were less severe than his brothers, less strength used on him than Devon. If the killer(s) were the parents couldn't it be surmised that Devon was killed by Darin and Damon by Darlie. Two people two different hand strengths 2 knives.
The Routier murders are in no way comparable to the Tate/La Bianca murders. The Mason killers took their own weapons. They killed everybody on the scene, including a young man visiting the caretaker, who lived in a small house in back of the large house. The caretaker was the only one spared because they did not know he was there. Pat Krenwinkle was on her way down the sidewalk towards his house when someone told her to come back because they didn't have any more time. They did all kinds of crazy things, tied a rope around Sharon and Jay and hung it from the rafters, then shot Jay. stabbed Sharon, then chased Abby and Fortowski out the door, Abby the back and Fortowski the front. Oh yeah, and wrote stupid stuff on the door. They took the weapons with them when they left. It's obvious one person could not control all of those people. The killers split up, they did not stay together in one room. LE knew right away at the Tate muder that they had mulitple killers. You've got victims strewn from end of the estate to the other. There were many weapons used including a gun and rope. They weren't sure about the LaBiancas, but they were sure about the Tate murders. The only way these cases are connected is that people were murdered.
Damon and Devon were in different positions. Damon was crawling away. You have no way of knowing how his wounds would have been if he not crawled.
 
I reread my post and I never used the word novel. I said books.
Ann Rule is one of my favorites, John Douglas, and other authors have written books about crimes and the trials of the accused. Most of the crimes I have read about happened in California. Alot in Texas too.

My favorite NOVELS when I was younger- pre-teen, Nancy Drew mysteries. Everything was neatly tied up by Nancy and her best friend and no one ever got seriously hurt. LOL LOL LOL That is fiction. Police need bullet proof vests and BFG weapons.
 
The number of wounds inflicted upon the 2nd child Damon are more numerous and show a different " style" shallower, hitting bone, all in the back. He also seems to move around the crime scene going towards the couch then away towards the direction of the front door. Less control of him, less force used to subdue him. His wounds were less severe than his brothers, less strength used on him than Devon. If the killer(s) were the parents couldn't it be surmised that Devon was killed by Darin and Damon by Darlie. Two people two different hand strengths 2 knives.

That's why Damon was attacked twice, imo. The killer (Darlie) didn't know he was still alive until he started to crawl away, hence the second attack with more force. That's why the depth of his injuries varies.

I agree with you about the blade handle and shaft. If they remove it, I'll bet you some of Devon's blood is there.

If you believe the two intruder, two knife theory, which intruder was bleeding from the forearm? And why did he lay that bloody knife down on the carpet in the murder room? Why didn't Darlie pick it up then and use it on them? Why would one intruder take his knife and the other leave one knife there, yet they take a sock! Doesn't quite make sense to me.
 
I think the sock could be an uninvited cling-on caused by static cling as the person passed thru the laundry room. A basket of clothes including socks were right by the doorway. The blood on it is a transfer stain.

The knife was from the house why take it, taking the knife brought with them would mean less chance of tracing that weapon back to them.

No blood from a 3rd party was ever found so why you think the person was bleeding from the arm.
Damon killed first, Damon stabbed second, Darlie third and when Damon started moving around the killer had to go back after him this could also explain why Darlie was slashed and not stabbed more. The killer was interrupted by Damon not being dead. In a hurry the killer slices at her throat, goes after Damon but has to put the knife down in order to catch him. Stabs Damon some more and is standing there at the end of the couch when Darlie sees him. He might have decided that he is better off fleeing, than finishing the job.
No matter who did the killing no one wanted to be caught.

This would also explain wht he left Darlie's jewelry on the counter, time to leave, to prevent being caught. There might have been enough noise downstairs to make the killer believe that anyone else in the house could have heard it too. The glass top table was overturned.
He doesn't know that Darin can't hear him. It is more important to flee the scene and get away than to spend anymore time in the house.
 
G.I.RattlesnakeJane said:
I reread my post and I never used the word novel. I said books.
Ann Rule is one of my favorites, John Douglas, and other authors have written books about crimes and the trials of the accused. Most of the crimes I have read about happened in California. Alot in Texas too.

My favorite NOVELS when I was younger- pre-teen, Nancy Drew mysteries. Everything was neatly tied up by Nancy and her best friend and no one ever got seriously hurt. LOL LOL LOL That is fiction. Police need bullet proof vests and BFG weapons.
G.I.RattlesnakeJane
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Reading True Crime novels

You used "novel" in your title
 
I appreciate your detailed response, but I still say that fatigue would effect strength. There is no evidence at all of two knives being used, with the exclusion of ForDarlie lore, so I can't take that into account either.

I do however thank you for responding with your thoughts. I can see it's not a knee jerk statement, and that means a bunch.

If you have time, I'd like you to go into more detail as to why you are convinced that two knives were used.
 
This would also explain wht he left Darlie's jewelry on the counter, time to leave,-G.I.

See this is a big problem for me, as well as most people. Burglars don't normally kill people, and when they do, it's because they have been cornered by someone who is threatening to them.
I honestly can't think of one real burglar (remember not robber but burglar) who has done sleeping homeowners in.
 
cami said:
That's why Damon was attacked twice, imo. The killer (Darlie) didn't know he was still alive until he started to crawl away, hence the second attack with more force. That's why the depth of his injuries varies.
Yep, yep:clap:
I agree with you about the blade handle and shaft. If they remove it, I'll bet you some of Devon's blood is there
I passed that theory along to her. I think it was JonGalt's. Anyway, it was somebody else's and I shared it with Jane. An interesting thing to know, but doesn't affect the outcome. Nothing quiets the Darlie supporters.
If you believe the two intruder, two knife theory, which intruder was bleeding from the forearm? And why did he lay that bloody knife down on the carpet in the murder room? Why didn't Darlie pick it up then and use it on them? Why would one intruder take his knife and the other leave one knife there, yet they take a sock! Doesn't quite make sense to me
I think we'd better stick to Darlie's lame story. Even it is better than the the 2-knife, 2-intruder theory.
 
dasgal said:
This would also explain wht he left Darlie's jewelry on the counter, time to leave,-G.I.

See this is a big problem for me, as well as most people. Burglars don't normally kill people, and when they do, it's because they have been cornered by someone who is threatening to them.
I honestly can't think of one real burglar (remember not robber but burglar) who has done sleeping homeowners in.
In MTJD, Chris says the kitchen area is too dark for an intruder to see the jewelry on the counter(the area closest to the TV). Then later, he says the intruder had plenty of light to find the butcher block. This is the type of logic we're dealing with here. :waitasec:
 
You're right, 2 knives were used that night. One, the bread knife that cut the screen, and the other, the butcher knife to attack the victims.
 
dasgal said:
I appreciate your detailed response, but I still say that fatigue would effect strength. There is no evidence at all of two knives being used, with the exclusion of ForDarlie lore, so I can't take that into account either.

I do however thank you for responding with your thoughts. I can see it's not a knee jerk statement, and that means a bunch.

If you have time, I'd like you to go into more detail as to why you are convinced that two knives were used.
I think his name is Poole I have incorrectly identified him as Frosch in previous posts sorry.:bang:

He testified right before Bevel volume 39.
I Do trust him since he got the best training in the army. I am G.I. respectfully prejudiced.
He states he found tool marks on one of Damon's ribs and that is why he can't CONCLUSIVELY say the same knife was used. Tool marks on the knife blade that matched those of Devon's wounds couldn't be found on the same knife as the one found in the home. Of the two wounds Devon received, one was able to show these marks. The other wound was not able to detect it and was not in good quality for testing. I don't want to go into how they harvested these wounds as it is rather gory. From best I can derive from the testimony the other wound either didn't hit the ribs in the right place or was ruined in the harvesting and preparation process. I can understand why the marks wouldn't match up with his brothers as Damon's wounds didn't penetrate as much as his did. Hence the depth prevented the tool marks from being made, one problem they do have the knife and no such burrs or imperfections are on this blade. I believe Poole. To me this screams of two knives. How could the tool marks be there on his rib and not on the blade?
 
G.I.RattlesnakeJane said:
The wounds on Darlie and Damon can be traced to the same knife. No their wounds did not penetrate as far but the vertical slicing of the neck of Darlie's wound should show where the nick or burr in the blade is if it is fact the same knife used.
Frosch testified that he could not identify the weapon found as the one used on both boys and Darlie. His testimony could only say that the knives were of similar classification. If it was the same knife he would have stated it as "proof positive".
No blood was found on the knife, that belonged to Devon. I know the expert says he only tested 4 areas.
I'm sure one of the areas would be the blade shaft where it joins the handle. This is a good place for blood to "hide" as it would resist cleaning efforts better. In fact if the knife was taken apart you might still find blood at the blade and handle joining point. How did Darlie eliminate his blood from the knife. How did she get rid of the burrs and/or nicks in the knife edge.
That's not true. The M.E. said she could not say that the butcher knife cut Darlie, Damon or Devon. Yes, Darlie and Damon's blood is on it. It's very rare to hear "proof positive" from a witness. Some of Devon's blood was found on the backsplash in the kitchen as well as in the P-trap. An intruder is not going to rinse off a knife. Darlie rinsed off the knife then cut herself, then had to stab Damon again, bingo.
Devon's blood not being on the knife is just a smokescreen. I'm sorry I'm not familiar with the burrs or nicks on the knife blade.
 
G.I.RattlesnakeJane said:
I think the sock could be an uninvited cling-on caused by static cling as the person passed thru the laundry room. A basket of clothes including socks were right by the doorway. The blood on it is a transfer stain.

.....
:laugh: hahahahahahahahahahhaahhah! This is the best explanation for the sock I have heard yet!!! Static cling, eh??? What did it cling to? Sorry but I just had to ask! :laugh: :laugh:
 

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