17-yo Teen Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #8

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I would think that the kid with the dorky grin, clearly happy and having fun at his computer would have been used if they weren't trying to paint a certain picture with pictures.

Why would a mother who just lost her child go to his computer and pick a picture of their child "goofing" off. Good lord she had to go through her album to give them a picture of TM. What could have been harder for her to do? Would she pick a favorite she had of him? I would. I don't think this poor woman sat down and thought about "let's keep up appearances to deceive people", I think she picked out pictures of happy times when the picture was taken and not concerned about the timeframe in which it was taken. Jump all over me if you want but sometimes we have to think like a victim when we look at things. I speculate pretty much all the time here, too, but I have to think about what would I do if I were in their place and just give them the benefit of the doubt unless something really shows them in a different light. I haven't seen that yet. I see grieving parents that lost their son.

Even GZ needs some consideration. I do not think he is a racist. I believe, by his behavior, he has control issues that extend further than his home. For some reason he feels obligated to control his community which put him on a very dangerous path that night. One, he knew better but because control is a major issue for him he could not stop himself from pursuing with deadly results. jmo
 
To the best of my knowlege, it has not be proven that Zimmerman what you claim he did.


If Zimmerman had murdered a white boy, he'd be under the jail right now. People can preach to the choir all day long about how this isn't a racial issue but sadly it is because Zimmerman made it a racial issue when he described Trayvon as a "*advertiser censored***** coon." If you want to blame someone for turning it into a racial issue, the blame clearly lies with Zimmerman.


~jmo~
 
It made me wonder if for some reason he went over to the parallel street, to maybe see if he saw him dart across to the back gate, or even check the address of that house for some bizarre reason (I'm not saying it makes sense). That would be the most logical conclusion, I feel.

I can see him, wanting to sound cool to the cops, wanting to be able to say something like, "Yeah, he disappeared between *advertiser censored* Twin Trees and *advertiser censored* Retreat Cir". I dunno. That's just pure conjecture, but I believe he walked over to the other street for a second for some reason or another, and on his way back to his vehicle was when the confrontation occurred.

That could very well be. Maybe TM was hiding on a porch and thought he had lost GZ and it was safe to continue on his way home when GZ found him? It is possible but that should be reflected in GZ's statement. jmo
 
Thank you! It would be nice if Spike Lee took this advice, too. What he has done is absolutely reprehensible!

I agree 1000%. But this isnt about mr. lee either. Its another situation that gets in the way of justice for all. We may be annoyed that its isnt going as fast as we would like, but its nothing like what the family of tm is going through and the family of gz. Let us not forget that gz has a family as well that is being affected by his actions that night. This is all a tragedy and why i liked coming to this forum. I do have my own opinion as to what happened, but wont rush to judgement until all questions can be answered as well as possible at this point. We need to be patient and wait for the new investigations results to come out. People have to prepare themselves for the fact that the prosecutor may not be able to charge gz, then what?? Im not saying thats what i believe, but after the casey anthony debacle, i believe anything is possible.<Mod Snip>. thats mo
 
I agree with the gist of your post here, songline.

I didn't think it was relevant or helpful to bring up GZ's credit problems. Not at all. But, I do think his arrest and the domestic violence report are relevant because he's admitted to the shooting.

GZ would not have had any way of knowing that night why TM had been suspended, so while I disagree with the information being withheld, I also don't think it has any real bearing on the real issue, namely Zimmerman's state of mind.

I know you will not agree but this is my opinion. and we can agree to dissagree. :D
After you do a neighborhood watch for some time... I think you can size people up a bit better then you and me.
I think based on TM's locker finding Jewelry/screwdriver.
IMO GZ did size up TM right. JMO
Sorry it went as far as it did. Sorry the Police did not investigate immediately.
But GZ did size him up right, sadly he was also overzealous - I do not believe he killed anyone as a racial issue.
Something did happen, and I hope they will connect the dots.
 
BBM

And we've heard ad nauseum what any reasonable person would have done in Zimmerman's situation. And in this instance, any reasonable person would not have stood around after feeling compelled to run from an individual they perceived to be aggressively following them.

You can't really have it both ways.

It is fair to ask what a reasonable person would have done in GZ's situation, since he is the one who chased this kid down and ultimately shot him. It is perhaps, as you say, also reasonable to ask what a reasonable person would have done in TM's place. First let's review what he DID do.

He ran, and when he thought he had left the creepy stalker behind him, he went back to talking to his girlfriend. He was killed about fifteen seconds jog from his front door. We can reasonably conclude that this is what he did because both his girlfriend AND GZ agree that the boy ran away. Did he have some obligation to run, other that to escape his stalker?

According to some, yes he did.

These folks believe that GZ had the right to follow black kids around in his car, phoning the police every time one of them struck him the wrong way. They believe that GZ also had the right to jump out of his car any time he felt like it and chase after these black kids. They believe GZ had the right to stop and question these kids. And finally, they believe that if any of these kids were startled or offended enough to try to defend themselves, they believe that GZ had the right to gun them down. GZ, according to these folks, had all these 'rights' and probably more.

The folks who grant all these fantastic rights to GZ assign an entirely different set of rights and obligations to the black kids he hunted, his prey.

According to them, a black kid has no right to walk around his own apartment complex or neighborhood without being suspected, reported to the police, followed by private citizens, stopped at the whim of these private citizens, and questioned. According to these folks, the black kid has no right to mind his own business without being harassed, he has no right not to be stopped and questioned.

He has no right to wear his hood in the rain, no right to walk slowly enjoying his evening, no right to stand outside talking to his girlfriend on the phone. He has no right to flee if strangers in cars begin following him, no right to feel fear if strange adults aproach him on foot, and if a black kid does flee he must then sprint madly for home not stopping until he is safe behind a locked door.

According to these folks, if a black kid does become so frightened that he defends himself (as we teach our privileged white kids to do), he has no right to WIN. Self defense is a right that black kids don't get, that right is reserved for whites. A black kid must allow himself to be beaten and perhaps even killed. If he does happen to win he will be arrested. If a black kid loses and is killed, his corpse will be tossed in the morgue with no effort made to identify it. No one will bother to investigate the killing of a black kid who tries to assume the same rights that a white kid gets.

Now, I am not saying YOU believe these things. I am saying that there are many many Americans who do, and they have been quite vocal in this case. And what's more, these same fine people who believe that whites and blacks have entirely different rights and rules, get offended and accuse you of playing the 'race card' when you point this double standard out to them.
 
That could very well be. Maybe TM was hiding on a porch and thought he had lost GZ and it was safe to continue on his way home when GZ found him? It is possible but that should be reflected in GZ's statement. jmo

As far as I know, we haven't heard anything but secondhand accounts of Zimmerman's statements. There is nothing to point to Zimmerman continuing his pursuit after being told to stop by dispatch.
 
If Zimmerman had murdered a white boy, he'd be under the jail right now. People can preach to the choir all day long about how this isn't a racial issue but sadly it is because Zimmerman made it a racial issue when he described Trayvon as a "*advertiser censored***** coon." If you want to blame someone for turning it into a racial issue, the blame clearly lies with Zimmerman.


~jmo~

You d not know this at all. There is a new law in place that is creating this mess.
 
why are people referring to GZ stalker? are there any eye witnesses that say they saw GZ stalking TM?
 
I understand that some people think Trayvon could have made it home...well, if someone strange was following me, I'm not sure that I would actually go home. Yes, there is "safety" there, but the person following you now knows where you live. Trayvon had no clue what this strange guy was following him for and his parents were not at home. I just don't know what would be going through his head...

Maybe Trayvon was running trying to lose Zimmerman, and once he did, he would have gone home...

Just speculation, my :twocents:
 
snipped for brevity - respectfully

BBM Because his family provided the pics and to them - he was their sweet little boy in the red shirt. That is who they wanted us to know, in order to get the public to feel their pain and cry out along with for a light to be shone on the situation they felt was not being addressed. I can't say I blame them for that.

hmmm....And I would bet dollars for donuts in light of his school record they also wanted get public support for a sweet boy, not anything the school may have on him. They knew this would come out eventually.
 
As far as I know, we haven't heard anything but secondhand accounts of Zimmerman's statements. There is nothing to point to Zimmerman continuing his pursuit after being told to stop by dispatch.

Zimmerman was not by his car, and would not agree to meet officers at his home or at the mailbox. He wanted to be called when the officers got there, so he could tell them where he was at.

Those things suggest to me that he was on the move. :moo::twocents:
 
As far as I know, we haven't heard anything but secondhand accounts of Zimmerman's statements. There is nothing to point to Zimmerman continuing his pursuit after being told to stop by dispatch.

Then how did TM end up dead by GZ's gun if he didn't continue his pursuit?
 
It is fair to ask what a reasonable person would have done in GZ's situation, since he is the one who chased this kid down and ultimately shot him. It is perhaps, as you say, also reasonable to ask what a reasonable person would have done in TM's place. First let's review what he DID do.

He ran, and when he thought he had left the creepy stalker behind him, he went back to talking to his girlfriend. He was killed about fifteen seconds jog from his front door. We can reasonably conclude that this is what he did because both his girlfriend AND GZ agree that the boy ran away. Did he have some obligation to run, other that to escape his stalker?

According to some, yes he did.

These folks believe that GZ had the right to follow black kids around in his car, phoning the police every time one of them struck him the wrong way. They believe that GZ also had the right to jump out of his car any time he felt like it and chase after these black kids. They believe GZ had the right to stop and question these kids. And finally, they believe that if any of these kids were startled or offended enough to try to defend themselves, they believe that GZ had the right to gun them down. GZ, according to these folks, had all these 'rights' and probably more.

The folks who grant all these fantastic rights to GZ assign an entirely different set of rights and obligations to the black kids he hunted, his prey.

According to them, a black kid has no right to walk around his own apartment complex or neighborhood without being suspected, reported to the police, followed by private citizens, stopped at the whim of these private citizens, and questioned. According to these folks, the black kid has no right to mind his own business without being harassed, he has no right not to be stopped and questioned.

He has no right to wear his hood in the rain, no right to walk slowly enjoying his evening, no right to stand outside talking to his girlfriend on the phone. He has no right to flee if strangers in cars begin following him, no right to feel fear if strange adults aproach him on foot, and if a black kid does flee he must then sprint madly for home not stopping until he is safe behind a locked door.

According to these folks, if a black kid does become so frightened that he defends himself (as we teach our privileged white kids to do), he has no right to WIN. Self defense is a right that black kids don't get, that right is reserved for whites. A black kid must allow himself to be beaten and perhaps even killed. If he does happen to win he will be arrested. If a black kid loses and is killed, his corpse will be tossed in the morgue with no effort made to identify it. No one will bother to investigate the killing of a black kid who tries to assume the same rights that a white kid gets.

Now, I am not saying YOU believe these things. I am saying that there are many many Americans who do, and they have been quite vocal in this case. And what's more, these same fine people who believe that whites and blacks have entirely different rights and rules, get offended and accuse you of playing the 'race card' when you point this double standard out to them.
I see a long rant about racial injustice, but I'm not sure how it really applies to the discussion at hand. This does not have any bearing on the question I posed; it's more of a red herring if anything.

People go on about what Zimmerman has the right to do, and what a reasonable person would be expected to do in the same situation. My quandary is that many people here have alleged that Martin was so afraid of Zimmerman, that he ran. Why, then, did he stop running? Or better yet, why did he just stop? This fight seemed to have occurred right where Zimmerman thought he lost Martin. That is a key question here no matter who you believe was in the right. Going into a dialogue about racial disparity does nothing to answer these questions; it merely provides an excuse to not have to think about it.

It is very possible that Martin hid under a porch, and got perturbed that Zimmerman was lingering around. Maybe he thought he had no choice but to defend himself.

These are valid questions that aren't as... divisive as you seem to be making them.
 
I see USA Today is making an attempt at being balanced by showing the opposing viewpoints regarding Stand your Ground Laws, are they effective, are they necessary, etc. I appreciate both views being examined in their Op/Ed section.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinio...tand-your-ground-trayvon-zimmerman/53795046/1

Fact is, the new law was unnecessary. People have always had a right to self defense, particularly in their own homes or vehicles. Sponsors in the Florida Legislature relied on a vague anecdote about an elderly man who, after the series of hurricanes in 2004, shot an intruder in his trailer. The man was never charged, but he had to wait months before prosecutors made the decision. That's an awfully thin reed for a drastic change in criminal laws.
USATODAY OPINION

About Editorials/Debate
Opinions expressed in USA TODAY's editorials are decided by its Editorial Board, a demographically and ideologically diverse group that is separate from USA TODAY's news staff.
Most editorials are accompanied by an opposing view &#8212; a unique USA TODAY feature that allows readers to reach conclusions based on both sides of an argument rather than just the Editorial Board's point of view.

At the time, police and prosecutors warned against the change, and it appears that their fears are being realized. Since 2005, the number of cases classified as justifiable homicides in Florida has more than doubled. "Stand your ground" has been invoked in numerous killings where unarmed people have been shot or stabbed in dubious circumstances.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/story/2012-03-26/stand-your-ground-police/53795024/1

Some individuals argue that the "stand your ground" defense has opened the door to a free-for-all shooting gallery. This is simply not true. Although the number of justifiable homicides in Florida has more than doubled since "stand your ground" was passed in 2005, the rate of violent crime in the state deceased by 23% from 2005 to 2010, according to FBI statistics. This is not to say that the "stand your ground" law in itself caused the decrease, but it certainly was a factor.
The main issue is not the law itself, but the way it is applied. The law is designed to protect innocent victims. It does not have any provision to protect original aggressors.

THIS is what we should be discussing IMHO. This law, is it effective, does it need tweeking, is it being misapplied? THIS is the conversation I want to see. Not who wore what, whose photo looks more menacing, etc.
 
I really think we can abandon the thought that some had that he had used that term. Considering:

1. That language is COMPLETELY out of character for the rest of his discussion with the dispatcher. There are no other derogatory or inflammatory remarks in the tape about Trayvon, or use of the F word. I don't think young hispanic men use the term coon. Ever.

2. No one uses that term anymore. There are racial slurs that can be used by those who act like that, but coon isn't one of them.

3. It's too grainy for anyone to agree that's what was said. Although MSM put their best effort into proving it, they sadly had to keep saying that no concensus could be reached.

I am hoping the FBI voice analysis not only tells us who was yelling what and when, but what he muttered under his breath.
 
hmmm....And I would bet dollars for donuts in light of his school record they also wanted get public support for a sweet boy, not anything the school may have on him. They knew this would come out eventually.

Parents who are grieving the loss of a child don't think this way. It would be the farthest thing from their minds. Believe me, I know.
 
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