2012.02.07 - 911 Tapes Released

[ami]

BBM

Your opinion is very similar to mine. I don't think it would have made one bit of difference if the Chief of Police AND his entire S.W.A.T. team were there when the social worker had the door slammed in her face.

Unless they brought a mind reader with them, how could anyone imagine that their father would be attacking these boys with a hatchet almost immediately after shutting the door? How could anyone imagine that he would then pour gasoline on their little bodies? How could anyone imagine that he would light a match causing the explosion and ending their lives 13 minutes after slamming the door?

I believe LE would have needed a warrant to smash the door in. How are you gonna get a warrant in 13 minutes? What kind of probable cause for this warrant could they have used without a mind reader?

That's exactly how I feel. Exactly.

Because there were two small boys and a father holding them hostage, they would have been as careful as possible to try to get them out of there without setting JP off. They wouldn't have beat the door down immediately upon arriving. They almost never do that. They would have no way of knowing that JP was about to murder them. My guess is they would have treated it like a hostage situation.

When the house blew up they'd know, but by then it would have been too late.

 

[ami]

Nah, that's what my husband had...

I do think the extra minutes could have made the difference. The boys didn't die of the neck injuries, they died of smoke inhalation, and he didn't set the fire immediately. The fire department could have busted the door down with their axes and LE could have taken him out before he had a chance to set the fire. Besides, as someone else here pointed out, it wasn't the 911 operator's call to decide if it was a life-threatening emergency and delay the dispatch. He assigned it a low-priority call instead of high-priority, which would have set the engines rolling lights & siren- FULL CODE! He played God, which didn't help the boys' chances. Had they been gotten to in time, they might have been severely injured, but lived.

What do you think Josh Powell would have done when he heard sirens coming up the street?

He'd planned their deaths. He'd soaked the house with fuel. He'd given all their toys away and left goodbye messages. He lured them in the house and chopped at their necks with a hatchet. He hears sirens coming and ..... what would he have done?

 

[mysteriew]

:truce: Ok. I surrender.
My opinion seems to be different from everyone else's about this stuff... I haven't seen an exact timeline for the response times for LE or the fire department, so I have no clue how many minutes it took them to arrive at that house and what the possibilities were if they had been dispatched sooner.

I guess it's time for me to go back to lurk mode... :lurk:

I'm not sure yet if I agree with you or not as I just started reading here. But I do want to comment on this.

If we all agreed on a case and had the same opinions, we would soon run out of things to discuss. So please don't go back to lurkdom.

We just all need to remember that unless we have a link, it is all opinion. All opinions are valid. Even if we disagree. And neven take any disagreement personal. Most of the time it isn't intended that way.

 

[sherbetjello]

I must have missed that. Is there a link to where the teacher told this to Josh?

The Tuesday after the boys died, The Cox's came on NG and they explained the picture in great detail. They said that the teachers had originally overlooked the drawings of the children and one day a teacher asked "Where is Mommy?" cause Susan wasn't in the picture. The outcome was that they said "She is in the trunk."

This video is probably in the media thread. But the way I have gathered the information is that it wasn't a drawing of Susan in the trunk, just the children explaining why Susan wasn't in the drawing.

Hope that makes sense.

 

[Sassygerl]

What do you think Josh Powell would have done when he heard sirens coming up the street?

He'd planned their deaths. He'd soaked the house with fuel. He'd given all their toys away and left goodbye messages. He lured them in the house and chopped at their necks with a hatchet. He hears sirens coming and ..... what would he have done?

He would have lit the match or lighter. Just jumping off your post, but I don't think it makes a bit of difference whether the police had arrived sooner or not. Josh had a plan, and it was going to happen. It wasn't like he was running around with the gas after the boys were dropped off. He was all set. I think it's truly a miracle not more people were killed.

 

[suzihawk]

I'll never understand sending a kid home with a picture of the minivan mommy disappeared in, and telling the father he drew it and explained it.

The Tuesday after the boys died, The Cox's came on NG and they explained the picture in great detail. They said that the teachers had originally overlooked the drawings of the children and one day a teacher asked "Where is Mommy?" cause Susan wasn't in the picture. The outcome was that they said "She is in the trunk."

This video is probably in the media thread. But the way I have gathered the information is that it wasn't a drawing of Susan in the trunk, just the children explaining why Susan wasn't in the drawing.

Hope that makes sense.

Yes, it makes sense and I remember Judy and Chuck discussing this. But the OP that I'm referring to above implies that the teacher gave this information to Josh (the father, not the grandparents). I don't recall this being reported so I'm puzzled where this came from. Unless I misunderstood the post...

 

[LinasK]

What do you think Josh Powell would have done when he heard sirens coming up the street?

He'd planned their deaths. He'd soaked the house with fuel. He'd given all their toys away and left goodbye messages. He lured them in the house and chopped at their necks with a hatchet. He hears sirens coming and ..... what would he have done?

So according to you, we shouldn't have even tried to stop him??? And it was a fire, not an explosion...

 

[karen7868]

Nah, that's what my husband had...

I do think the extra minutes could have made the difference. The boys didn't die of the neck injuries, they died of smoke inhalation, and he didn't set the fire immediately. The fire department could have busted the door down with their axes and LE could have taken him out before he had a chance to set the fire. Besides, as someone else here pointed out, it wasn't the 911 operator's call to decide if it was a life-threatening emergency and delay the dispatch. He assigned it a low-priority call instead of high-priority, which would have set the engines rolling lights & siren- FULL CODE! He played God, which didn't help the boys' chances. Had they been gotten to in time, they might have been severely injured, but lived.

I agree. We will never know though because of the negligent 911 operator, which gained NO sympathy from me whatsoever on the Dateline show. I really couldn't believe he was not so ashamed of himself and went on national television.

I still can't believe he could not comprehend it was a life threatening situation when the SW clearing says "this is an emergency" and "I'm afraid for their lives".

What part of those two those two statements did he not understand? Really.

He stated in the Dateline interview that he knew who "Josh Powell" was but it didn't resonate with him that it was "that Josh Powell".

She stated plainly in the call that it is "Josh Powell, it's a high profile case".

How did her saying high profile case not jog his memory.

He didn't seem remorseful at all in the interview and I thought he was somewhat trying to place the blame on the SW.

I agree about the GPS. I don't think she would have mentioned it if she didn't think she had the service. He didn't even hestiate to say "no" when she asked. He was probably just too darn lazy to look.

That whole interview with him ticked me off. Because of him, we will never know if it would have mattered.

 

[jjenny]

Nah, that's what my husband had...

I do think the extra minutes could have made the difference. The boys didn't die of the neck injuries, they died of smoke inhalation, and he didn't set the fire immediately. The fire department could have busted the door down with their axes and LE could have taken him out before he had a chance to set the fire. Besides, as someone else here pointed out, it wasn't the 911 operator's call to decide if it was a life-threatening emergency and delay the dispatch. He assigned it a low-priority call instead of high-priority, which would have set the engines rolling lights & siren- FULL CODE! He played God, which didn't help the boys' chances. Had they been gotten to in time, they might have been severely injured, but lived.

Except I can't think of a single case where it had actually happened. In Petit case police were sitting outside the home setting up a perimeter, so a mother was killed and 2 daughters burned to death. If LE believed this is a hostage situation and got there before the fire department, LE would not let fire department into the house because fire department is not there to rescue hostages. And frankly there wasn't enough time to do all that anyway, considering that even if deputies were dispatched right after CW told him the address, they would still likely not arrive before the fire.

 

[jjenny]

So according to you, we shouldn't have even tried to stop him??? And it was a fire, not an explosion...

How would it be possible to stop him? Fire departments do not rescue hostages, police does. And police is not likely going to run into the burning house to rescue anyone either. There was no chance of actually stopping him once he got the children inside and locked the door. Again, in Peptit case people burned and died even though police were sitting right outside.

 

[cluciano63]

I agree that real life is really not like "Rescue Me" and I doubt anyone would have been allowed to rush into a house that was totally engulfed...people can't send in more people to die...I don't think there was anything that could have been done in this case. But I couldn't believe how dense the 911 operator came off; he seemed to think she was talking about herself being there to supervise or train another SW, and he totally did not get that she was on a supervised visit with a parent and children. JMO

 

[TotallyObsessed]

The Tuesday after the boys died, The Cox's came on NG and they explained the picture in great detail. They said that the teachers had originally overlooked the drawings of the children and one day a teacher asked "Where is Mommy?" cause Susan wasn't in the picture. The outcome was that they said "She is in the trunk."

This video is probably in the media thread. But the way I have gathered the information is that it wasn't a drawing of Susan in the trunk, just the children explaining why Susan wasn't in the drawing.

Hope that makes sense.

I saw that interview also and I understood that the teacher asked "where's Mommy?" and the child pointed to the trunk and said "in the trunk". But I also remember that someone (don't know if it was the Coxes) said that that drawing was in with the boy's school papers and went home with them. While they were living with Josh. I gathered the teacher must have relayed that story to the Coxes. And the picture was long gone.

 

[TotallyObsessed]

I agree that real life is really not like "Rescue Me" and I doubt anyone would have been allowed to rush into a house that was totally engulfed...people can't send in more people to die...I don't think there was anything that could have been done in this case. But I couldn't believe how dense the 911 operator came off; he seemed to think she was talking about herself being there to supervise or train another SW, and he totally did not get that she was on a supervised visit with a parent and children. JMO

I agree. I don't think LEO or firefighters could have gotten there in time. My beef though, is with the callous manner in which that operator handled the call. He made the decision to discount what the SW was saying to him. He was arrogant. He was STILL arrogant on the Dateline show. It came through loud and clear. He needs to be in another line of work. Preferably not where he has to help people in need.

MOO

 

[jjenny]

I agree that real life is really not like "Rescue Me" and I doubt anyone would have been allowed to rush into a house that was totally engulfed...people can't send in more people to die...I don't think there was anything that could have been done in this case. But I couldn't believe how dense the 911 operator came off; he seemed to think she was talking about herself being there to supervise or train another SW, and he totally did not get that she was on a supervised visit with a parent and children. JMO

Yes, he couldn't understand in the beginning what she was there to do. But to be fair except for smell of gasoline only in the end of 911 call she told him this was a life threatening emergency. And since she didn't say smell of gasoline was coming from the house he apparently decided it was coming from her car which she wanted to pull out of the driveway. I think in a way they are lucky the deputies didn't show up before the fire because given the info that this was a custody related situation they could have very well knocked on the door. Which would likely have led JP to start the fire and possibly kill more people.

 

[sorrell skye]

That's exactly how I feel. Exactly.

Because there were two small boys and a father holding them hostage, they would have been as careful as possible to try to get them out of there without setting JP off. They wouldn't have beat the door down immediately upon arriving. They almost never do that. They would have no way of knowing that JP was about to murder them. My guess is they would have treated it like a hostage situation.

When the house blew up they'd know, but by then it would have been too late.

Yes - it would more than likely have been treated like a hostage situation, and a negotiator (not necessarily a SWAT negotiator, but someone skilled @ talking to someone on the verge) may have been able to buy more time for little Charlie and Braden.

He would have lit the match or lighter. Just jumping off your post, but I don't think it makes a bit of difference whether the police had arrived sooner or not. Josh had a plan, and it was going to happen. It wasn't like he was running around with the gas after the boys were dropped off. He was all set. I think it's truly a miracle not more people were killed.

We'll never know, though, because no one was given the opportunity to try to talk JP out of his murderous plans.

I agree. We will never know though because of the negligent 911 operator, which gained NO sympathy from me whatsoever on the Dateline show. I really couldn't believe he was not so ashamed of himself and went on national television.

I still can't believe he could not comprehend it was a life threatening situation when the SW clearing says "this is an emergency" and "I'm afraid for their lives".

What part of those two those two statements did he not understand? Really.

He stated in the Dateline interview that he knew who "Josh Powell" was but it didn't resonate with him that it was "that Josh Powell".

She stated plainly in the call that it is "Josh Powell, it's a high profile case".

How did her saying high profile case not jog his memory.

He didn't seem remorseful at all in the interview and I thought he was somewhat trying to place the blame on the SW.

I agree about the GPS. I don't think she would have mentioned it if she didn't think she had the service. He didn't even hestiate to say "no" when she asked. He was probably just too darn lazy to look.

That whole interview with him ticked me off. Because of him, we will never know if it would have mattered.

:goodpost: I agree 100%. What part of "This is an emergency" and "I'm afraid for their lives" did he not understand? Did he not take her seriously because she wasn't hysterical and screaming? Kudos to her for keeping her head in an emergency situation!

I must say that I don't agree with the idea that the murders of these two precious little boys would have still happened if LE had arrived before JP set the house on fire, or that JP would have still carried out his evil plans if visitation would have taken place elsewhere or had been revoked altogether.

I don't agree that nothing could have been done to prevent JP from carrying out his murderous plans. IMO, this is an apathetic, helpless response that does nothing to enlighten us or to inform us so that future tragedies can be prevented.

I don't agree that the 911 operator's callous and negligent attitude played no active role in the tragic events of February 5th.

If first responders had arrived before JP set the house on fire, it's entirely possible that someone may have been able to talk JP down off the ledge. As long as people are alive, there is always the opportunity to change course.

As it is, the 911 operator chose to trivialize a real time life-threatening emergency. IMO, if he isn't fired, he needs to resign, and seek work where his decisions do not affect the lives and safety of others.

As for me, I refuse to adopt the attitude that nothing could have been done to circumvent the murders of Charlie and Braden. Plenty could have been done, not the least of which was revoking visitation pending the psychosexual evaluation. As far as I can see, there were a multitude of chances where someone could have made the right decision.

The safety of little Charlie and Braden has been like a cascade of dominoes these past 2+ years. Chuck and Judy Cox stepped up and did what it took to keep their grandchildren safe. All that was needed was one person in a position of authority to step up and stop the cascade.

I refuse to seek comfort in the false notion that nothing could have been done. Plenty could have been done.

 

[AnaTeresa]

Considering that he physically attacked the boys very quickly after the door was shut, no emergency response could have gotten there fast enough. They might have arrived before the fire started - but Charlie and Braden were already injured. Those injuries were likely fatal on their own.

Given the circumstances, no one was going to go rushing into that situation and break the door down. It takes even more time to establish a negotiator. Shaving a few minutes off the response time wouldn't have changed the final outcome, given how fast things happened. This isn't the movies. Things simply do not happen that fast.

 

[Just K]

It all goes to the naivety of the Judge's decision, given what she had instructed JP to do and telling him that he wasn't getting the kids back, to allow the visitation at his home and for DSHS not to recommend a more "controlled" visitation with more than one caseworker or DSHS representative to supervise family visits.

In an article or a quote on a news show, it looks like DSHS went directly into CYA mode. When it was first stated that JP complained about the lack of quality time at the "safe house," they are now saying that the presence of JP at the "safe house" was disturbing, distracting or unsettling (something of that nature) to the other families who were trying to have their family visits. To that, my immediate thought was BBBBBBBBBBBBBB SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!

I can't find that exact quote but here is another link where Reps for DSHS defend the agencies decisions:
http://mynorthwest.com/11/625067/DSHS-defends-its-handling-of-Josh-Powell-case#

Lawmakers are questioning DSHS's decision to allow the home visits:
http://www.q13fox.com/news/kcpq-lawmakers-call-for-dshs-supervision-changes-20120207,0,1127948.story

I found it...it was at 15:32 on the 20/20 show:
http://abc.go.com/watch/2020/SH559026/VD55170303/2020-210-sins-of-the-father

 

[jjenny]

I think it's crystal clear there was no talking JP out of it. It appears he hatcheted the children as soon as they showed up in his house. The CW heard him telling the children he had a surprise and then a child cried out. I presume that's when hatcheting happened, which was right after the door closed.
How was anyone going to talk him out of it when before any help arrived he already hatcheted the children?

 

[LinasK]

I agree that real life is really not like "Rescue Me" and I doubt anyone would have been allowed to rush into a house that was totally engulfed...people can't send in more people to die...I don't think there was anything that could have been done in this case. But I couldn't believe how dense the 911 operator came off; he seemed to think she was talking about herself being there to supervise or train another SW, and he totally did not get that she was on a supervised visit with a parent and children. JMO

Since I have never seen "Rescue Me", I have no idea what you are using for a basis for comparison.

 

[LinasK]

I think it's crystal clear there was no talking JP out of it. It appears he hatcheted the children as soon as they showed up in his house. The CW heard him telling the children he had a surprise and then a child cried out. I presume that's when hatcheting happened, which was right after the door closed.
How was anyone going to talk him out of it when before any help arrived he already hatcheted the children?

I wasn't the one who brought up hostage negotiation. As I stated earlier in the thread, someone needed to try to stop Josh regardless of Josh's intentions. Yes, he was hellbent on destruction, but the boys didn't die from the neck wounds and there was time, had the dispatcher sent help immediately for either the fire department or LE to break down the door by whatever means necessary and take Josh out (even if it meant shooting him) to rescue the boys. They might have lived albeit severely injured.