2012.02.07 - 911 Tapes Released

[sorrell skye]

Considering that he physically attacked the boys very quickly after the door was shut, no emergency response could have gotten there fast enough. They might have arrived before the fire started - but Charlie and Braden were already injured. Those injuries were likely fatal on their own.

Given the circumstances, no one was going to go rushing into that situation and break the door down. It takes even more time to establish a negotiator. Shaving a few minutes off the response time wouldn't have changed the final outcome, given how fast things happened. This isn't the movies. Things simply do not happen that fast.

I have no idea how soon after JP shut & locked the door that he attacked the boys with the hatchet, nor does anyone else. For all we know, he didn't attack them immediately. He may have done so right before striking the match (which was many long minutes after he sequestered the boys inside, while the 911 operator was wasting precious time on the phone, instead of dispatching first responders).

I'm not silly enough to believe that ridiculous TV crime dramas even begin to simulate real life.

My opinions aren't based on pseudo-crime cable TV shows. My opinions are based, in part, on my own experience years ago as a DV victim's advocate, and also as the mother of a daughter who was kidnapped and came within minutes of being murdered by her abductor. If not for the professionalism of the 911 operator who received my daughter's 911 call, and the immediate action of LE, my daughter would not be alive today.

Minutes can oftentimes make all the difference in a life and death situation. Minutes can oftentimes save lives.

 

[jjenny]

Again, CW called 911 at 12:08. She couldn't give the address right away. At 12:15, first 911 call came about house being already on fire (from a neighbor). Given those numbers, I don't see how any help could have arrived in time, even if this help was send immediately after CW was able to find an address.
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/utes/53495251-78/2012-feb-sunday-powell.html.csp

 

[LinasK]

Again, CW called 911 at 12:08. She couldn't give the address right away. At 12:15, first 911 call came about house being already on fire. Given those numbers, I don't see how any help could have arrived in time, even if this help was send immediately after CW was able to find an address.
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/utes/53495251-78/2012-feb-sunday-powell.html.csp

She gave the address within the first two minutes- granted that's not immediate- but it still could have shaved off a whole 5 minutes, which is alot in a crisis situation!

 

[jjenny]

She gave the address within the first two minutes- granted that's not immediate- but it still could have shaved off a whole 5 minutes, which is alot in a crisis situation!

Wouldn't have been enough in this case. Again, no way police is going to run in and break the door right away after arriving on the scene and not knowing what's going on.

 

[LinasK]

Wouldn't have been enough in this case.

I think it could have...

 

[LinasK]

Yes - it would more than likely have been treated like a hostage situation, and a negotiator (not necessarily a SWAT negotiator, but someone skilled @ talking to someone on the verge) may have been able to buy more time for little Charlie and Braden.


We'll never know, though, because no one was given the opportunity to try to talk JP out of his murderous plans.



:goodpost: I agree 100%. What part of "This is an emergency" and "I'm afraid for their lives" did he not understand? Did he not take her seriously because she wasn't hysterical and screaming? Kudos to her for keeping her head in an emergency situation!

I must say that I don't agree with the idea that the murders of these two precious little boys would have still happened if LE had arrived before JP set the house on fire, or that JP would have still carried out his evil plans if visitation would have taken place elsewhere or had been revoked altogether.

I don't agree that nothing could have been done to prevent JP from carrying out his murderous plans. IMO, this is an apathetic, helpless response that does nothing to enlighten us or to inform us so that future tragedies can be prevented.

I don't agree that the 911 operator's callous and negligent attitude played no active role in the tragic events of February 5th.

If first responders had arrived before JP set the house on fire, it's entirely possible that someone may have been able to talk JP down off the ledge. As long as people are alive, there is always the opportunity to change course.

As it is, the 911 operator chose to trivialize a real time life-threatening emergency. IMO, if he isn't fired, he needs to resign, and seek work where his decisions do not affect the lives and safety of others.

As for me, I refuse to adopt the attitude that nothing could have been done to circumvent the murders of Charlie and Braden. Plenty could have been done, not the least of which was revoking visitation pending the psychosexual evaluation. As far as I can see, there were a multitude of chances where someone could have made the right decision.

The safety of little Charlie and Braden has been like a cascade of dominoes these past 2+ years. Chuck and Judy Cox stepped up and did what it took to keep their grandchildren safe. All that was needed was one person in a position of authority to step up and stop the cascade.

I refuse to seek comfort in the false notion that nothing could have been done. Plenty could have been done.

BBM.And I think this is an excellent post that bears repeating!:clap::clap::clap::goodpost:

 

[sorrell skye]

5 minutes, or 2 minutes, or even 1 minute, can stretch out into another minute, and another minute, and another, in a hostage situation.

I'm not talking about breaking down a door.

I'm talking about talking. If someone had been given the opportunity to talk to JP, even for a minute, who knows whether or not that may have made a difference? But it may have. The problem is, no one will ever know, since no one was given the opportunity to talk to him.

He sent multiple e-mails to his sister AP, as well as e-mails to several other people, earlier that day before he set his final plan in motion. This tells me he may have wanted someone to talk him down from the ledge. This tells me that if someone had arrived in time, they may have been able to intervene.

Sometimes, all it takes is one minute to distract someone from their final plan, and a life is saved.

 

[jjenny]

5 minutes, or 2 minutes, or even 1 minute, can stretch out into another minute, and another minute, and another, in a hostage situation.

I'm not talking about breaking down a door.

I'm talking about talking. If someone had been given the opportunity to talk to JP, even for a minute, who knows whether or not that may have made a difference? But it may have. The problem is, no one will ever know, since no one was given the opportunity to talk to him.

He sent multiple e-mails to his sister AP, as well as e-mails to several other people, earlier that day before he set his final plan in motion. This tells me he may have wanted someone to talk him down from the ledge. This tells me that if someone had arrived in time, they may have been able to intervene.

Sometimes, all it takes is one minute to distract someone from their final plan, and a life is saved.

Yea, well, the CW was there reportedly banging on the door and windows (presumably that's why she didn't call 911 right away). Also I read a report where she tried to call his cell phone. Obviously having someone to talk to there (CW) didn't stop him.

 

[mamamia54]

Yea, well, the CW was there reportedly banging on the door and windows (presumably that's why she didn't call 911 right away). Also I read a report where she tried to call his cell phone. Obviously having someone to talk to there (CW) didn't stop him.

I really feel in my heart that you are correct. He wouldn't answer the phone even had someone in LE called him. He had a mental attitude at that point where there was no one going to stop him, he was a loose cannon, pure and simple. He had those boys chopped while the CW was banging on the window, he didn't wait. Monsters don't wait, they act, that's what makes them the sick human trash they are.

 

[LinasK]

Yea, well, the CW was there reportedly banging on the door and windows (presumably that's why she didn't call 911 right away). Also I read a report where she tried to call his cell phone. Obviously having someone to talk to there (CW) didn't stop him.

He didn't respect her authority, that's why he slammed the door shut on her. Besides, she wasn't a trained hostage negotiator, they know how to get people to respond, he might have listened, what could it have hurt? It might have helped, we'll never know!

 

[LinasK]

I really feel in my heart that you are correct. He wouldn't answer the phone even had someone in LE called him. He had a mental attitude at that point where there was no one going to stop him, he was a loose cannon, pure and simple. He had those boys chopped while the CW was banging on the window, he didn't wait. Monsters don't wait, they act, that's what makes them the sick human trash they are.

Nobody's disagreeing with you about Josh's intentions; however, the boys didn't die of the neck injuries. Someone other than the SW needed to try to stop Josh from further damage- that's what we are saying...

 

[cluciano63]

Since I have never seen "Rescue Me", I have no idea what you are using for a basis for comparison.

The firemen are constantly racing into totally engulfed buildings, even while explosions are happening...which to me is not likely to really happen. JMO

 

[jjenny]

He didn't respect her authority, that's why he slammed the door shut on her. Besides, she wasn't a trained hostage negotiator, they know how to get people to respond, he might have listened, what could it have hurt? It might have helped, we'll never know!

How was the trained hostage negotiator going to get there in five minutes? Cause five minutes is about all we got after CW gave 911 the address and the house already being on fire. And not only get there, but establish contact with JP and talk him out of it?

 

[mamamia54]

Nobody's disagreeing with you about Josh's intentions; however, the boys didn't die of the neck injuries. Someone other than the SW needed to try to stop Josh from further damage- that's what we are saying...

I KNOW exactly what you're saying, SWAT needed to be called. What I'm saying, is that even they couldn't have stopped him. JMHO

 

[sorrell skye]

I wasn't the one who brought up hostage negotiation. As I stated earlier in the thread, someone needed to try to stop Josh regardless of Josh's intentions. Yes, he was hellbent on destruction, but the boys didn't die from the neck wounds and there was time, had the dispatcher sent help immediately for either the fire department or LE to break down the door by whatever means necessary and take Josh out (even if it meant shooting him) to rescue the boys. They might have lived albeit severely injured.

BBM

Correct - they didn't die from the hatchet wounds. According to reports, the ME stated they died from smoke inhalation.

I don't think LE would have kicked in the door upon arrival, but it's possible that they may have been able to talk to him long enough that someone may have been able to intervene to save the boys' lives, if LE had been dispatched before JP set the house on fire.

Many mistakes were made in this case. I don't think it's helpful at all to sweep them under the rug and shrug our shoulders and say nothing could have been done to prevent it.

The only way to learn from mistakes is to acknowledge them, study them, and figure out what could have been done differently, so as not to make the same mistakes again.

 

[jjenny]

BBM

Correct - they didn't die from the hatchet wounds. According to reports, the ME stated they died from smoke inhalation.

I don't think LE would have kicked in the door upon arrival, but it's possible that they may have been able to talk to him long enough that someone may have been able to intervene to save the boys' lives, if LE had been dispatched before JP set the house on fire.

Many mistakes were made in this case. I don't think it's helpful at all to sweep them under the rug and shrug our shoulders and say nothing could have been done to prevent it.

How would they be able to talk to him? He was not answering his cell phone. And five minutes at the most is probably only enough for police to arrive on the scene with a siren. And as soon as JP heard a siren I think it's obvious what JP would do.

 

[mamamia54]

That SW called 911 almost immediately, 5 minutes wouldn't have been enough time.

 

[sorrell skye]

I'm eternally grateful that the 911 dispatcher in my daughter's case didn't take the same couldn't-care-less attitude that the 911 dispatcher in this case did.

5 minutes is a significant amount of time in a life and death situation, regardless of the circumstances, but especially if the victims are still alive. As I stated before, 1 minute can stretch into another minute, and another, and another.

It could very well be true that it wouldn't have made a difference if LE had arrived sooner. The bottom line is: we'll never know, because LE wasn't given the opportunity to arrive sooner, because the 911 dispatcher didn't take the call seriously.

I refuse to conclude that it wouldn't have made a difference, because we just don't know. It may have made all the difference in the world.

 

[FrayedKnot]

Well the fish stinks from the head.

None of these people-the CW, the 911 operator, even the Coxes would have been in a position to guess and second guess the "what ifs" were it not for the bonehead judges who thought it was a swell idea for JP to have first, custody, then supervised visitation AT HOME.

If anyone deserves to walk the floors at night filled with guilt and shame, it's the people who allowed that loon anywhere near those boys.

MOO.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[AnaTeresa]

The boys didn't die from the hatchet wounds in the short span of time between their injury and the start of the fire. That does not mean that, had the fire been prevented/police broke the door down/a hostage negotiator teleported to that location and managed to form a deep, personal connection with JP in two minutes, they would have survived those injuries. Death from smoke inhalation does not necessarily mean that those hatchet injuries were survivable - it simply means that they still had brain stem function so that their lungs inhaled smoke.

The boys were doomed as soon as they set foot in that house. It takes time to set a perimeter, time to open a line of communication, time for any one rescue group to even arrive on the scene - and that time didn't exist in this case.