2012.02.07 - 911 Tapes Released

[GrainneDhu]

My own real life experience this is NOT true! They CAN find you by cell phone gps alone!

Two months ago I was driving interstate 35, 2 hours away on my way back home from work. There was some hinky activity i saw and i didnt know what county i was in but just dialed 911 on my cell to report it. I told the lady what was going on and that i was on interstate 35 & didnt know what county or the nearest town from where i was at. She hooked my call straight to the sheriffs dispatch to the county i was in. THEN the sheriffs dispatch said to me, "you just passed mile marker 123 on interstate 35, Correct?" I told her i didnt know that i wasnt looking and would look at the next mile marker i pass. Sure enough I HAD just passed mile marker 123 as she said to me! She knew that by my cell phone GPS AND I DONT EVEN HAVE A SMART PHONE!

I dont know what happened here in this case, but i know from my experience the sheriffs office knew EXACTLY where i was at the exact moment and I WAS DRIVING IN MY TRUCK AT THE TIME!

OWWW THIS MAKES ME SO UPSET!!! THE WHOLE 911 CALL WHERE HE IS PUTTING HER OFF LIKE ITS NOTHING JUST MAKES ME BOIL!!! MY OPINION IS HE SHOULD NOT BE A 911 DISPATCHER! HE SHOULD LEAVE THAT TO THOSE WHO HAVE INSTINCT AND INTUITION AND THOSE WHO LISTEN TO WHATS BEING SAID!!!!! ASKING WHAT HE LOOKS LIKE, HIS HAIR COLOR AND ALL THAT CRAP WTH!!! SEND SOMEBODY!!!!!!!!!! NOW!!!!!!!!!!

SORRY FOR THE RANT!
Artzypantz

Here's my real life experience.

The last time I got a new cell phone, I got one of the cheapest/simplest models they had. My husband and I jokingly call it a "geezerphone" because it doesn't play music, it doesn't hook up to the internet, all it does is make phone calls.

I was warned by the cell store rep that the phone I had chosen was *not* GPS enabled. So if I were ever in a situation where 911 had to try to locate me via my cell phone, all 911 would get would be my position within a circle of a certain size, probably at least a half mile in diameter, depending on where my cell phone was at the time.

Not all GPS enabled phones are smartphones, BTW.

 

[GrainneDhu]

BBM

Your opinion is very similar to mine. I don't think it would have made one bit of difference if the Chief of Police AND his entire S.W.A.T. team were there when the social worker had the door slammed in her face.

Unless they brought a mind reader with them, how could anyone imagine that their father would be attacking these boys with a hatchet almost immediately after shutting the door? How could anyone imagine that he would then pour gasoline on their little bodies? How could anyone imagine that he would light a match causing the explosion and ending their lives 13 minutes after slamming the door?

I believe LE would have needed a warrant to smash the door in. How are you gonna get a warrant in 13 minutes? What kind of probable cause for this warrant could they have used without a mind reader?

And even with the mind reader, just how do you smash in a door without a risk of causing a spark? The house had been doused with five gallons of gasoline, which is highly volatile and explosive. All it would have taken was one spark, say from metal striking against metal, to blow the whole place sky high. Or even just striking a match against the cover when he heard noise on the porch.

Which is actually what happened anyway.

The only difference having LE smash in the door would have been the death of an officer would have been added to this tragedy.

 

[GrainneDhu]

I wasn't the one who brought up hostage negotiation. As I stated earlier in the thread, someone needed to try to stop Josh regardless of Josh's intentions. Yes, he was hellbent on destruction, but the boys didn't die from the neck wounds and there was time, had the dispatcher sent help immediately for either the fire department or LE to break down the door by whatever means necessary and take Josh out (even if it meant shooting him) to rescue the boys. They might have lived albeit severely injured.

BBM

Shooting Josh Powell in the middle of that gasoline soaked house would have started a fireball that would most likely have engulfed whoever shot him.

 

[GrainneDhu]

I lurk here quite often and drawn mostly to crimes against sweet innocent children. At times (like this) I'm just sickened and my heart aches so much.

And I wonder why I subject myself to the horrificness of it all and why I don't look away. The only reason I can come up with is... these poor children don't have the choice to look away. They endure so much... some dying and some surviving.

I pray for all these tiny victims and their loved ones!! I will not look away.

LAMARQ, bless you.

I spent over three months on a burn unit several years ago. The treatments were so horrifically painful that I have specified in my living will that I do not ever want to go through that again. I'd literally rather die.

The very worst part, for me, was the times when I felt I was alone and isolated with the pain.

Knowing someone like you is willing to look at the horror with them may well help a survivor.

 

[SmoothOperator]

There is something I've been meaning to discuss since the day the 911calls were released... I may have missed where someone else already brought this up but I've not seen it discussed..

I've only listened to alina's call one time and it stood out to me then.. In her talking to 911 whining about she thought her brother was gonna do something to himself but could not tell 911 where he lived so they could do a welfare check.. In the midst of Alina whining out that her brother had received such abuse.. Blah.. Blah.. Blah.. This operator interrupts her and says did your brother have a supervised visitation scheduled with his sons for today?

This was early into the call but I immediately recognized this 911 operator had already quickly assessed and knew it was JP.. Remember at the point of alina's call JP had already ignited the home..

But Alina never once even skips a beat into the Powell pity party to the operator.. Alina had not even made a single mention that her brother even had kids.. Yet it didn't strike her when the operator comes out and asks her if he had a supervised visit with his boys??. It struck me like a bolt of lightning!!!! Knowing that the 911 operator knew all of this and handled the call superbly well.. And I only wish the sw had been connected to this particular operator instead of the unprofessional one that she unfortunately had to deal with..

 

[x_files]

There is something I've been meaning to discuss since the day the 911calls were released... I may have missed where someone else already brought this up but I've not seen it discussed..

I've only listened to alina's call one time and it stood out to me then.. In her talking to 911 whining about she thought her brother was gonna do something to himself but could not tell 911 where he lived so they could do a welfare check.. In the midst of Alina whining out that her brother had received such abuse.. Blah.. Blah.. Blah.. This operator interrupts her and says did your brother have a supervised visitation scheduled with his sons for today?

This was early into the call but I immediately recognized this 911 operator had already quickly assessed and knew it was JP.. Remember at the point of alina's call JP had already ignited the home..

But Alina never once even skips a beat into the Powell pity party to the operator.. Alina had not even made a single mention that her brother even had kids.. Yet it didn't strike her when the operator comes out and asks her if he had a supervised visit with his boys??. It struck me like a bolt of lightning!!!! Knowing that the 911 operator knew all of this and handled the call superbly well.. And I only wish the sw had been connected to this particular operator instead of the unprofessional one that she unfortunately had to deal with..

What struck me as odd, she knew he had a visitation but, not once says I am afraid because his sons are with him. She knew.

 

[DLT88]

And even with the mind reader, just how do you smash in a door without a risk of causing a spark? The house had been doused with five gallons of gasoline, which is highly volatile and explosive. All it would have taken was one spark, say from metal striking against metal, to blow the whole place sky high. Or even just striking a match against the cover when he heard noise on the porch.

Which is actually what happened anyway.

The only difference having LE smash in the door would have been the death of an officer would have been added to this tragedy.

Yes, and they said one of the two gas cans was put right in front of that door. Probably to make sure if someone busted in and opened it, the explosion would have happened immediately and no rescue would have been able to happen.

 

[GrainneDhu]

I have worked with child protection organizations, and the reason that reunification is usually the goal is that there has been quite a bit of research showing that in most cases it leads to better outcomes for the child. Most parents who have their children removed from their custody are not evil - they are people struggling with problems in their lives such as mental illness, poverty, lack of parenting skills, immaturity, etc. With some help, many of them are able to bring their children home and provide good care for them. (And of course, we never hear about all of these cases!)

There are others who should never have their children back. The problem is that sometimes the professionals involved can't always figure out which is which. At least where I live, a lot of this is done according to a checklist, and I suspect that on paper Josh may have looked okay (no previous criminal record, no history of abusing the children, etc.). I don't think there is a place on most of these checklists for "suspected of murdering children's mother."

Tink

It is a tricky balance to strike.

It's obvious with the benefit of hindsight that the potential of psychological and emotional damage of never seeing their father again was less than what did happen to Charlie and Braden.

On the other side of the scale, I have talked to people who felt that they were horribly psychologically traumatised by being removed from their homes as children.

I know one woman who is now in her late 60s, who was removed from her parents when she was 12 even though she remembers their home as loving and adequate. The problem was that her parents were very poor. This woman never married because, ultimately, she had this deep terror of ever being able to trust again; that if she let herself love again, something would happen to yank it away from her.

Also, statistically, children are at higher risk from foster and adoptive parents than the general population of children. Which is heartbreaking, really.

It seems to me that a general "remove children permanently" policy would also cause terrible psychological damage in the very children it is meant to protect.

 

[GrainneDhu]

What was he going to do with all the dry food?

Mormons believe in keeping a years' worth of food staples in the house at all times. Most Mormons keep the food in their own kitchen and rotate through their staples.

I've never heard of or known a Morman family who kept their food in a storage facility but I don't know that many Mormans, so I don't have a good sample size.

 

[dovebar]

The fact that people in the past were removed from homes for their parents being poor, or Native American, or disabled, or other bad reasons was not a good thing.

But the pendulum that swung to correct that - always seek family reunification - has gone too far, with too little attention to what happens to the children long-term.

I would submit that courts need to give the parents fewer chances, but seek reunification with some other family caregiver. In this case, the Coxes WERE family. So was Jennifer and her husband. There were many other good FAMILY options here where JP could still have seen the boys in a controlled setting - if he could stay out of jail.

The notion that he had to have visitation at his HOUSE, because they were working towards "reunification" with JP was what got the kids into a situation that got them killed.

 

[gwenabob]

Mormons believe in keeping a years' worth of food staples in the house at all times. Most Mormons keep the food in their own kitchen and rotate through their staples.

I've never heard of or known a Morman family who kept their food in a storage facility but I don't know that many Mormans, so I don't have a good sample size.

Josh rented that storage locker when he moved up from Utah. I imagine he just never found a compelling reason to move the food storage to either his father's home or the fake visitation house. Why bother?

 

[Dal Gal]

"On Monday, LESA released hundreds of pages in [911 call taker] Lovrak’s personnel file in response to a public records request made by The News Tribune after the incident.

The documents include 32 glowing letters, commendations and awards that date to 1997. They describe a highly valued worker praised for his community involvement and quick thinking.

The file also includes a few reprimands for tardiness, trying to handle a call on his own rather than immediately passing it to dispatchers, and repeatedly sending sexually offensive comments through the agency’s computer-aided dispatch system."

http://www.thenewstribune.com/2012/02/27/2044363/call-taker-in-josh-powell-case.html

 

[AnaTeresa]

"On Monday, LESA released hundreds of pages in [911 call taker] Lovrak’s personnel file in response to a public records request made by The News Tribune after the incident.

The documents include 32 glowing letters, commendations and awards that date to 1997. They describe a highly valued worker praised for his community involvement and quick thinking.

The file also includes a few reprimands for tardiness, trying to handle a call on his own rather than immediately passing it to dispatchers, and repeatedly sending sexually offensive comments through the agency’s computer-aided dispatch system."

http://www.thenewstribune.com/2012/02/27/2044363/call-taker-in-josh-powell-case.html

BBM. Um, WHAT? How, in any way, does that fit with him being a "highly valued worker." Does not compute.

 

[OEJ]

Yes, and they said one of the two gas cans was put right in front of that door. Probably to make sure if someone busted in and opened it, the explosion would have happened immediately and no rescue would have been able to happen.

I guess we know now why Josh chose this method of suicide. He wanted to make sure no one could stop him!

 

[dovebar]

BBM. Um, WHAT? How, in any way, does that fit with him being a "highly valued worker." Does not compute.

To me, that can mean anything from blowing off steam or kibbitzing with a co-worker, "Wasn't that a b*tch?" to accessing *advertiser censored* on the job, which is unfortunately quite common. Unless we have more details, we can't know.

I am more concerned with why the DA in Utah did not send anything for two years. That story seems to have gone stone cold. The Utah press is probably afraid to push it.

 

[Sulamith]

To me, that can mean anything from blowing off steam or kibbitzing with a co-worker, "Wasn't that a b*tch?" to accessing *advertiser censored* on the job, which is unfortunately quite common. Unless we have more details, we can't know.

I am more concerned with why the DA in Utah did not send anything for two years. That story seems to have gone stone cold. The Utah press is probably afraid to push it.

have been looking on Google, to see if the WVPD has released a statement on the Susan Powell killing as her husbnd killed her kids and himself. Is she still listed as a missing person? I cannot find anything that the WVPD has to say. I might not be looking at the right place. I would also like to know what substance the police found on the wet carpet.?? Seems to me they woud tell John Q what they know. I understand that the record were seatle at WVPD , but why? Of course I am not an attorney , but I still want to know why the WVPD id not come out and state the resulults of that wet carpet.

 

[hollyblue]

To me, that can mean anything from blowing off steam or kibbitzing with a co-worker, "Wasn't that a b*tch?" to accessing *advertiser censored* on the job, which is unfortunately quite common. Unless we have more details, we can't know.

I am more concerned with why the DA in Utah did not send anything for two years. That story seems to have gone stone cold. The Utah press is probably afraid to push it.

Me too.
Your right.....they didn't touch it.

 

[Just K]

To me, that can mean anything from blowing off steam or kibbitzing with a co-worker, "Wasn't that a b*tch?" to accessing *advertiser censored* on the job, which is unfortunately quite common. Unless we have more details, we can't know.

I am more concerned with why the DA in Utah did not send anything for two years. That story seems to have gone stone cold. The Utah press is probably afraid to push it.

That could also be a reference to "dirty" or inappropriate jokes being sent or forwarded.

 

[Jacie Estes]

The fact that people in the past were removed from homes for their parents being poor, or Native American, or disabled, or other bad reasons was not a good thing.

But the pendulum that swung to correct that - always seek family reunification - has gone too far, with too little attention to what happens to the children long-term.

I would submit that courts need to give the parents fewer chances, but seek reunification with some other family caregiver. In this case, the Coxes WERE family. So was Jennifer and her husband. There were many other good FAMILY options here where JP could still have seen the boys in a controlled setting - if he could stay out of jail.

The notion that he had to have visitation at his HOUSE, because they were working towards "reunification" with JP was what got the kids into a situation that got them killed.

Any custody issues with American Indian children are addressed by ICWA, Indian Child Welfare Act. [Mississippi Choctaw Indians v. Holyfield - 490 U.S. 30 (1989)] http://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/490/30/ One aspect of this case pertains to children 'being moved across state lines'; this could be extrapolated to include ANY children in a custody issue. In josh's case, he should not have been able to move the boys from their home. IMHO. josh was a POI in Susan's disappearance and as such should have had some restrictions placed on him. Perhaps this case will be a watershed case for changing laws regarding custody and supervision when one parent is missing and the other is a POI. josh was given too many free passes. Braden and Charlie paid the price for that.

ETA: I want to add that in any cases where the one parent is missing and the other is a POI, the children should NOT be restricted from other relatives, as in this case with the boys and the coxes. Perhaps Washington state will change their stance on grandparent's rights.

 

[wenwe4]

Any custody issues with American Indian children are addressed by ICWA, Indian Child Welfare Act. [Mississippi Choctaw Indians v. Holyfield - 490 U.S. 30 (1989)] http://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/490/30/ One aspect of this case pertains to children 'being moved across state lines'; this could be extrapolated to include ANY children in a custody issue. In josh's case, he should not have been able to move the boys from their home. IMHO. josh was a POI in Susan's disappearance and as such should have had some restrictions placed on him. Perhaps this case will be a watershed case for changing laws regarding custody and supervision when one parent is missing and the other is a POI. josh was given too many free passes. Braden and Charlie paid the price for that.

ETA: I want to add that in any cases where the one parent is missing and the other is a POI, the children should NOT be restricted from other relatives, as in this case with the boys and the coxes. Perhaps Washington state will change their stance on grandparent's rights.

I am confused why you included the ICWA laws . . . to my knowledge - no one has stated these 2 children were of Native American descent.

Josh was able to move the children across state lines because he is the boys natural Father. There was no mechanism to keep him in Utah in place at the time (I don't think there ever was). He was not restricted by LE in Utah from moving. Once he got to Washington, the CPS did not have a mechanism to become involved with the children and Josh's parental rights until cops raided ole' man SP's computers.

The allegation of abuse was at Steven's house - all of the threats to risk of harm to the children appeared to be associated with living at SP's house. CPS always works towards removing the risk to the kids. The "sham" house that Josh put together was exactly what was needed to ameliorate the issues that brought the children into care. Josh had the onus of responsiblity to correct the problems, and it appeared that he was doing just that.

The new information that came through about how much was really on his computer in Utah was information that was 2 years old. It was not an allegation of "ongoing" child abuse and neglect.

BTW - we are on the wrong topic. . . . so I will bring this back to the 911 tape release. One thing that always haunted me was the referral to EGH for the supervised visits indicated the first call would be to LE if he tries to flee with the children. EGH did just that but didn't have enough info (ie: knowing about the hatchet & gas) about his intentions to accurately assess what Josh might be doing. Did DCFS have info about Josh's childhood? Mental health history? Criminal history? Josh was such an incredible manipulator - I highly doubt anyone had any inkling of his sinister plans.