2012.02.07 - 911 Tapes Released

[Just K]

Those opinions
http://www.thenewstribune.com/2012/...-powell-used.html?storylink=twt#storylink=cpy
are so very negative. Perhaps if visitation had been denied pending a review of JP's psych evals and the children were kept with their grandparents and if JP had been arrested for anything the story would not have had any such negative outcome. Those comments make it sound like there was no way to protect those children no matter what decisions had been made. That is a very poor precedent to set. It sounds like this man is just throwing his hands up and saying that there was nothing that anyone could have done. I don't believe that and never will. IMO.

As to the dry goods in storage: sounds like JP had considered going into survivalist mode...maybe he considered taking the boys with him...maybe not.

 

[mamamia54]

And, in reading the article, the DAY he lost custody of those children, he no longer had any control, and he lost it. I'm going to take back what I said before about there not being enough time to do something, because at the point, the DAY he lost custody, should have been the day that he needed to be closely watched. ESPECIALLY where the children were concerned. Someone dropped the ball here.

 

[cluciano63]

And, in reading the article, the DAY he lost custody of those children, he no longer had any control, and he lost it. I'm going to take back what I said before about there not being enough time to do something, because at the point, the DAY he lost custody, should have been the day that he needed to be closely watched. ESPECIALLY where the children were concerned. Someone dropped the ball here.

I agree...but once the SW was ordered to take the children to the house on the Sunday, it was too late, IMO...

 

[AnaTeresa]

What was he going to do with all the dry food?

Mormons follow the practice of "provident living" - they are encouraged to have a year's supply of food in case of emergencies. While JP may not have been a practicing Mormon, this may have been a cultural practice he picked up.

 

[Sulamith]

Those opinions
http://www.thenewstribune.com/2012/...-powell-used.html?storylink=twt#storylink=cpy
are so very negative. Perhaps if visitation had been denied pending a review of JP's psych evals and the children were kept with their grandparents and if JP had been arrested for anything the story would not have had any such negative outcome. Those comments make it sound like there was no way to protect those children no matter what decisions had been made. That is a very poor precedent to set. It sounds like this man is just throwing his hands up and saying that there was nothing that anyone could have done. I don't believe that and never will. IMO.

As to the dry goods in storage: sounds like JP had considered going into survivalist mode...maybe he considered taking the boys with him...maybe not.

The LDS have been in surviavilst mode for years: http://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewforum.php?f=2&sid=a22070e82f856283602c84e58a3971fc The people on this website seem extreme to me...but I really do not think Susan Powell would buy into this..despite her being LDS.

 

[Just K]

Each day there seems to be yet another wretched piece to this ugly story. This case needs to be dissected backward and forward, studied by every future Social Worker, CPS worker, Family & Children's Services Provider (Private & Public,) Family Law Attorney, Family Court Judge, 911 operator & dispatcher as well as police and fire personnel. There are lessons to be learned from this case and every detail about this horrible man needs to be made public...sooner than later. Changes need to be made at both the judicial level and within public Departments of Social Services.
At the very least, I wish every future social work professional, as a prerequisite to graduation or certification were required to read a full case study on this topic.
This may end up being a benchmark case for many different professions.

 

[cluciano63]

Not to offend anyone, as I have social workers in my family, but I think the entire idea of CPS is a crapshoot. The cases that end in tragedy often have every warning sign and couldn't be clearer to the untrained eye that the child should not have been with the parent or guardian they ended up with at the time of the tragedy, and yet it keeps happening. If Josh Powell was not prevented from seeing his children, then who would be? I know he wasn't convicted of anything, but isn't the whole idea to protect children from what could happen? Just the fact that he had them living in that "house of *advertiser censored*" his father ran should have been enough, IMO, that coupled with being the only POI in his wife's disappearance and likely murder.

JMO

 

[Dr.Fessel]

The LDS have been in surviavilst mode for years: http://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewforum.php?f=2&sid=a22070e82f856283602c84e58a3971fc The people on this website seem extreme to me...but I really do not think Susan Powell would buy into this..despite her being LDS.

I lived among the Mormons for many years and always felt their 1 year food storage was a great idea. Very similar to the pantry my grandparents kept in the basement.

It would only take one bad growing season in the US or a serious corn or soy bean blight to put us in dire straits. The government use to have a grain storage program that would hold up to 10 years worth of grain for just such a time but that program has been stopped and extra grain sold through out the world or given away to poor nations.

Here is an article about the government grain storage now.

http://www.fourwinds10.net/siterun_data/health/food/news.php?q=1212803067

 

[AnaTeresa]

I lived among the Mormons for many years and always felt their 1 year food storage was a great idea. Very similar to the pantry my grandparents kept in the basement.

It would only take one bad growing season in the US or a serious corn or soy bean blight to put us in dire straits. The government use to have a grain storage program that would hold up to 10 years worth of grain for just such a time but that program has been stopped and extra grain sold through out the world or given away to poor nations.

Here is an article about the government grain storage now.

http://www.fourwinds10.net/siterun_data/health/food/news.php?q=1212803067

And it's not just a survivalist, end-of-times mindset. Say you lost your job - having that buffer there would help. It was something I had never heard of until a Mormon coworker, but I think it's a great idea, even if it's only clean water storage. It's good to be prepared.

 

[Dum-Dum Sucker]

A Megaphone is what is used in many hostage situations. The point here is that time constraints pretty much eliminated that possibility.

In addition to the Court's ruling to maintain the "visitation plan," of a man who had just been told that the only way a change in custody would take place would be revisited after he completed the necessary court-ordered psych evals, was the fact that the State's Department of Social & Health Services somehow believes that it was A-OK to send a contracted worker into such a volatile situation.

Why is it that DSHS would send a contracted worker versus an employee who has had at least 4 or 5 years education and training to "supervise" any Court-ordered visitations...no less send such a worker to supervise those of a suspected murderer? It's just unbelievable.



Social Workers (workers with BSWs, MSWs and LCSWs, whose focus is youth and families) are specifically trained. They are educated/trained. They are taught to be skeptical of a parent or guardian's behaviors, actions and to read between the lines. Through coursework in Human Growth and Development, specifically childhood development and through repeated dealings with all types of family arrangements and guardians they are familiar with the many childhood attachment disorders. They learn that children, no matter how extremely abused, will often want to be with their abusive parent/guardian. It is very common but that does not mean that the parent has the interest of the child as his priority. Social Workers are trained to see these subtle nuances. A contracted worker who is required to go through a 20 hour course on foster care, who is physically out paced by 5 and 7 year olds and who could be so easily overpowered, by a man (suspected of murdering a woman...his wife) who was half her age should never have been sent to supervise any court-ordered home visits.

Denying custody to a natural parent is not done in a vacuum. The courts do not do this on a whim. There is typically ample evidence or suspicion before a child is taken away and then kept out of the family home and away from their natural parent/parents. At the very least, the supervisor/worker must keep that at the forefront of their mind. The courts have deemed this parent, for the time being, as unfit. The courts have continued to require supervision. So, in the court's view, there is some reason to believe that the parent or guardian requires supervision. Yet, DSHS thinks it fine to send the least skilled/trained/educated/prepared workers out on their most dangerous cases (court-ordered supervised visitation) and at the home of the court deemed unfit parent, to boot. Now, does that make any sense?

It is baffling. I agree with you 100%.

 

[dovebar]

http://abc.go.com/watch/2020/SH559026/VD55170303/2020-210-sins-of-the-father (start at 15:32)

One thing that struck me in the 20/20 episode and the taped phone interview with the DSHS rep was when she stated the agency's primary goal, in this case, was family reunification.

Why do these agencies put the horse before the cart? I will never understand...I've heard all the arguments...but after more than a quarter of a century of hearing this worn out school of thought...perhaps it is time to revisit child custody and child welfare. If a parent is deemed unfit to parent their own child then why is it always the State's first goal to reunite the family? State Courts, nationwide, and the Federal Government have stated that the main goal, in child welfare cases, is to do what is in the best interest of the child. Yet, so many agencies continue to default to the practice of putting the parents wishes before the welfare of the child/children.

It is MOO, that parents should have a limited amount of time and chances to prove that they can comply with court orders and prove that they are fit and capable of parenting their children, without any attempts by said parent to manipulate the established court orders to fit their schedule, wishes, etc. A parent who is unwilling to follow the court orders to a "T" is, IMO, thumbing his/her nose at authority.

I agree. What's worse, my understanding of the "science" that this goal is based on is largely that children report wanting to go back to their parents! Just as these boys were happy to see daddy - even though we know he abused them, refused to let them talk about their mommy, turned them against their loving grandparents, refused to feed them....But kids also report wanting to eat candy all day. Children don't actually know what's good for them. That's OUR job to figure out.

 

[Concerned Papa]

After the explosion, detectives searched a Powell family storage unit. In it, they found water and sealed buckets of dried foods, including beans.

"Tons of food," Sanders said.

"Also gas cans," Wood said. "We believe he got the gas from the storage shed."

The two cans found at the house were like the cans in the shed, he said, and there is evidence Powell had researched the explosive properties of gasoline.

Read more here: http://www.thenewstribune.com/2012/...-powell-used.html?storylink=twt#storylink=cpy

BBM

"Tons of food"? Sounds almost like it could be a warehouse for a business.

Wonder if he had some kind of a "Disasters R Us" business gig going down as his source of otherwise unexplained cash on hand?

 

[gwenabob]

BBM

Correct - they didn't die from the hatchet wounds. According to reports, the ME stated they died from smoke inhalation.

I don't think LE would have kicked in the door upon arrival, but it's possible that they may have been able to talk to him long enough that someone may have been able to intervene to save the boys' lives, if LE had been dispatched before JP set the house on fire.

Many mistakes were made in this case. I don't think it's helpful at all to sweep them under the rug and shrug our shoulders and say nothing could have been done to prevent it.

The only way to learn from mistakes is to acknowledge them, study them, and figure out what could have been done differently, so as not to make the same mistakes again.

Actually, I think if LE showed up and smelled the gasoline and Josh refused to answer the door, they would be justified in breaking the door down, and they probably would have.

 

[Dr.Fessel]

BBM

"Tons of food"? Sounds almost like it could be a warehouse for a business.

Wonder if he had some kind of a "Disasters R Us" business gig going down as his source of otherwise unexplained cash on hand?

I bet you are right. There is no way he transported all his stuff from Utah and that in one truck.

 

[dovebar]

I bet you are right. There is no way he transported all his stuff from Utah and that in one truck.

Or did someone else in the family, like SP, stock this unit in case they ever needed to go on the run?

 

[cluciano63]

Actually, I think if LE showed up and smelled the gasoline and Josh refused to answer the door, they would be justified in breaking the door down, and they probably would have.

Justified, perhaps, but wouldn't the police likely to have been killed as well? JP would have heard the door-breaking down and lit the match, IMO. There would be more bodies, not less...JMO

 

[gwenabob]

Or did someone else in the family, like SP, stock this unit in case they ever needed to go on the run?

Naw, like they said upthread, this was just part of their food storage. Most Mormons store food (now you know where to go when disaster strikes!) and this was probably from his Utah home. LDS are encouraged to have a year's supply of food, clothing, blankets, toiletries, etc. plus water storage, plus savings that will pay your expenses for 6 months. They are not expected to gather that all at once, but to work toward it diligently.

 

[dovebar]

Naw, like they said upthread, this was just part of their food storage. Most Mormons store food (now you know where to go when disaster strikes!) and this was probably from his Utah home. LDS are encouraged to have a year's supply of food, clothing, blankets, toiletries, etc. plus water storage, plus savings that will pay your expenses for 6 months. They are not expected to gather that all at once, but to work toward it diligently.

I have never heard of anyone storing gasoline. Sterno or propane for a stove, yes.

 

[Just K]

Storing gasoline is very dangerous, too. In the heat of the summer some of those storage units can get dangerously hot. In a case in Virginia, a few years back, two little brothers went into the family shed where apparently the family kept gasoline for the lawn mower, edger, etc. I don't remember all the details but somehow the shed had a high concentration of gas fumes. IIRC, one of the boys caused some type of spark and the shed exploded. IDK, the final outcome but the boys were horrifically burned and were airlifted to a nationally renowned children's burn unit in Boston.

JP was apparently storing a few cans. Media quoted the Fire & Rescue spokesman as saying the cans were similar to the ones found in the home. Those were five gallon cans...imagine what that storage unit smelled like.

 

[SmoothOperator]

Here's the rub for me.. The fact of whether they could save these boys lives is totally and completely separate from the 911 operator's piss poor unprofessional job he performed... Just because the boys couldn't have been saved in ts particular, situation. IT IN NO WAY EXCUSES THE UNPROFESSIONAL JOB PERFORMED BY THE THIS MAN!!! PERIOD!!!!! THERE ARE THOUSANDS OF SITUATIONS THAT WILL HINGE ON HIS JOB PERFORMANCE AND LITERALLY MAKE ALL THE DIFFERENCE BTWN LIFE AND DEATH!! And this a huge problem and not just of members of wS but is a disturbing problem for LE as well..