A fresh look at all test results

[not_my_kids]

That's it? One partial hair sample, split. The rest is Air Tests. (new science - not yet used in court like DNA.)

Uh oh.

They have only one partial hair sample (Q12) that was divided for two tests ???!!!

Wow. I wondered how much DNA evidence they had, given LE's reluctance to talk about the nature & strength of the DNA evidence. We kept hearing LE hedging, back in Sept/Oct that "The forensic evidence considered, not by a hair sample alone, but in its entirety suggests that ..." We kept hearing about a hair with a "death band". Then, LE statements became much more confident. I felt sure they'd have more significant DNA samples to work with. At least a little something from the carpet? But nothing? Just odor from the carpet? Are they holding back carpet fluid evidence? Do we know if this is the entire range of DNA evidence they have? (Pauses for deep breath...)

(I understand that they need 16-20 hair samples for a test to be significant & considered accurate. See this link for more on DNA samples from the FBI: http://www.fbi.gov/hq/lab/fsc/backissu/april2005/standards/2005_04_standards02.htm )

Well, I haven't posted in eons, as I'm a fact-hound, and less interested in speculating. However, ... these forensics ... concern me greatly – quite frankly, I feel a bit underwhelmed with the scientific evidence – clearly enough to post my worries.

(Thank goodness for the dogs. How I love the dogs. We still have the dogs!)

Perhaps THIS is the reason they can't seek DP? They have weak science ... hole-poking will not be difficult ... Perhaps Kobi has been skeptical of the forensics for good reason - these test results are like swiss cheese. Yup old Miss Emma is very concerned. Will it be a highly circumstantial case? They must be saving the best circumstantial evidence for last ...

I would also like to thank our OP, butwhatif? for her organizational research. I hadn't had time to do this, and have been wanting to. I certainly would not have found the time around the holidays. TYVM!

Somebody with experience,feel free make me feel better! In the meantime, I'll "be-moaning" the missing forensics over in chat.

JMHO, as always, my sleuthing friends… :blowkiss:

And now, we see why certain people among us have not been so sure about a murder conviction since the day the tests started coming back. If this is what they have, I am highly concerned. Highly, highly concerned.

 

[TxLady2]

And now, we see why certain people among us have not been so sure about a murder conviction since the day the tests started coming back. If this is what they have, I am highly concerned. Highly, highly concerned.

Me, too!

 

[Wudge]

From these test results, the defense will make two key points.

First, none of the test results prove that human decomposition occurred in the car trunk.

Second, none of the test results evidences manslaughter or a premeditated murder.

 

[jjgram]

I wanted to say " THANK YOU Whatif " , it was very nice and helpful of
you to take the extra time to do this work !
It is very nice of you to be helping in the Truth & Justice for
Little ANGEL CAYLEE ! ! !
God Bless E V E R Y O N E ~~~ who is helping !!!
M E R R Y * * * CHRIST MAS ! ! !
jjgram:clap::clap:

 

[thelmadawg]

I had previously missed an interview on WFTV with Dr. Baden in which he brings this up.

Most of the pundits say the trunk hair is not conclusive -- midocondrial, blah, blah.

But, if the trunk hair matches the hair at the scene, it seems to me it would be very damning. :waitasec:

 

[donnam]

I will bet my years salary it will match.

 

[LCoastMom]

I guess it would prove it's not KC's hair...

 

[Kat]

This is why I'm pretty sure LE has more in their hand than they are showing right now. That one hair will be "reasonable doubt" to a jury if well presented by the defense and I just can't wait to hear JB tell the court that KC toted a dead pig to a roast in the trunk or that the car was left at AMSCOT with the ignition key so Zanny could use it to tote a pig to a roast and nobody is actually dead. Surely a grand jury wouldn't have indicted without more than what we see.

Bolding and underline by me.

Oh geez this is so OT but here goes...KC claims that her imaginary nanny is of PR descent (half PR half african american).

But I had to pause when you typed that Clock's Tickin and here's the reason why~ my Husband is PR (full PR born in NYC).

So it is called Lechon in PR and Lechón Asado in Cuba and it is prepared in most other countries with latinos. I can't really believe that Baez would use a defense like that but had to just throw that out there because I found it strange.

 

[Patty G]

test, test

 

[Rumpole]

I know. If there had been a pizza in the trunk, it would have made some sense to try and blame the smell on it. But if they were going to make something up, why not pork chops or chicken nuggets? Something more convincing than pizza. I don't get it either.

Now if they had said there was a dead pig in the trunk, they might have gotten away with it. Course, how do you explain a dead pig in your car trunk?

My reading is that the lab successfully worked to cover even remote possibilities. Even though there was NO PIZZA just an empty box, they did a control test using an actual piece of mushroom and pepperoni pizza and the original box. Left to "Rot" and then tested. They further did a control using samples from a separate car (actually 3 cars) from a junk yard to control for emissions with no pizza or suspect fluids or garbage. Samples also collected from the infamous garbage bag. The report goes on, but to cut a long story short, to me it goes some way to preempting any defence claims about garbage or pizza being responsible for the Human decomposition products found in KC's car.

Chloroform is another issue that I have argued with others. I think the unusually high levels can be explained away very easily, certainly to the standard of reasonable doubt, so at this stage I hope the prosecution does not pursue that. Of course my position would be quite different if the body remains show ingestion of chloroform.

 

[Rumpole]

From these test results, the defense will make two key points.

First, none of the test results prove that human decomposition occurred in the car trunk.

Second, none of the test results evidences manslaughter or a premeditated murder.

Overall the test results very strongly indicate human decomposition and specifically not likely other animals. Scientists rarely use absolute terms because nothing in life is absolute, but this report is very strong.
Results themselves do not show the manner of death, but taken as a whole the circumstantial evidence of a decaying body being placed in a trunk is a strong inicator of foul play and suggests against an accident. Under normal circumstances we do not expect the mother of a child that has died from an accident to shove them in the trunk of a car.

 

[Rumpole]

REPLY TO EMMA PEEL


I am sure there is lots more exciting science to come.

After learning that the Anthony clean-up squad had been over the car for hours, I was pleased LE got as much as they did.

Just 1 hair, but from a dead person and from the results we have it's either Caylee or KC. I'm out of my comfort zone, but I am guessing it could even be from CA or her mother (Don't quote me). The only dead Anthony female (so far) is Caylee, so it's her hair from her corpse. Also there was a corpse decomposing in the trunk for 2/3 days. There is no reasonable theory that includes another corpse as well as a hair from Caylee's corpse.
I thought we were told of at least a few other hairs, but you are right, we only have reports based on a single hair here. Perhaps more to come?

 

[Rumpole]

I had previously missed an interview on WFTV with Dr. Baden in which he brings this up.

Most of the pundits say the trunk hair is not conclusive -- midocondrial, blah, blah.

But, if the trunk hair matches the hair at the scene, it seems to me it would be very damning. :waitasec:

The hair in the trunk already "Matches" the remains found.

The remains found are possitively a full DNA match to Caylee. The hair sample from the trunk is mitochondially matched to an Anthony female.

 

[Rumpole]

I guess it would prove it's not KC's hair...

If by some wild chance the hair in the trunk did not match the remains, it would indicate that Caylee is not related to KC?!!! We know that is not true!

 

[Rumpole]

Bolding and underline by me.

Oh geez this is so OT but here goes...KC claims that her imaginary nanny is of PR descent (half PR half african american).

But I had to pause when you typed that Clock's Tickin and here's the reason why~ my Husband is PR (full PR born in NYC).

So it is called Lechon in PR and Lechón Asado in Cuba and it is prepared in most other countries with latinos. I can't really believe that Baez would use a defense like that but had to just throw that out there because I found it strange.

It ain't pig decomposition. Results were compared to known results for common animal sources. viz: dog, dear, pig.

JB could roll the dice and try to revive the old squirrel joke, but I am sure that source could be eliminated. (Once everybody stopped laughing)

 

[Where's Andre]

Hairs and fibers collected from specimens Q23 through Q28 have been preserved on glass microscope slides and in vacuum canisters for possible future comparisons.

I'd hazard a guess that a whole lot of these future comparisons are going on right now.

 

[BlOnDe_GuRrL]

wow! 100pts for butwhatif
we should sticky this.
thanks so much for putting all that time and effort into that! :blowkiss:

 

[Where's Andre]

From these test results, the defense will make two key points.

First, none of the test results prove that human decomposition occurred in the car trunk.

(bolding above, mine)

Yet, hair with alleged evidence of decomposition belonging to a maternal family member of the victim and defendant was found in the trunk. How did it get there?

Second, none of the test results evidences manslaughter or a premeditated murder.

Not in isolation. Combine evidence of chloroform in the trunk with alleged searches for chloroform, and possible available sources of, or precusors to, residues of making chloroform, and formulas or recipes for making chloroform etc, etc, etc.

These are preliminary results... this was the start, and by far and away not the end of the forensic case. Just enough to help get an indictment of the special order Anthony Ham Sandwich-- hold the Kool-Aid.

 

[ZubenElSchemali]

Finally we wish to discuss the possiblity that these chemical signatures are of human origin. The decomposition odor products of animal remains (dog, deer, pig-primarily bone) have been studied since these are the most commonly encountered in outdoor environments. these animals can be ditinguished from human remains by the percentages of certain classes of chemicals (keytones, amides, aldehydes and alcohols).

Since "primarily bone" decomp from pig is being compared, I think it will not be substantial to rule out that the chemicals found are only present with human decomp. I still have the question I've asked elsewhere. Is carbon tetrachloride never present in the early stages of pig or pork composition? If there was a bag of garbage there could have been trimmings from pork. Even though pork is considered unclean and not kosher by Jewish people and others, it still is remarkable like human, even being used in medicine. Now this may be the reason it is considered unclean. It may be like cannibalism to them. Even Jesus is said to cast human demons (likely virus or bacteria) into pigs. Now, I've searched and searched to find something that says this chemical isn't present in pig decomp but haven't been able to find anything yet. Also, it is still being manufactured (was not long ago very near the Anthony home, I believe) and could still show up in various ways, especially things imported, I'm sure. Look what they are finding coming from China. It has been widely used as a fire extinguisher and in refrigerants, along with being a drycleaning solvent. It has been less used since the 80s but still could be around, I'm sure. I had some steam cleaning products still around from then, until just recently when I went on a disposal binge, not used because I don't have carpet in my home, only wood and tile.

How interesting, my paternal grandmother's maiden name is Swinehart. :waitasec:

Then there is the question of the hair banding, I've also mentioned elsewhere. The pdf article I took this from, "From ESTIMATING THE POSTMORTEM INTERVAL IN FORENSIC CASES THROUGH THE ANALYSIS OF POSTMORTEM DETERIORATION OF HUMAN HEAD HAIR
By Jamie Hughes Collier B.S., Northwestern State University, 2001

“Fifteen to 25 scalp hairs were pulled from nine cadavers located in the outdoor field of the University of Tennessee Anthropological Research Facility. In addition, 15 hairs were pulled from a living 59-year-old, Caucasian male to be used as a control.”

Isn't this the Tennessee body farm? Notice the live control sample has the band and only those with PMI longer than 90 days have a dark as opposed to yellow band. Was this body in the trunk 90 after death? Impossible since Caylee was seen alive only a month prior. Was it yellow rather than black? Then it could have been Cindy or her mother's hair, live donors. The two attachments from this article, in my mind, raise doubts as to whether that was Caylee's hair in the trunk, or even that it came from a dead person if it was a lighter colored band rather than dark.

 

[Kat]

It ain't pig decomposition. Results were compared to known results for common animal sources. viz: dog, dear, pig.

JB could roll the dice and try to revive the old squirrel joke, but I am sure that source could be eliminated. (Once everybody stopped laughing)

It's clear that it's not animal decomp. I went back and reread the forensic summary on this test. What concerns me is that although the scientist that conducted this test said in effect "that a portion of the total odor signature identified in the Florida vehicle trunk is consistent with a decompositional event that could be of human origin".

It is worded as could be.

Then the report summary goes on to say: "The results still do not rule out the remote possibility that an unusual variety of products or materials (not present at the time of vehicle discovery) may have had some contribution to the overall chemical signature"

Now I know it is my understanding that these are preliminary findings on tests. That, more than likely, we will find that more tests were run. We just don't have those results yet.

So thanks to Wudge answering some questions for me on another thread, it is my concern that although "my own interpretation" in what was summarized tells me one thing (KC killed her daughter Caylee, and Caylee's body was in that trunk), the interpretation of these results (if allowed into court as evidence) can be argued as to be not conclusive proof. S'all I'm trying to say